Opinions Needed on LED Lights!

D

DrSmokebro

New Member
Hi 420,

First off I want to say how great this forum is - some really friendly and helpful peeps here. I am looking forward to becoming a contributing member of the community :)

Soooooooo...

I have been doing a significant amount of lurking here over the past month or so, currently researching for a 1st time grow starting mid-March (I would much rather start now but am working on the other side of the planet!). Here is the rough plan...

SPACE: Stealth closet grow WxDxH = 4x2x7ft
GROW MEDIUM: Soil
LIGHT: LED

The plan is to grow out 2 - 3 plants (i'm not sure on strain yet but will be predominately indica), then use clones of my favourite to start a flat Scrog... With the possibility of putting a shelf halfway up the closet to potentially give me double the grow area. Ultimately a seperate mother/clone area, with two flowering scrog shelves in one closet...

Something like that! At the moment I am not really asking for advice on that side of things (the grow process), but if you want to give any I will graciously suck all the knowledge out of the screen and into my head! BAM! more Knowledge in the head = good.

I will most definitely be needing alot of general advice at some point soon, I am planning on starting a grow journal here so people can benefit from the process as I have from so many of your journals.

But at the moment I think its best to keep the scope of this discussion focused on topic...

....(Drum roll please)

... Lighting. Specifically LED. I have chosen to work with LED's for a few reasons:

1) Reduction of heat issue
2) Saving electrical power
3) Extended product life
4) I like to try new things!

Pretty standard reasons I know...

As I am sure you know, it is an LED minefield out there. So many companies all claiming to be the best, etc... I worked in sales (don't hate me) for a while so am pretty good at wading through the fields of bullshit and coming to my own conclusions, which are as follows... (and are by no means conclusive)


I have narrowed it down to a selection of four companies which are:

1) BUDMASTER
2) Californian Light Works
3) Area 51
4) Apache Tech


I know there are many, many other options around. I have got to this point by looking for companies that actually design (and ideally) build the units in house/country. Obviously in this day and age outsourcing to our Asian friends is in most cases a neccesity. It's impossible to compete in almost every physical product market without doing it...

So as far as I am aware, CLW and Apache are actually the only companies that build 'in-house', but I like the other two companies.. Here are my reasons for all four...


1) Budmaster
Are a UK based firm, I will be living in the UK for this project. I like their website attitude, seems honest, good grow journals, willing to interact in a 3rd party forum. The units seem well made, most importantly I really love the modular design. And as far as I am aware it is unique, which to me suggests they designed it themselves.

2) CLW
Proven track record, which speaks volumes in my opinion. Lots of grow journals out there... They build their own units (wow!). They clearly have a good marketing dept, which does not neccesarily mean they have a good product... but the buyer test programs, and number of grow journals out there does suggest they have a product that stands above most others...

3) Area 51
The most honest company I have found so far. They give the product code of the Diodes they use! Crazy business decision but I really like the upfront/no bullshit approach on their website, which, lets face it - is the modern shopfront of business and does massively impact on peoples buying decisions... IS USING PREDOMINATELY 'WHITE' LED's on their latest model. (more on this is a small moment)

4) Apache Tech
Seem to be well respected, NASA connections apparently (take that with a large pinch of salt...) I think they build in house, the most efficient watt/PAR ratio that exists (to my limited knowledge). VERY expensive on a Watt basis. Also uses PREDOMINATELY 'WHITE' LED's on their most talked about ganja grow model. (AT120WR)

Good warrenties all in all...suprisingly Apache has the worst at 1yr and is the most exensive unit, which definitely means it loses some points.



...Take a deep breath..... (preferably a smoke filled one :))


Now... after all that.. I come to the part of the rant where I need advice from people who know alot more about this than me!!!

WHY THE MOVE TO PREDOMINANTLY 'WHITE' LED's on AREA51 & APACHE? I was under the impression that alot of this 'wide spectrum' white light is wasted on our plant.. Has this been proved false? Why is pretty much every other company using a combo of blue and red? Have they (most of the industry) not caught up with the latest developments in the technology? I am intrigued and would love to hear the communities opinions...


Until I have more info on this whole white LED thing, I can't make a proper informed decision on this. So at the moment it is between BUDMASTER & CLW.

Now, as I am working with a 2ftx4ft area, I have deduced that I need a couple of units, each covering a square2x2 area. I reckon either of these two units will do the job nicely...

CLW 200w Full Sprectrum Solarflare
BUDMASTER 450XG


Because I want to potentially cut the closet in half horizontally in the future, I need a light that can be operated close to the canopy. The general advice of CLW is 18-24in depending on plant growth stage, strain etc (I understand that these are rough guidlines!)...

