RSO - Extraction Methods - Bioavailability - Contradiction & BS?

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PsyCro

Well-Known Member
Ok, i'm going nutty with all this contradicting information on the web so i'm hoping we can put our heads together and make sense of it. First for reference, a pdf which many of you have already seen:

Homepage

Next, info that I find contradicting and eye opening:

- Rick Simspon over and over has stated the importance of the many cannabinoids in cannabis
.. many of which are killed off using the Naptha method

- Rick Simpson also states the importance of using several strains to make the oil
.. this makes sense if you desire the sum attributes of the strains, but doesn't make sense in that the sum attributes come mostly from terpenes/phenols which are killed of using the Naptha method

- The high THC level (mostly only THC is even extracted) from the Naptha method, from what i have read leaves people feeling about the same as when people take Marinol
.. an alternative method for extracting high levels of THC, and a pharmaceutic with only a high THC level, hm, don't very much like that correlation

- Lots of info on the net that i have seen, including from 'people in the know', calls for coconut oil as an alternative, which is supposedly much better than olive oil because its gets absorbed better in the liver
.. cannabinoids are simply fat soluble as far as i know, and are absorbed in the intestinal tract, and are THEN passed via blood through the liver at which point the type of oil used makes no difference

- Many people are reporting excellent results using Ethanol for extraction and are using it to avoid the more dangerous solvents
.. in the study above olive oil extracts more cannabinoids than even ethanol

So, i'm having a hard time not believing that Olive Oil is THE best method. Possibly use 1 to 1.5L of oil to 500grams of dry material, and then administer teaspoon doses 3 times daily.

Any thoughts peeps ??
 
Really, no opinions?? I hope i haven't come across as arrogant or condescending, but my brain is in overdrive trying to compute all the information i've found. :loopy:

Basically i'm trying to inform myself as much as possible so that i can make the most of my first grow which should be done in about 2.5 months, and hopefully kick cancers butt!! :cheer:

In any case, contradicting info seems to be about, so feel free to chime in if you agree or disagree ..
 
I'm with you on the contradictory information, never liked the idea of using toxic chemicals to extract so I always just stuck to making edibles with butter. If I were to do oil I'd be inclined to try Olive Oil over the alternatives I've seen. For my butter I just grind up 1oz to an Oregano/Paprika seasoning consistency and throw it in crock with 1lb of butter for minimum of 14 hours, generally closer to 24 hours on low setting and strain it out then throw in fridge. Some folks add water to capture some of the impurities but I don't bother with that personally. I try to do everything as organic as possible so I even use organic butter :)

:peace:
 
Hi PsyCro,

Welcome to 420 Magazine.com. I just read the study of different extraction methods. First time I've read this research article. I pretty much stay off the net., for my intel. There is so much information that has been edited, altered and vague explanations I stopped unless its something I can verify from my experience using the cannabis concentrated oil. The study you posted the first thing that stood out was the 20 minute agitate cycle on the 1,2 & 3 solvents. That time used to agitate a.k.a. wash is 14 minutes more than I use. I'm no chemist or lab technician but I would be interested to see the results using a 6 minute agitate/wash. Looking back to when I started using the concentrate I feel like I got lucky on my 'leap of faith'. I ran across the Rick Simpson video 'Run from the Cure' and followed up going to his website Phoenix Tears' while doing some research for a friend with Parkinson's Disease. My health was in a bad way and needed to do something. I was a little wary to make my own concentrate so I watched the process about 8 times to make sure I understood the procedures. When I felt confident I got the basic equipment, some high end cannabis and at that time I used Isopropyl Alcohol 99.8% (switched to 190 proof grain alcoholl) . Started to medicate using the 'gum' method. Next month will be two to complete years, even though it seems a lot longer. During that time I was learning everything I could about the concentrated oil and what it did for me. I wanted to learn as much as I could to see what was the truth and what was BS. I pretty much had blinders on to the outside world besides my family and friends. After about a year and a half I took the blinders off and wanted to start spreading the word on cannabis concentrated oil. I will stand by what Rick Simpson has stated on his video and his website. I laughed in quite a few places watching run from the cure. Being a long time cannabis smoker I could not believe you could lose weight, would not need man made meds and would never have to go to the doctor. I've watched the video over a dozen times now. Besides some vague parts that where edited so it could be shown to the public, using the whole plant instead of buds/flowers and the actual application method, its the REAL DEAL and more. Understand the big Pharmies keep the misinformation going full speed to cause confusion and they do an excellent job. Also all the articles, lab reports and videos that where put on the net. to provide people about cannabis awareness had to be edited to be shown. The shame about this is there is so much valuable information and it is useless because of the edits. So in hopes people could read in between the lines, people such as yourself thinking they are healing cancer in fact could die. One such video right from the start states that CBD kills cancer and THC is good for pain and inflammation. Complete opposite. People run out and start spreading the word CBD concentrate kills cancer. THC kills cancer cells by covering the cancer cell cutting off the blood supply and imploding the cancer cell, and CBD reduces inflammation and takes care of pain. I've found a lot of information posted on 'weed maps' to be false. Again, people posting this information think they are helping but in fact don't know about the incorrect information.

