Light debate unplugged

hey hey, I was reading luckiestman13's grow journal and was inspired by it and my brain to respond. it got so long winded that I decicded to start a new thread with my response instead, out of respect for another growers journal. hence the title "unplugged" from his journal basically. lol

here's what I've got so far leaching from my brain having read the debate going on his journal.

love the light debate going on here. it piques a few thoughts in my head. as in the last 2 months, I have run a nanocube 1000w hps, just bought a sunsystems lec 315 light, and a week later or so I won the potm giving me the mars II 1200w led.

now, that being listed.

lumen output, I don't have a meter so I cant say officially, but definitely the hps or mh win by far.

heat in room. this is the part that really interested me here. from what I have found so far with all 3.

one tower fan oscillating in the 4x8 tent.

6" maxfan and filter exhausting.

lightrail lightmover added.

1k hps or mh was the easiest to work with as far as heat output. I do have a vented hood, but once I added the light mover it was disconnected with very little discernible difference in temps. would prefer it on for peace of mind but it didn't hurt me. my 1k was running about 6 inches over the very happy tops.

sunsystems lec 315, runs hotter than advertised definitely. the light output looks great in a 4 foot wide tent. so on the mover, I am confident it would do well as to footprint. but the heat output is very close to that of the 1k hps/mh. love the lower wattage, as I could run 3 of them in place of the one 1k. that was a major factor in buying it as a test. I have lack of power issues here.

mars II 1200 w at about 16" from the tops is hard to keep below 86 degrees. I fear a problem with this light. definitely will need to run my ac for this one. ac is in wall in room 2 feet from the tent. works very well for maintaining temps in the tent. but I have already needed to turn it on this year, whereas in the past, using 1k hps/mh, I did not need it til june. so, the led is using ac plus tower fan plus exhaust fan. where 1k hid did not yet this time last year or the year before.

im not a pro. at all.

what I say just comes from what I have seen or done.

what do I know of led's making it taste better? nothing. but it sure does look pretty lol. does that mean anything? no. I haven't finished anything with it yet, so there is no results from it. won't be either likely. the strain I am growing now is new to me as is the fact that it is an auto fem. so nothing to compare to. I can say it is quite blinding running both growth and bloom on it lol.

I believe from what I have done so far in testing these 2 new lights, that I would have a much easier time dealing with the heat output of my 1k light than either the lec 315 or the 1200w led.

running cost? in my setup, 4x8 tent, 6" maxfan exhaust, tower fan keeping it moving, light mover, ac(very small unit) as needed.

from seeing the light output of the lec 315, I believe would be the cheapest to run. may or may not produce as heavy, but with the lower draw I could add one more still, but less wattage than my 1k hid, and less than a hundred watts more than the led uses.

led, no clue as to how it will produce either, but I have seen others grows and am impressed. but thinking about that, everyone seems very quick to supplement with side lighting or even more top lighting. so with that in mind, is there a dollar saving using led's? I don't see it. are they cooler? absolutely not. at 18" in the first 24 hours, the tops were at 95 degrees, so on went the ac unit. not acceptable. don't know how it will work at the high of summer. this cooked new seedlings of my autos, I lost the first 4 plants of my current grow. (journal coming soon) and with needing the ac so soon, the cost is likely over that of using the 1k hid.


1k hid. easy to use. easy to cool. I run it 6" from the tops in my setup with no issue without the cooltube hooked up. with it I love it even more. cost is much higher than the lec 315. 3x plus the cost. i'm going to say equal to or less than the led considering the ac unit needs of that. not to say I wouldn't be using the ac with hid. I would, but not as soon. so that says led is more needy of it.

so, the light output award goes to 1k hid. the cost award goes to lec 315. I guess the pretty award goes to led.

what it boils down to I guess, is what matters most to each individual grower. not so much their reason for growing, as their beliefs of what works best for them. we all want as large a harvest as we can get from our setups. commercial, hobbyist, med grower, doesn't matter what title you give yourself. we want more!!! its called human nature. some want better and are willing to forfeit quantity for quality. as they see it. but they still want as much as they can get, hence adding all the extra lights to led which supposedly produces superior bud. the extra lights are not for better bud, they are for more bud. sorry, denser does not always equal better. it does always equal more.

