LED vs. HPS

[Soniq420]

We need to keep the discourse at a higher level my friends.

It's not personal

Keep the debate to the merit of the argument and not about the person making the argument.

Thread will reopen in the AM

[Soniq420]

Good morning all

Thread has been reopened as promised.

Have a great green day

[obxgardener]

Point well taken Soniq.

I am very interested in the science behind growing, and this thread is interesting in that respect.

I'm sure someday we'll be joking about the HPS holdouts... but it's obvious we're not there yet.

So, I'm really looking forward to the continued competition between HPS and LED, but not so much any competition beyond data from grows, and a basic, scientific debate, as I hope we all can agree.

[PitViper]

So you are going watt for watt you need 4 lights to get the same results and same energy consumption whats your advantage?KWH will be the same and you need to spend 4 times as much for equipment.its a lose lose.My grow rooms get tight enough without having to go wall to wall lights makes it hard to work.Ill take my one light that covers an 8x8 area all day show me an LED that does that.If we are comparing lights show me the ones that make the claim 120w of LED is the same as a 600 HID.If you can prove that one light works in veg and bloom.I am not seeing an up side to this. watt for watt is not the LED claim to fame its lower watts grow the same plants with the same yield.Putting an LED up against a HID is like bringing a hybrid to a drag race ye you will get to the end of the track just not at peak performance.

[Screwnuts33]

Originally Posted by PitViper

So you are going watt for watt you need 4 lights to get the same results and same energy consumption whats your advantage?KWH will be the same and you need to spend 4 times as much for equipment.its a lose lose.My grow rooms get tight enough without having to go wall to wall lights makes it hard to work.Ill take my one light that covers an 8x8 area all day show me an LED that does that.If we are comparing lights show me the ones that make the claim 120w of LED is the same as a 600 HID.If you can prove that one light works in veg and bloom.I am not seeing an up side to this. watt for watt is not the LED claim to fame its lower watts grow the same plants with the same yield.Putting an LED up against a HID is like bringing a hybrid to a drag race ye you will get to the end of the track just not at peak performance.

Pit,
Well said. I have been kicking this around in my head trying to make sense of it. At this point the only advantage I see is possibly heat. The LED's should run cooler. I really hope this technology evolves into a viable option where a 120 watt LED will have the same yield as a 600 watt HPS. Even though I just bought all new gear I would replace my lights in a heartbeat. I am watching the grow comparisons and hoping the results come out in favor of the LEDs. Until then I will remain a skeptic.

[PitViper]

Sfhaze...Me an him have been going round with this for a year now his set up is for him,thats what he likes. he has heat problems and wants to keep his electric on the DL.some app LED will work in a small closet type app ,but you need to many in a big garden.If you want big plants and a big bloom they wont do it.I need to many in my garden to even think about going LED, hence there claim.why are you testing WATT TO WATT thats not there claim. less equals more is there claim to fame.There is no adavantage to it ,the test is skewed. put a 316w LED against a 1000w hid just like all the adds say.bet you ill grow 4 times the plants with the HID,and faster.Dont want to be the bringer of bad news but the reason its never going to happen is the LED will fall on its face.Thats why all the test are going to be Watt for Watt.So if this is a watt for watt test the only advantage to an LED is abit less heat?But you need 6 lights to take the place of 1 for a tent grow.Ill keep my head room i work in that room alot, hate to keep smacking my head on lights.and how are you going to raise and lower them in a big garden.Ill need 16 lights to cover my garden thats what i was told. guess ill need a lift to raise and lower lights.16 lights is almost 1 light per plant to do the same job as my 2 1000 on rails.I love the idea wish it would work but atm cant get my head around it.The amount of lights needed, the increase in work even the parts issue also an air flow Co2 issue.To us its a bad move.
When you have to put that many lamps up it becomes counterproductive ...like more than 4 lamps. With so many lamps it becomes stupid money.........

[Soniq420]

I'll toss my two cents in for the sake of discussion

I've heard both value propositions
1) less LED wattage for same result (i.e. 126w vs 400w HPS)
2) Same light wattage LED vs HPS for higher total yield under LED.

In either scenario it's either true or it isn't. Personally, I'm waiting for the grows coming up.