Lets go back and discuss Rick Simpson as a lot of the comparisons in the study you posted used him as an example. Naphtha is a good example as this is his prefered solvent/carrier. I know Rick Simpson has been using the concentrated oil for at least 6 years based off of the release of 'run from the cure'. He looks pretty healthy to me. Even with the trace elements left in his concentrate. Ether was Rick Simpsons top pick by the way, but, was hard to get and expensive. Here is the issue on solvents like that. Rick Simpson has had a lot of experience making his concentrate. The concern we have is what about a person making his concentrate for the first time. People always want to get as much product as they can, and might not cook enough of the poisonous solvent/carriers. Ingest too much and get poisoned, liver damage or worst. Also I would like to mention Hexane. Hexane reagent food grade is used in a lot of food we consume and used to make a lot of pharmaceuticals. The study mentions it as poisonous.

All the studies I've seen to date in research never seem to have correct information. Its always a test that really isn't done the way Rick Simpson does it or for that matter the way I do it. Maybe the extra 14 minutes setting in the solvents ruins the terpenes or degrades thc and other cannabinoids?

Then there is no scientific evidence that the cannabis concentrated oil kills cancer. Why is that? Simply because who would you get to do the study? The medical system in place balks at cannabis. I haven't read any where that a scientist wants to volunteer for the study. While we are on this subject do some research on anxiety/depression/panic attacks, all speculation and no scientific evidence. Look at the cancer treatments in place. Chemo. Side effects are cancer, same with late stage radiation. In the mean time people are coming out in news articles that their daughter/son/family member has been cured using cannabis concentrated oil. It show dramatic improvement on epilepsy and the list keeps growing and growing.

It is confusing to say the least. If you haven't read this thread I highly recommend it. A lot of details I don't want to repeat that are already stated. And soon there will be some updates that will be of great benefit to you. Cannabis Oil Dosing Tutorial: Tacking Method
Read the entire thread. There are some people coming in to discredit the concentrate as well as the ones taking it correctly.

I hope this helped you out. I know what results I would pick. Rick Simpsons, except to use a food grade carrier and the vague dosing procedure. I bet my health on it and have changed some peoples health on the way. It will all come down to your decision. Final mention, Rick Simpson concentrated oil was a lot higher than this chart showed. Also they are telling you to digest the concentrates, WRONG ! Not before using the 'gum' method and that is greatly improved by the 'tacking' method described in the link I provided for you.