the next thought for the calculator laden ocd grower.

everyone talks about grams per watt. that's all fine n good. but it is faulted.

it should be grams per kwh used. aaahhhhhh see, now that also hit my brain reading luckiestmans' journal. the debate there was also leaning towards the gr/w discussion.

all of those calculations are for naught if you push an extra 4 months in veg to attain a monster.

hence the need for a calculation of ACTUAL used kwh's.

with an actual kwh usage added up for all of the equiptment, one could then go to their power bill and get the cost per kwh and come up with an actual cost of the grow.

ie: I could say, hey man I grew 3 pounds of primo stuff under one 400 watt hid it was freakin awesome dude!!!

that's an extreme version of the brag I get it. but you know what I mean. but at that 3.36 g/w is awesome!!
what other wattage was used though?

fans? how many what wattage and how many hours do they each run?
lights? again how many what wattage how many hours?
ac units?
chillers?
timers? yes they do use power.
any pumps, air or water?
do you have a well? theres another pump being used for the grow.
trimmers if used?
auxillary lighting? such as trimming lights, general room lighting that wouldn't be used for anything else?
hot water for cleaning? from res's to measuring devices it all uses power.
extra heaters if needed in the winter?

it all adds up. so the real question if someone wants to compare should be: how many grams per kwh used did I get?

holy crap this has spun out of control. it was half written as a reply, so I am glad I moved it.
mods: delete if you feel it holds no merit for discussion.


it can go a lot farther if one wants to calculate actual cost per gram of your awesome stuff.

but I digress. it was supposed to be about lighting and power, and so far it is.

like it, hate it, I don't care. because I care.

unforgiven
:420::theband:
 
im not 100% sold on the light yet. it sure is pretty lol. I might run it for the first couple months on my new perpetual im doing.

still waiting for a few things, the magical butter "gadget" is one of them. lol
 
I've built a 180W LED array and the heat that comes off of it makes me question the capability of most entry level consumer LED fixtures that claim to compete with HPS 1kW.

IMG_183523.JPG


V:bongrip:
 
I've built a 180W LED array and the heat that comes off of it makes me question the capability of most entry level consumer LED fixtures that claim to compete with HPS 1kW.

IMG_183523.JPG


V:bongrip:

questioning it in a good way or a bad way?

ie: low heat claims are bogus, as I think I have found. or what?
 
LEDs are sensitive to heat so manufacturers only run them at %50 max current as a safety net that enables them to use cheap cooling methods such as light weight aluminum heat sinks and cheap fans. And the consumer pays dearly. RIP $
 
yeah I definitely wasn't ready to pull the trigger on buying leds. I considered diy but finding supply might be an issue.

I notice that it only runs two fans if you have only one switch on. would seem to me that running all 4 would make more sense. both for heat and humidity. which isn't an issue for me. mine seems to top out at 30% humidity atm. but things are still young and small.
 
I'd say if you're into growing bonsai cannabis then the mars 1200 would do a killer job on anything less than 3 feet high.

To get good penetration you need to DIY or buy LED lamps that have optic lenses to focus the light more, thus going deeper and handling taller plants.

Yes, the turn off to DIY LED is the power supply. That's why I roll my own now and never look back.

:bongrip:
 
I have been waiting for someone to make a comparison between HPS/MH, CMH and LED...Thank you very much!

I keep hearing that LED's are supposed to run cool, but have also heard that LED's don't magically get rid of heat issues; the fact that all of the heat is vented right out of the unit into the grow area can't help much. At least with HID, the ballast can be kept outside of the grow area which must help significantly with controlling temperatures.

I've been looking at the SunSystems LEC315; I've heard good things about CMH, but am wary about the heat issue. I have noted that the LEC315 doesn't come with an air cooled hood, but wonder how it does in the heat department if it were to be fitted with one.