Whereas the BUDMASTER guidlines are very high... 1.5 (5ft)-2m (6.5ft) for veg and 45-60cm for bloom. I am assuming this is because they have packed in such as massive amount of diodes in each cluster... But even so this is really high industry wide.. The general advice for LEDS seems to be 12-24in ish.. That is what the few PAR reading comparisons I have seen measure at...

Budmaster - Powerful units but perhaps not the best for close canopy growing with restricted height?

***************

Sorry if this seems to be a bit if a rant... its been good to get the whole sheebang out of my head and on to 'paper'... Its allowed me to address the pro's/cons of the lights im looking at and solidify all these LED based thoughts whirling around my head! Wooooooo! its a crazy disco in there...


I really look forward to interacting with you guys on this topic.. just to make it nice and clear for everyone (including me), I guess I am asking two questions...

1) Whats the crack with these new fangled 'white' LEDS?
2) How is the budmaster seemingly so much more powerful at distance than everything else?

I know there are some specific threads dedicated to LED's.. I felt that there was so much I wanted to say that it would be best to start my own..


Thanks alot in advance for anyone who reads/responds this. I look forward to hearing your opinions!


DrSmokebro
 
re: Opinions Needed on LED Lights!

This is quite a read :thumb:
You got my attention first with your "Flat Scrog"
Can you please expound on it if possible as short as you can. Cheers! :)
 
re: Opinions Needed on LED Lights!

Sup Sam, Yep it was a proper rant! My fingers are bleeding! ARRRRGH!!!

By Flat Scrog I mean a standard, mesh screen at a uniform, horizontal height about the plants. As opposed to a vertical wall of mesh/Vscrog/BoxofGreen etc. Does that make more sense now?

:)
 
re: Opinions Needed on LED Lights!

Hey there,
The white LED answer.....

White light contains all visible light.
When we consider the spectral requirements for plants to photosynthesize in a man made environment we are considering those aspects of the visible spectrum.....and the entire visible spectrum is white when produced simultaniously.
HPS is "orange-ish" because it does not contain the entire visible spectrum....it lacks in the blues.
MH is "blue-ish" because it also does not contain the entire visible spectrum....it lacks in the reds.

Because we know that when a canabis plant is vegging it likes the blues more & most people give it a MH lamp....flowering canabis prefers a red dominant spectrum....think about it, when the Earth tilts away from the sun (northern hemisphere) in the fall the sun rays have to travel farther through our atmosphere which ends up being a little bit more red...in addition to shorter day lengths which also means a higher percentage of daylight being more red dominant......

LED allows us to do something that other technologies cannot do so easily or well....LED lights can be designed and manufactured to produce exact frequencies of light. An LED panel can be built to provide a plant with more of the entire specrum...the last few years most LED companies were stuck in the old mindset of blue/red and so that is why all of the LED grow lights on the market were blue and red.
Why limit it to two bands of the spectrum?
The sun is the best grow light there is and it has all of the spectrum....is it not better to copy the best thing there is?!?!
White light...whole spectrum.....THAT is where it is at.

Hope this helps.
 
re: Opinions Needed on LED Lights!

A little correction to what Squeeks was saying, when LED companies were making panels with only red and blue diodes the growth rates were not the greatest. I pointed this out a few times in the past but I'll try to keep it short.

The reasons to use LEDs is to reduce heat, keep humidity and evaporation low, and reduce power consumption. Red and Blue are the two (truly 7 but that's much more involved) wavelengths that are used the most in plant growth. To reduce the aforementioned issues, producers started making red and blue panels, then expanded to a few more reds and blues (but still all red and blue). They soon realized that there were other wavelengths that the plants used to produce. Then you have waves of 5, 7 ,9, 11, and even 15 band LED panels. Part of the power reduction part of LEDs was to target the wavelengths that plants used most. As they added more wavelengths, growth rates increased but so did cost and power consumption. Whites mixed in to the blues and red is a way to hit MOST of those other accessory pigments and still reduce power consumption. As for Area 51, they took their idea from members of another forum that was testing and researching openly and brought their work to market first. The idea behind it is that white LEDs are now more efficient than HPS (or any other type of lighting) and adding additional red will improve flowering. I personally feel they are going about it the wrong way but who am I?

FYI Apache never worked with NASA or had a contract with them or had their lights tested by them. They simply submitted their produce to be reviewed for a product request NASA put out (they were not selected).
 
re: Opinions Needed on LED Lights!