In scenario 1 the higher upfront cost is offset by the lower electrical cost, and lower cost to keep cool, and less frequent replacement bulb costs. Though the HPS has a wider canopy if the fewer plants under LED produce the same total weight as the HPS then we shouldn't really care. (again I'm not saying it's true, we need grow journals from all the people buying these lights to start materializing)

In scenario 2 the much higher up front costs are offset by less cooling costs, less frequent bulb replacement and much higher gram/watt result.

Like any capital investment, the investor has to determine the acceptable time horizon for payback. I'm thinking about plugging a bunch of the journal results into some net present value, ROI, and break even analysis spreadsheets to see the objective punchline.

Who's knows, I'm just keeping an open mind and waiting for the data

[PitViper]

Thats whats going on a 126 v 400 ok lets see that not 5 126 v a 400 there is no power saved there.ill bet the heat is the same also.

[obxgardener]

Originally Posted by Soniq420

Like any capital investment, the investor has to determine the acceptable time horizon for payback.

Also, a good investor would look at how quickly the technology is improving... it would not make sense to make a large capital investment if you could achieve more just by waiting.

Which is I feel where most of us are with LED tech - there is no doubt it has improved, and there is no doubt it will continue to improve.

Why buy now, when an even better product will be along in a year or two? HPS is a proven technology with proven results, with the most important being the economic - in other words, it makes sense for most growers.

It's far from clear that now is the time to invest.

I'd love to be proven wrong though!

[Soniq420]

^^

Respect for your position OBX, proven is safe no doubt and if not today, then some day, because this technology is clearly getting better each year.

Respect for yours too Pit, and I agree 5 x 126 vs 600 saves no electricity. So the argument in my view becomes upfront fixed cost investment vs bulb replacement and higher yield per watt. It's either pays back or it doesn't.

What if 1.5 or 2g/watt is possible? Doesn't this change the financial argument? At what stage is the higher fixed cost worth it. Of course if LED returns on 0.7 or 1.0 from a master grower than I doubt the payback is there yet.

All I'm saying is if it's true there's a legit value proposition in the equal watt approach to LED. This is why I feel the best path forward is to wait and see what McBudz does with his 5 x 126 regarding gr/watt.

Then we can calculate the data and see

[scumbragger]

Originally Posted by Soniq420

^^

Respect for your position OBX, proven is safe no doubt and if not today, then some day, because this technology is clearly getting better each year.

Respect for yours too Pit, and I agree 5 x 126 vs 600 saves no electricity. So the argument in my view becomes upfront fixed cost investment vs bulb replacement and higher yield per watt. It's either pays back or it doesn't.

What if 1.5 or 2g/watt is possible? Doesn't this change the financial argument? At what stage is the higher fixed cost worth it. Of course if LED returns on 0.7 or 1.0 from a master grower than I doubt the payback is there yet.

All I'm saying is if it's true there's a legit value proposition in the equal watt approach to LED. This is why I feel the best path forward is to wait and see what McBudz does with his 5 x 126 regarding gr/watt.

Then we can calculate the data and see

GO SONIQ GO!...LOL

Pit is a tough nut to crack...LOL..PIT honestly...I know how you feel....I felt the same way....but then I bought 3 126w panels (not having seen them before I thought they would cover a 4x4 area) I now feel that if you want to keep them as close to the canopy as possible you could use another panel while adding 3 or so more plants in the 4x4 area.That`s still 504w`s compared to 1000w. Now I've seen many LED grown plants in the last couple of years and what seems to be alot of happy (cause they don't know any better ??) LED growers out there....also we all have to justify spending in my case $1500 which in some cases seem to be no more then disco lights with knobs...LOL....Having said that these are 3 weeks old and only another 3 weeks will tell but so far I`haven`t seen any other LED`s do even this yet...what do you think!I already know what the 1000w of HID will do and so far these LED`s aren`t much different...stay tuned...LOL






Testing New LED Lights vs 1000w HPS

[Andy Botwin]

Lookin' sweet! Thanks for the pics.

How many plants in that 4x4?

[Soniq420]

I'm not trying to convince anyone whether LED is better or worse than HPS, I'm a dispassionate observer in this debate.

