Need help with Ebb and Grow bucket system

[growninnorcal]

I just switched to using hydro and decided to get this system. My main concern is overwatering these plants since I'm used to soil and watering ever 3 days. Are you suppose to have it switch on 3-4 times a day? I'm using the "sure to grow" media too. Please help let me know if you have experience with the syste, and what do you do. Thanks

 

[Aussiebonger]

If sure to grow media has good drainage then yeah 3-4 times a day is cool, im no pro but thats what im doin with rockwool and mine seem happy.... Im interested what a pro has to say on the subject though..

 

[growninnorcal]

Anyone else with experience with this? Or can anyone chime in to wether or not watering it 3-4 times is good or bad? Again I'm running "sure to grow" media in my buckets. Thanks

 

[Munki]

First off, it is a good idea to see how much moisture your media holds. Take a known quantity of water in a measuring bowl and soak a measured amount of media that is contained in a drainage type pot. Soak that media and pot in the water. Once saturated, pull it out and let it drain fully. Note the difference in the water level in the measuring bowl. Now you know how much water the media holds. How fast your plants use that moisture and how much just evaporates will depend on plant size and relative humidity of your room so it is hard to give a solid number. Some people just feel how much a potted plant weighs dry, soak the pot, then feel how much it weighs again. Leave the plant in the grow room and periodically check to see how long it takes to get to the original weight. Obviously, you won't want it to get bone dry but close to dry is good. When the media is dry there is air that roots seem to like. Aerating the solution is also a good idea if possible.

I use hydroton myself and I'm presently doing 3 floods during my 12 hour day, (about 1 hour after light turns on, midday, and about 1 hour before lights out.

 

[growninnorcal]

Munki: Thanks for the advice. I think I'll copy your flooding schedule. Did you have more floods when it was in the vege stage, since it was more hours? I'm thinking it was 4 times? Let me know. Thanks again.

 

[Mr Smith]

I agree with munki. I personally don't water at lights off but I also don't see it as a problem. Its a very easy system to use but uses alot of medium. I use hydrotron. Water 3 to 4 times a day for 15 minutes for 12 sites and 30 minutes for 24 sites. I have over 3 years and 10 harvest for experience with this machine and primarily use the gro sytem for mothers now.Thought quote might also help. A short list of tricks or methods I used with this sytem.

I wish to pass along some of the tips and tricks I have learned using the ebb n gro system. Please remember that I am only trying to help and possibly learn with ya at the same time.

.

Now the tips and tricks in no specific order (very stoned at the moment)

Vaseline (petroliem jelly) helps with assembly and disassembly. It has no reaction to nutes and water and can help seal the hoses and grommets. Just don't glob it on, swipe parts sparingly using fingers and have a papertowel ready for when your finished lol.

Using a hair dryer will soften the hoses and makes removing them very easy.

Using a pocket flatblade screwdriver you can ream around the fittings and it also makes removing the hoses easier.

If you need more black hoses they sell them in 10 foot lenghs at home depot in the plumming section.
If you need more fittings they sell the at lowes in the plumming section and they are cheap. (always nice to have a few extra Ts and elbows and straights)

If your floor is not even you can elevate individual buckets with cheap floor tiles. They are 1/8 inch thick and you level them with water before medium and plants are in buckets. You want no standing water in the bottom of the top bucket. (helps prevent root rot)

You want no airstones or areation in the resevoir. Its not needed and it helps with ph flutuations.

Ebb systems are very simular to soil grows so plants seem to do better at higher ph levels like 5.7 to 6.3.

Be very careful when seperating fittings from the buckets. I have not found a easy way to do it yet but the buckets can crack if you man handle it. Fittings are very cheap($0.43 each) but buckets are not.

They sell garden hose fittings both male and female ends at lowes the right size for the black tubing and it makes assembly and dissasembly very quick plus its a great tool to flush out the hoses with a garden hose and water from the tap running on high. Stay away from the ones that have built in shut off valves because they still leak when closed and its easy to forget that you left them closed.