I guess I'm still no closer to making a decision, but at least I have more information, now. :)
 
hiya friend,

yep figgered since I have run all 3 in a short time I would post some observations.

however as said, the cmh didn't get a very good test, about a week. not really fair. it will come back. I need that power difference if I want to run a second tent at some point. the led won't give me that. and I think the output of the cmh is good enough to warrant more time in the tent. just now that I have it, I want to see what everyone is horny about the leds for. if the led works well enough, I can likely run that in one tent and the cmh in another. power wise though, I think the cmh would knock em outta the park. and coverage appears to be great in the tent with it. so I may still buy another cmh. at this time, I cant see myself buying a second led though.

too many issues. kinda like buying an edsel. lmao
 
I have always thought grams per watt was a poor way to do things. Of course things should include how much kWh you are using. Or even ave watts/hour for all your equipment. Cooling, water pumps, circulation fans etc. for example this grow I am accomplishing all cooling with a 400cfm exhaust fan. I will surely pull more gm/watt/ hour than when inhale to use an AC during the summer. I am running 1500watts led and 600w hps. If I were running two hps 1000 I don't think I would be able to cool them with just the 400cfm fan but who knows?

Also take note that the Mars uses 5w LEDs which penetrate better but produce more heat.
 
I have always thought grams per watt was a poor way to do things. Of course things should include how much kWh you are using. Or even ave watts/hour for all your equipment. Cooling, water pumps, circulation fans etc. for example this grow I am accomplishing all cooling with a 400cfm exhaust fan. I will surely pull more gm/watt/ hour than when inhale to use an AC during the summer. I am running 1500watts led and 600w hps. If I were running two hps 1000 I don't think I would be able to cool them with just the 400cfm fan but who knows?

Also take note that the Mars uses 5w LEDs which penetrate better but produce more heat.

I think you probably could cool 2 1k hids with cooltubes. hooked in sync filter 2 lights then fan would work a charm with an oscillating to keep it all moving n fresh. I have actually hooked that up fer a guy, I felt it was working but he made changes so i'll never know for sure on his setup.

interesting about what leds they use. not totally up on electronics components so that is good to know. what about them cob leds? do they run cooler but at a loss of penetration?
 
cobs are usually composed of 1 watt diodes and because they are clustered together they penetrate well, especially with an optic component focusing the light into the grow area rather than dispersed 120 degress
 
When you say the 315lec puts out as much heat as your 1000 watt light, i'm sure you mean it adds as much heat as your enclosed, air cooled, 1000 watt light adds to the room.. ... I just finished running 2 315w lights... For my needs they're just perfect... One plant, one light... I can easily live with the yields [and the heat] i get from 2 315w lec lights.. $4$ i'll take the 315 lec over led...
 
When you say the 315lec puts out as much heat as your 1000 watt light, i'm sure you mean it adds as much heat as your enclosed, air cooled, 1000 watt light adds to the room.. ... I just finished running 2 315w lights... For my needs they're just perfect... One plant, one light... I can easily live with the yields [and the heat] i get from 2 315w lec lights.. $4$ i'll take the 315 lec over led...

its comments like this that drove my decision to buy the lec 315 in the first place. great news for you eh. like I said, it needs more run time for proving in my tent, but I am looking forward to it. it seems purely logical.

but it does seem to run hot. more like my uncooled 1k or just under that. sorry but that's what I have found. more testing, lol.
 
and yeah im so far leaning more towards the lec than the led as well.
 
just remember that for the extra price of expensive LEDs you could just use HID 1kw and add air conditioning and seal your room for the additional benefit of optional carbon dioxide enrichment.

what is a lec? is that the new plasma HID. Tesla technology!! :laughtwo: Einstein's paid quackery pales in contrast to real scientists like Tesla
 
search sun systems lec 315. its a cmh ceramic metal halide. 315 watts. so I could run 3 of these for less than the same wattage of a 1k hid.

my concern is power, I don't have any, lol. i'm limited to about 1k for lighting plus all the other goodies needed. old house, gotta stay safe. at least I know my limits.
 
woohoo just got notification the magical butter "gadget" lol has shipped !!! :cheer:
 
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