So, Hose, if you were shopping for LED today would you go with these panels that have lots of white or stick with the red/blue paradigm?
 
For me the idea is minimal power consumption with the best growth rates. It's well established that blues and reds give the best veg growth rates. The issues was the lack of flowering production. It doesn't take that much white to fill in the missing wavelengths. If I was going to by a pre-made panel it would either be an advanced led type panel or a panel that I could customize from TopLED or the like.
 
Hosebomber said:
If I was going to buy a pre-made panel it would either be an advanced led type panel...
Click to expand...

Could you please expand on this? What do you mean by advanced led type? I don't think you're referring to the brand.

You're referring to some new way of solving the puzzle?

A-51 has some interesting articles about wavelength, lens vs. unlensed, etc. A-51 thinks lensed is better.

Hop on over to Grow Evolution's site and you can read about why they think unlensed is better.

To the OP: I hope you don't feel I'm hijacking your thread. I'm just trying to lure out some of the experienced growers in hopes of some good info.
 
Have you looked into lush lighting I use the luminator it replaces 600 watt hpd and draws only 190 watts cost the same as advanced. I fell like I have the sun in my closet
2014-01-12_08_45_24.jpg
I dont see those lines in anybody elses led pannels pics
 
Dusty -
I've seen that barring - like you're looking through some blinds - in other pics and videos. I think it has something to do with the way digital devices see the LED output.
 
Telkwa, I was referring o the brand. They put a lot of testing and research into their product and it works. They added just the right amount of white IMHO and didn't stray too far off the efficiency path. As for the secondary lenses or reflectors... both companies are understating the drawbacks and overstating the rewards of their chosen path (it's called marketing). I personally would not us a 120 degree base diode without a reflector or a refraction method. You simply lose too many photons from side spray. However, the second link you gave 80-85% as a base. In actuality, it's really about a 7-12% lose and reflectors are a min of 5%. The bars in the photo are from a sine wave, you get the same thing with HPS.
 
I red your post and was wondering if you looked at TopLED, one of our sponsors? I too took years to research LED's and feel comfortable making the switch. I picked up TopLED's Mars II lights for my flowering tent and their reflector series for my veg tent and couldn't be happier. They also cost about 1/2 the price as the "brand name" led companies products. Just wanted to throw that out there!.
 
I'll be getting two Green Sun led units delivered today to test. I'll journal everything on the test grow. I have no tech info as yet. should arrive with the package, or via email. So I'll post that info in the journal too. Will add said journal to my sig when I start it in next 24 hrs.
 
Thank you HB for sharing your opinion. Lots of data out there to consume!!!!
I have about six months or so before I am planning on dropping the coins on some lights.....still trying to decide what I am going to buy.
 
I have the 180W model from Advanced LED - another sponsor here. I LOVE LOVE LOVE it ! I've been flowering girls with it for 9 months now and not a problem EVER. I'm just now getting into my groove and realizing the kind of yields I've been after. Getting there had nothing to do with the lights - they were just waiting for me to "catch up". :)

I love Advanced LED and when I'm ready for a 2nd light expansion, they'll be my first stop. My model has a mix of blue and red, peppered with white throughout. There's nothing like looking in the tent to a pink budalicious paradise - these ladies below are less than 30 days flowering under my Advanced LED :)

eyecandy1-13.jpg
 
Telkwa said:
Dusty -
I've seen that barring - like you're looking through some blinds - in other pics and videos. I think it has something to do with the way digital devices see the LED output.
Click to expand...

Hps is the only other light that put the lines in a pic have yet to find anther led pannel that does this, or another company that guaranty yeids over hps or your money back.
 
Icemud said:
I ... was wondering if you looked at TopLED, one of our sponsors? I too took years to research LED's and feel comfortable making the switch. I picked up TopLED's Mars II lights for my flowering tent and their reflector series for my veg tent and couldn't be happier. They also cost about 1/2 the price as the "brand name" led companies products.
Click to expand...

Ice, I've read some of your logs, and thank you for your efforts. It's super helpful to see actual results. I've stared at the TopLED pages for hours. TopLED just worries me some. Like the Mars 700W. It's not anywhere near 700W. You have to read the fine print to see that actual draw is between 300 to 380W. That kind of thing really turns me off.

My impression is that you just have to decide to take your chances with a company like that. I'm totally glad you've been happy with them, but I'm scared to roll the dice.
 
I just unboxed two greensun cob style led's. Sponsors here too. I have yet to hang them. But I did a wattage draw test and it was actual 122.7 watts draw. Should be interesting to journal.
 

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