If I can think of more I will bring it up later, if you need me to clarify just let me know and I will try to be more descriptive or post a pic. I hope maybe some of this might be helpful. Keep it green( or purple).

 

[growninnorcal]

Thanks Mr. Smith for all that information.

 

[Munki]

Yes, thanks for that input Mr. Smith. I do have to ask, what resultant traits did you notice that led you to the conclusion regarding the higher pH? I would have figured that the method did not matter so much as the medium used. A totally inert medium should not change the pH like reactive mixture (soil). You do have the experience, but I would like to know how you came to that finding. Intuition?

I decided to put an air stone in my rez but not sure if it was really needed. It runs for 30 minutes just before each flood. I figured that I would get the maximum oxygenation and minimize the acidification factor in bubbling CO2. You are probably well aware of this but for those that don't, CO2 bubbled through water will react to form a weak solution of carbonic acid lowering the pH by a bit.

 

[Munki]

Munki: Thanks for the advice. I think I'll copy your flooding schedule. Did you have more floods when it was in the vege stage, since it was more hours? I'm thinking it was 4 times? Let me know. Thanks again.

The general goal is when flooding to only do so to get the flood table to its high water mark. If it takes 15 minutes, then run the pump for 15. If it is 30, then do 30. They plants do not need to stay flooded for any length of time. Reflooding should occur when the media dries out and that depends on the media's makeup and environmental conditions. Base rule is to flood about every 4 hours.

If you have the same system as Mr. Smith, he can give you all kinds of tips. I'm relatively new, so my thoughts are more from what I've read and theorized where his comments come from years of experience. Both voices have their place so don't ignore one for the other. I hope to learn more from Mr. Smith in the future.

 

[Mr Smith]

Yes, thanks for that input Mr. Smith. I do have to ask, what resultant traits did you notice that led you to the conclusion regarding the higher pH? I would have figured that the method did not matter so much as the medium used. A totally inert medium should not change the pH like reactive mixture (soil). You do have the experience, but I would like to know how you came to that finding. Intuition?

I decided to put an air stone in my rez but not sure if it was really needed. It runs for 30 minutes just before each flood. I figured that I would get the maximum oxygenation and minimize the acidification factor in bubbling CO2. You are probably well aware of this but for those that don't, CO2 bubbled through water will react to form a weak solution of carbonic acid lowering the pH by a bit.

Tricky question. Kinda hard to explain. Maybe its more of a opinian but I will try. Normally ph gives you a slight rise in a new grow op, trying to get a lower ph value using large amounts of medium can be difficult (hydrotron is not inert) but maintaining a ph close to 6.0 is easier to do. In a ebb system, contact of water to medium is only 3 to 5 times a day which also helps in ph control. Now if ph dips low by itself, its a good indication your developing a root issue like root rot. Root rot normally will have a ph spike up then just starts to drop and will go under 5.5 or lower. This probally doesn't quite answer the question but I have been using ebb systems from megagardens to dyi trays and buckets for 6 years and found running them at 6.0 to be easier and with less ph flutuations.

There is no need to run air into your resevoir. The dissolved oxygen or DO only excelerates broken down organic matter trapped in resevoir. Maximum amount of DO in water is like 1% or somethin like that. Oxygenation in a ebb system comes from when the sytem drains and it more than enough. Your recirculation pump is a nice touch though. CO2 injection in the resevoir does lower ph but I found little to no difference in growth except signs of what look like magnesium deficiency. Cees Hendricks who is the primary breeder for No Mercy also states that a mag problems can occur when injectiong co2 into his nute mix and adds extra magnesium to his co2 pellets he sells. I experiment with co2 injection to the resevoir for 2 grow ops and thought of it as a waste of time so dicontinued that practice.(was injecting pure co2 from the bottle) Now I just try to keep things simple and I experiment less and less.