Motoco
 
Thanks for the in depth reply Motoco. But alas, another contradiction. RS states that food grade alcohol is sub par compared to naptha and ISO and that it is a shame to waste bud using those types of solvents, but you and others seem to have great success nonetheless. And that is what is irritating the heck out of me, as i'm sure you can understand. But on the other hand i'm glad to hear it, because it shows that people are succeeding usual more natural methods, which goes with what i currently believe in that i see the oil as a treatment which is as good now, as it was hundreds or even thousands of years ago.. strain dependent of course.

Other than that, if the 20 minute method from the study adversely affected THC and/terpenes, it should have done so in all the solvent methods.. but instead, THC was high with naptha, and terpenes were high with the other solvents.

Anyhow, if you're having good luck with food grade alcohol, i certainly don't see why i shouldn't go with olive oil. I know it sounds like my mind is already made up, but i'm definitely open to new information nonetheless.

At the moment i'm thinking as mentioned above, 1-1.5L for two hours, and after straining, redo the procedure using 0.5L of fresh oil (which at that point should be enough to cover the material) for a total of 1.5-2L of oil. And then dosing would be using teaspoon doses, one to two 3 times daily. Even swishing it around the mouth for a minute or more before swallowing could replace the gum dab you mention.

As far as terpenes and cannabinoids are concerned, here are a couple of links you might find interesting if you haven't already seen them:

Decarboxylation | Skunk Pharm Research LLC

Cannabinoid and Terpene Info | Skunk Pharm Research LLC
 
I appreciate you posting the question. It is great info. Best can be a little subjective but it appears that in general, olive oil looks like a great method. With that said, if you grow and you are using fermentation to add CO2 to increase yield, you will have alcohol that just needs to be distilled. If that is the caws, then your best method would probably be Ethanol. I will have to go back and check but it does seem olive oil would be the safest method. Alcohol and heat do not always get along.
 
The saga continues on correct intel. I'm dealing with unexpected PC crashes. It gets irritating as heck, loosing my train of thought and having to redo what I already replied to. I stand corrected on the THC pull using naphtha as I was referring to the terpenes when it should of been THC.

99.8 percent ISO is going to have a better pull than 95% grain alcohol, and pure ethanol is going to have a better pull than 95 % ethanol. I have never have used naphtha so I cannot comment. Understand, also as mentioned in my previous post, our position at 420 Magazine.com is to have strick safety precautions in place. I'm not disputing which solvent has better pulling power between the cannabinoids/terpenes etc., just if its not made correctly its the consumption of toxins that is the concern. All but the olive oil is highly flammable especially using a double boiler method, so a well ventilated area is required. I also never have done the olive oil process. The way I medicate the concentrate on the gum I don't think 'tacking' 50% olive oil into my CB1 receptors sounds appealing. I think I would prefer the coconut oil over the olive oil, but again, taking twice as much for the same potency level doesn't appeal to me. Not to mention instead of a 60 gram treatment for cancer now its 120 grams. Just my opinion. I have a portable testing device ordered that will give all the data of the potency level of the cannabinoids and terpenes allegedly calibrated to a GC. I'm not only anxious to test these difference's in solvents but also testing the flowers harvested at peak THC, mid term, full term and beyond to make custom meds for different needs. For example, if someone needs something for chronic pain it would be high in CBD compared to cancer needing high THC. A 1.5% CBD tincture took away pain my wife had for 3-4 hours. Imagine having a 20% CBD concentrate for chronic pain? As far as mixing strains Rick Simpson was referring to sativa, indica and hybrids and what they are used for. Depression, anxiety, sleep, appetite, etc. I would also like to mention Rick Simpson keeps updating his site. I cannot be sure the exact reasons but as knowledge is gained about the concentrated oils so do methods of use and application. I've updated things quite a bit also whether its technique, safety or gained knowledge through experience.

I get all my info from Skunk Pharm Research when comes to concentrates. Much respect for the team and their knowledge. I use basically two references, them and 420 Magazine.com. In my opinion Skunk Pharm have the best decarboxylation information and a lot of DYI projects. Major biggie is their experience, they been around for quite some time and I consider a trusted source.