I am trying to say we should wait for the data before drawing conclusions

We're all entitled to our opinions, mine is I don't have one yet

Originally Posted by scumbragger

GO SONIQ GO!...LOL

[PitViper]

Originally Posted by scumbragger

GO SONIQ GO!...LOL

Pit is a tough nut to crack...LOL..PIT honestly...I know how you feel....I felt the same way....but then I bought 3 126w panels (not having seen them before I thought they would cover a 4x4 area) I now feel that if you want to keep them as close to the canopy as possible you could use another panel while adding 3 or so more plants in the 4x4 area.That`s still 504w`s compared to 1000w. Now I've seen many LED grown plants in the last couple of years and what seems to be alot of happy (cause they don't know any better ??) LED growers out there....also we all have to justify spending in my case $1500 which in some cases seem to be no more then disco lights with knobs...LOL....Having said that these are 3 weeks old and only another 3 weeks will tell but so far I`haven`t seen any other LED`s do even this yet...what do you think!I already know what the 1000w of HID will do and so far these LED`s aren`t much different...stay tuned...LOL






Testing New LED Lights vs 1000w HPS

The plants are beautiful bro...but Ill ask this...does it make sense for me to hang 16 126 LEDS vs my 2 1K's? Ummm I think not, but I agree my situation is different to some others.
Im not down on LED per say...I tried to buy them a year ago and felt it wasnt in my interst to do so.
I want LED to work....truly

[DroJo]

Originally Posted by scumbragger

GO SONIQ GO!...LOL

Pit is a tough nut to crack...LOL..PIT honestly...I know how you feel....I felt the same way....but then I bought 3 126w panels (not having seen them before I thought they would cover a 4x4 area) I now feel that if you want to keep them as close to the canopy as possible you could use another panel while adding 3 or so more plants in the 4x4 area.That`s still 504w`s compared to 1000w. Now I've seen many LED grown plants in the last couple of years and what seems to be alot of happy (cause they don't know any better ??) LED growers out there....also we all have to justify spending in my case $1500 which in some cases seem to be no more then disco lights with knobs...LOL....Having said that these are 3 weeks old and only another 3 weeks will tell but so far I`haven`t seen any other LED`s do even this yet...what do you think!I already know what the 1000w of HID will do and so far these LED`s aren`t much different...stay tuned...LOL






Testing New LED Lights vs 1000w HPS

I'll chime in here, and i'll be resepectful this time around lol. I think those plants do look pretty. Honestly. I've always maintained that these lights look promising over other LED's in the industry
And in a post she did get over 900gr in 630w of led lighting which is over 1gr/watt, but my argument as i made before is paying $2250 in lighting alone just to attain a 1gr/watt or even 2gr/watt isnt worth it when you consider what you're paying per watt ...in my opinion
Think about it 4x4 area if u have 3 units and a couple short plants, its quite easy to attain the 1gr/w or better, but if you guys would like to PM me and ill show you a completed grow journal where 450gr was pulled from a singular 400w scrogg. 3x 126 = 378w. Do i believe that you can pull 378gr from your current grow? hellllll yea. But you've paid $1350 to pull less than 1 pound. even @ 2 gr/w. You'll have 756gr or 1.6 lbs which you still payed 1350 for. See what i mean? But im still interested in the finished outcome of your grow scrummy
And please know that 3 126 units($1350) still have a big advantage over a 1kwatter. As we all know hps emitt a lot of unusable light. For a just and fair comparison, 3 126s covering a 4*4 area against a 2 600 watters covering a 4*4 area would be much more fair. Or we can literally take the manufacturers claim and compare 3x 400watters covering the same size canopy to 3x 126 units.

I'd love to see the gr/watt difference.

Not to mention the HGL units are almost 20 lbs each, if you have bought 6 units thats 120 pounds to add to over your plants before fans or carbon filters.. my hps hood is only 11 lbs, and thats pretty heavy for an hps hood as now i see some that weight 8 lbs.



Hey Soniq, will McBudz be doing a HGL only grow or will he have another simultaneous grow to compare to?

I honestly like the concept behind LEDs and having a lighting system that doesnt throw away 90% of light emitted, and i swear to you i think the purple hue is sexy and would prefer it over orange anyday, but to me 1 of 2 things has to budge with LEDs

Coverage area or Price. In my humble opinion, the numbers wont compute until one or both of those get better in growers favor.