 

[Munki]

Tricky question. Kinda hard to explain. Maybe its more of a opinian but I will try. Normally ph gives you a slight rise in a new grow op, trying to get a lower ph value using large amounts of medium can be difficult (hydrotron is not inert) but maintaining a ph close to 6.0 is easier to do. In a ebb system, contact of water to medium is only 3 to 5 times a day which also helps in ph control. Now if ph dips low by itself, its a good indication your developing a root issue like root rot. Root rot normally will have a ph spike up then just starts to drop and will go under 5.5 or lower. This probally doesn't quite answer the question but I have been using ebb systems from megagardens to dyi trays and buckets for 6 years and found running them at 6.0 to be easier and with less ph flutuations.

There is no need to run air into your resevoir. The dissolved oxygen or DO only excelerates broken down organic matter trapped in resevoir. Maximum amount of DO in water is like 1% or somethin like that. Oxygenation in a ebb system comes from when the sytem drains and it more than enough. Your recirculation pump is a nice touch though. CO2 injection in the resevoir does lower ph but I found little to no difference in growth except signs of what look like magnesium deficiency. Cees Hendricks who is the primary breeder for No Mercy also states that a mag problems can occur when injectiong co2 into his nute mix and adds extra magnesium to his co2 pellets he sells. I experiment with co2 injection to the resevoir for 2 grow ops and thought of it as a waste of time so dicontinued that practice.(was injecting pure co2 from the bottle) Now I just try to keep things simple and I experiment less and less.

OK, good knowledge here. I have noted that my reservoir seems to settle to around 6.0. I don't chase the pH around with up and down; usually just do one adjustment at nutrient change and that is with a little pH up as the initial mix is usually around 4.8 to 4.9 with my RO water. I do have a question though. If I did premix up a nutrient batch ahead of time and let it sit covered and dark, would that initial low pH reading stabilize itself higher or is that solely an effect of being run through the media and root system?

 

[Mr Smith]

I can't answer that since I rarely ever use RO water. I run large resevoirs and ROs are just too slow for me. I have a old RO that I used a couple of times but its been years since I used it and it was originaly bought for my reef tank. RO water ph is unstable and the low ph is caused by the co2 in the air. RO water I thought stabalizes ph once you add the nute mix or run it through the system but I have little to no experience with ROs. Maybe you can tell me in the near future?

 

[Munki]

I can't answer that since I rarely ever use RO water. I run large resevoirs and ROs are just too slow for me. I have a old RO that I used a couple of times but its been years since I used it and it was originaly bought for my reef tank. RO water ph is unstable and the low ph is caused by the co2 in the air. RO water I thought stabalizes ph once you add the nute mix or run it through the system but I have little to no experience with ROs. Maybe you can tell me in the near future?

It is true the water is "dead" and looking for material to dissolve into itself so it can reach homeostasis. Some naturally occurring CO2 will form a level of Carbonic Acid into the water which should lower the pH a bit as you observed.

I used RO as my tap was over 400 and pH over 8. Stepping up to a larger grow would require me to work with tap; I just need nutrients that are lower in Calcium.

 

[Mr Smith]

My ph tap is 7.0ph at 220 to 250 ppm. I have hard water but it is marginal.

 

[Mr.BDS]

I'm also getting ready to run the ebb & gro system this week with a total of 18 pots with hydroton. Its my first indoor & hydro so its extremely new to me. My biggest worry is the nut's. I do not know what to use but thinking of either GE or BC.
Mr Smith if possible could you give a little info on what worked for you and how much ect? Also do I have to rinse the system every week and add the nut's all over again? Thanks for any info

 

[DroJo]

holy cow u guys are some hydro botany masters..

I'm lookin for a step by step guide to making a 8-12 bucket dwc or e&f system..
do u guys know where I can find one?

and one last question to Mr. Smith.. I'm definitly far from a hydro grower, as I'm approaching my first grow, but I was under the impression that you absolutely do not do hydro w/o an r/o filter?