PsyCro, if you don't mind me asking what type of cancer do you have and what stage is it in?
 
Its not me with cancer, but my mother-in-law. Early stages of pancreatic cancer to be exact. With the price of oil on the black market it was kind of a no brainer for me to go at it myself. Definitely kudos to Skunkpharm, its a big hand they're giving to the movement!!

The CB1 receptor is part of the nervous system, so either way you are not applying oil directly to it via the mouth i'm sure. Btw. i'll be using homemade olive oil if i go that route, and believe me its nice to the tounge :;): . I'm not sure what you mean though by doubling the amount from 60 to 120 grams.. could you explain?

This device that you mention sounds very interesting for sure, any links to the product? Kudos for going all out to do some tests yourself, could be infinitely useful for all of us here! Will you be doing test any time soon?
 
Thanks for the heads up who had cancer. She is lucky pancreatic cancer was detected early.

Applying the concentrated oil directly to your gums it is absorbed through the gum into blood vessels. That area is closet to you CB1 receptors. It goes to your CB1 receptors because of the decarboxylation process. If you simply digested the oil without applying to you're gums you become euphoric and the healing properties become different. That is what Rick Simpson is all about. Not the discovery of the concentrated oil, its been around a long time. His claim to fame is reinventing the application method. The gum application. I went a step farther and made sure the concentrate 'sticks' to the gum which greatly reduces the chance of becoming euphoric. Also after starting out with 3 small grain's of rice and building up to a gram a day for cancer I encourage dosing 6-10 times a day. Not only much easier amounts to handle but keeps the concentrate regulated on a more consistent level reducing high and low spikes.

I was referring to 'olive oil 11' method. A milliliter is a unit of volume and the gram is a unit of mass. 10 grams of plant material plus 100 ml of olive oil, warm up for 120 minutes in a double boiler method, cooled down, then the oil is separated from the plant via a french press. I fail to see that the olive oil and cannabis oil is separated. Unless I'm missing something. It would seem quite a bit of olive oil is left in the concentrate. That would cut down the potency quite a bit I would think. So in comparison to a dose size of a grain of rice of the ethanol method I would think you would need at least twice that amount of the olive oil 11 method for the same potency.

We had different objectives while seeking alternative methods. I was in bad health when I seen Run From the Cure. My focus was on what the concentrated oil cured using Rick Simpsons knowledge. I used his tutorial to make the concentrate. Besides knowing he said he uses buds/flowers instead of the whole plant that is shown on his video I didn't pay much attention to the art of making cannabis concentrated oil as much as I was into simplicity. Since that time I've changed my solvent to ethanol/grain alcohol, added a quick-wash method using frozen bud/flowers and get the alcohol down to 0 for 24 hrs. Then instead of the food warmer/coffee mug warmer I use the decarboxylation method via the double boiler method. So when I was talking about what I believe Rick Simpson says besides a couple of vague topics already discussed, all the medical marvels he claims is what I'm referring to as I believe these also. So when you speak about loss of terpenes and cannabinoids and what he states about these and different strains maybe we take these into different context's. I know I learned so many things it heals as he has stated. I'm also learning to grow and learning more and more about the concentrates and different ways to make them.
This is the device I was talking about. MyDx

Unfortunately the one I ordered was the multi-use one so I could also check for chemicals, etc. and it won't arrive until Christmas as far as I know. What a difference that will make. Then a lot of answers will come forth. I cannot afford to run down or send out for different results. Proof in the pudding is what we all are after. Best of luck on whatever decisions you make. Any way we can help, let us know and keep us posted.
ps. I'm curious as you posted a link for the decarboxylation process. Did you read what it does and the purpose?
 
Well unfortunately it's one of the worst kinds of cancer, but there is always a glimmer of hope with the right motivation. Doing a light juicing regime, aloe arborescens and honey recipe, reiki, and it seems to be helping somewhat. Hopefully the chemo she i starting won't do more harm than good.