 

[Mr.BDS]

Munki, First off I've been reading for at least 5 hours last night and another 3 hours today on that lucas formula. WOW! I've learned so much. Thank you again. I got the three part GH nutes today. I still don't know how to get the 0-8-16 yet. Did I miss a part where he says how much of each to put together? Maybe I need to sleep on it and try again tomorrow after work. I'm having some issues right now with the room I just put together so it gives me time to read his knowledge more deeply.Thanks again.

 

[Munki]

Munki, First off I've been reading for at least 5 hours last night and another 3 hours today on that lucas formula. WOW! I've learned so much. Thank you again. I got the three part GH nutes today. I still don't know how to get the 0-8-16 yet. Did I miss a part where he says how much of each to put together? Maybe I need to sleep on it and try again tomorrow after work. I'm having some issues right now with the room I just put together so it gives me time to read his knowledge more deeply.Thanks again.

You just did answer your own question but didn't realize it. 0-8-16 is the formula. The numbers are in milliliters per gallon (mL/gal). I know, mixed measurement types but it is easy to do. If you have a teaspoon measurement spoon, it is 5mL. Anyways, the numbers are Grow-Micro-Bloom so you can see he does not have grow in the formulation. Just Micro and Bloom and this is used throughout the entire grow. He made it even simpler when he switched to General Hydroponics FloraNova Bloom. He just uses that one nutrient for the whole grow. The GH Flora products are very inexpensive and I do not mind mixing up two ingredients.

Now do know that my current grow I used all three parts along with Floralicious plus, their vegan compost tea, and now some liquid Kool Bloom. I bought them all together as a pack so I do not know how much of an improvement these additions made but they increase the nutrient cost signifigantly. I would suggest trying to use the bare minimum nutes to start, then add others once you have you know your growth characteristics first so you can gauge any benefits to the new expenses.

 

[Mr.BDS]

Munki, looking back I now realize that I had the answer but I was thinking I was wrong and it was NPK with which I was totally wrong.Thanks! I hooked up my tri meter and ran a few test tonight.First with my tap water.It was 8.2pH, 0180ppm. Seems way to high. I tested the 0-8-16 and it came out at 6.6pH, 0730ppm. And then tested 10ml-10ml-10ml (which is GH Transition) and it came out to 6.6pH, 0950ppm. I guess I have to work on it a lot more in order to get the ppm up.I have other test going at the moment with a first Edd&Gro test run. and heat is major issue with my sealed room Thanks again Munki I really appreciate your help

 

[Munki]

Munki, looking back I now realize that I had the answer but I was thinking I was wrong and it was NPK with which I was totally wrong.Thanks! I hooked up my tri meter and ran a few test tonight.First with my tap water.It was 8.2pH, 0180ppm. Seems way to high. I tested the 0-8-16 and it came out at 6.6pH, 0730ppm. And then tested 10ml-10ml-10ml (which is GH Transition) and it came out to 6.6pH, 0950ppm. I guess I have to work on it a lot more in order to get the ppm up.I have other test going at the moment with a first Edd&Gro test run. and heat is major issue with my sealed room Thanks again Munki I really appreciate your help

Hey glad to help. Don't think the GH guidelines are gospel for your particular plant species. It is a starting point for many kinds of plants. Lucas discovered that using just bloom and micro at 16mL/Gal and 8mL/Gal respectively closely matched the solution levels needed for good growth with Cannabis. Here is a link to some good stuff. The whole site is worth a read before you get going. You can easily get through it over the weekend but bookmark it for reference.

CannaStats Home Page
This is the main page.

These articles below will be of specific interest to you.

CannaStats - Nutrient Profiles for Cannabis
CannaStats - Nutrient Solution Management and Longevity
CannaStats - Control Track
CannaStats - pH and Nutrient Availability

Go ahead and chew on that for a while.