Haven't seen much info actually on the 'gum' method but will research it to find out more. The actual medicinal difference and absorption between that and actual ingestion is certainly worth exploring.

Having done edibles myself way back with butter, i know that after straining, the weed is thrown away naturally because the important substances have been transferred to the butter. Same thing goes with the olive oil i suppose. But that's why i was thinking to put the weed through oil twice to extract as much as possible, just as is done with other solvents. You mentioned "It would seem quite a bit of olive oil is left in the concentrate" .. well, the olive oil IS the concentrate, and you would end up taking teaspoon doses as i mentioned, or was i not clear on that? Instead of 60grams of concentrated oil for a pound of weed, you would have approx. 1.5liters of olive oil to take over the course of 90 days.

As far as decarbing is concerned i understand what it does, converting acid version of cannabinoids to active. The olive oil method decarbs 'en route', so there seems to be no need for prior decarbing, especially since decarbing could potentially kill terpenes depending on temperature and duration.. at least that is what i have gathered over the duration of my personal research. Decarbing weed/concentrates before or after extraction with solvets makes sense though.

Really really nice piece of equipment that MyDx! Hopefully the project works out and the products works as advertised. Heck for the money i'd even say it's dirt cheap!!
 
Really really nice piece of equipment that MyDx! Hopefully the project works out and the products works as advertised. Heck for the money i'd even say it's dirt cheap!!
Click to expand...
I'd say so too! And I always encourage people to look into other natural remedies in addition to MMJ such as Gershon Therapy, Mistletoe Extracts, and good nutrition in general. I've even seen a blood infection and prostate cancer helped by a habanero pepper concentrate. If I added up all the costs of all these options combined it would still be less than the first 2 visits for a chemo infusion or the first 2 weeks worth of prescription meds. I always cringe when I hear that someone is going to get radiation or chemo because I always fear that it will disrupt the healing process. Check out "The Beautiful Truth" and "Cancer the Forbidden Cures" as well.
 
I'm with you for sure on the alternative methods, and would go solely that route if i were in question. Unfortunately it's not that simple when someone else is the one that's sick, and to suggest avoiding chemo is a whole other dimension in the healing process. Time will tell, as will the treatments themselves..
 
I'm with you for sure on the alternative methods, and would go solely that route if i were in question. Unfortunately it's not that simple when someone else is the one that's sick, and to suggest avoiding chemo is a whole other dimension in the healing process. Time will tell, as will the treatments themselves..
Click to expand...

Agree 100%, I never tell anyone to do anything - I provide the resources and let them make their own decisions. For example, someone mentioned that they have cancer on FB and I sent a private message with links to various things for them to check out, and shared a couple stories about experiences I have had first hand knowledge with. After that it's up to them, sometimes it works and others not so much.
 
I also adhere to the ph balance in a persons system. Testing personal ph is not a bad thing. Normal ph should be slightly alkaline and not acidic.
Click to expand...

Another good example, I have first hand knowledge of an individual that purchased a tool to make his own baking soda capsules as one of the measures to combat his prostate cancer. He also followed a proper diet and exercise routine as well though.
 
Here is a thought. Now it makes sense.

I'm all for whatever alternative method of healing and good health anyone wants to use. However 'bashing' someone else's method that has a HUGE fanbase and many testimonials of success using his method is in my opinion, is 'Bush' league.

Just looking at the opening page on the link I posted above is full of incorrect information about how Rick Simpson makes his oil. Oh, guess he switched from Napthta to Alcohol?

How can the potency levels be close when the paste is this; 1/2 ounce of bud and 2 ounces of Vegetable Glycerin or Coconut oil?

You're telling me that the potency on the paste you're referring to is almost just as potent than cannabis concentrated oil using flowers only?

And lets mention treatment for cancer as an example. Early stages of cancer the paste could work or as a preventive maintenance.

What about a cancer patient who has late stage 4 cancer that requires strains with high THC to kill cancer? The paste link you posted shows you only use high CBD strains (great for pain and inflammation that SHRINKS tumors, but will NOT kill aggressive cancer). Guess the 'terpenes' will do that as you keep mentioning are so important.

I could go on with more, but it's not necessary.

:Namaste:


PsyCro said:
Ok, i'm going nutty with all this contradicting information on the web so i'm hoping we can put our heads together and make sense of it. First for reference, a pdf which many of you have already seen:

Homepage

Next, info that I find contradicting and eye opening:

- Rick Simspon over and over has stated the importance of the many cannabinoids in cannabis
.. many of which are killed off using the Naptha method

- Rick Simpson also states the importance of using several strains to make the oil
.. this makes sense if you desire the sum attributes of the strains, but doesn't make sense in that the sum attributes come mostly from terpenes/phenols which are killed of using the Naptha method

- The high THC level (mostly only THC is even extracted) from the Naptha method, from what i have read leaves people feeling about the same as when people take Marinol
.. an alternative method for extracting high levels of THC, and a pharmaceutic with only a high THC level, hm, don't very much like that correlation

- Lots of info on the net that i have seen, including from 'people in the know', calls for coconut oil as an alternative, which is supposedly much better than olive oil because its gets absorbed better in the liver
.. cannabinoids are simply fat soluble as far as i know, and are absorbed in the intestinal tract, and are THEN passed via blood through the liver at which point the type of oil used makes no difference

- Many people are reporting excellent results using Ethanol for extraction and are using it to avoid the more dangerous solvents
.. in the study above olive oil extracts more cannabinoids than even ethanol

So, i'm having a hard time not believing that Olive Oil is THE best method. Possibly use 1 to 1.5L of oil to 500grams of dry material, and then administer teaspoon doses 3 times daily.

Any thoughts peeps ??
Click to expand...
 
Hey Motoco, sorry for the confusion but there really is no need for it. I'm searching high and low, coming across all sorts of information, hence my posting here. Don't see the need for you to take offense. The link i posted to the 'paste' was to see if anyone used that method and had some insight which is, i'm pretty sure, what i wrote.

I'm still trying to find the most useful method to make an extract, maybe i'll even try a couple methods as i'll have enough material in a couple of months. Google holy anointing oil and you'll see that cannabis extracts go all the way back to the bible. Its not a new thing, so i wanna make sure that my grow get used the right way.

As far as contradictions go.. you yourself are using food grade alcohol, which Rick seems to be against as he believes that other solvents make a more potent oil.. please don't take offense to that, it just is what it is.

I wish the best for you, and hopefully all goes well with the MyDx device and you post some great info!!

Cheers


ps. looking back at that 'paste' page, you're quite right, dosage seems really funky. could be a nice topical though?
 
No offense taken. That is why I was suggesting for you to try different methods and find out for yourself. As you yourself stated there is so much misleading information on the net., what do believe? Hence, try as many methods as you can and find out for yourself. That is truly the way to separate nonsense from fact.

I've tried several methods making the concentrate. I settled on food grade alcohol, added an extra rinse to pull more extracts and have to say it is an excellent oil. It doesn't matter who says what. In fact just a recent mix of Sour Diesel & Harlequin is the best extract I ever made. Again, try as many methods as you can and learn for yourself. You can make the concentrate anyway you like. I was trying to clarify the numbers for you on the paste so you knew it was not going to be potent enough for your mother-in-laws cancer, even in the early stages.

Best of luck on you're journey in search for your choice of method for extracts.
 
Hi PsyCro,

No matter what, the closing statement I made was out of line and uncalled for. I apologize for hurting you're feeling's as well as you're character. I'm truly sorry from the bottom of my heart!

Best of luck on you're grow PsyCro, hope it turn's out well for you. :peace:

Motoco
:Namaste:

PsyCro said:
PsyCro first grow!

..still look like someone from the above description?? :blalol:

:Namaste:
Click to expand...
 

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