Te butchers slaughter (breeding journal)

[cobraohm]

oh and excuse my ignorance, but what is p1, f1, f2? I've seen f1 hybrid floating around alot, but not quite sure what it means.

thanks.

[The Butcher]

Originally Posted by dgh420

++ Reps for the information!!

Originally Posted by WheeloFortune

Holy Sh!t dude, that was a long post. so your building boxes to put two plants in each? one male one female? with different lights in each etc?

very informative though, must have took you a while to type. lol. took me a while to read. your method sounds sound to produce some very strong strains. say that 5 times fast. haha you can't. but seriously, there is good knowledge there.

what if you want to skip the males altogether and breed females only, I want to do that for many reasons, including the fact that its harder for me to choose good males because i don't have your experience. you can still cross breed this way and it seems to be to be a very very powerful inbreeding tool, because you can recross a single plant with itself to stabilize it quickly. i have some f1 seeds that i crossed this way, i can't wait to plant them and see what happens.

I am excited to see you put your plan into action.

Thanx wheel!!!yeah seperate boxes 1 male 1 female. Yeah different lights for each, but the lightining in this case does not have to be as intense, due to just wanting seeds not weight. I love to cross strains so the males are good for me. Otherwise I would do EXACTLY the same as you. Yeah its going to take time, but I do this as a hobby (very expensive), but well worth it.

Originally Posted by Tead

Wow! Ok... I feel a bit guilty about getting you to create such a chunk of technical words.
I think I'll go get a cup of coffee and do some reading!

Thanks!

Don't feel that way. Feel like you just helped answer alot of questions in advance for not only myself, but the countless people reading this. So i say

Originally Posted by Kwsmoke

Great job, very informative! I'll definitely try to learn as much as I can, thanks for taking the time to explain this in detail. Selective breeding has always confused me until now!

ANYTIME, ANYTIME

Originally Posted by vxscott18

damn im looking forward to seeing this, i was wanting to try out purple widow myself and la woman looks really good as well.

Just watch your height, this is one of the reasons they (the seed companies) suggest outdoor.

Originally Posted by shaggy_420

sounds good
purple widow looks like an awsome strain
i would figure it would be an indica and not sativa

if you research the strains that make them. Then you will see they are both a majority sativa. Thats one of the reasons my buddy dicided to do an "up-grade purple widow."I'm waiting on more of those seeds as we speak.

Originally Posted by cobraohm

wow very nice on breeding information, i hope to put together something eventually myself. Nice info.

All good things happen to those who wait.

so now its time to ..

[munki]

Nice info Butcher. I'll let you do all the legwork for now!

[The Butcher]

thats what i'm here for. Well we just to plant em. The ladies do all the leg work, And we reep all the benifits.

[The Butcher]

heres some pics of the planted seedlings:

First yes!!!! the la women was successful(and check it out, it sprouted 2 heads wierd You can see it at the bottom of the stem):



next are the three p.w i have in soil:





on this one the shell of the seed was stuck and would not allow the true leaves out, soo I did a risky move and removed it CAREFULLY, not the first time but always scary as hell!!

[Flurple]

just got here... wow great stuff butcher, you thoroughly exercized my brain today. didnt know breeding in plants was so complicated

[PHATBLUNT420]

nice looks like its about that time,
subscribed for the ride and knowledge
good luck bro!

[WheeloFortune]

thats what healthy babies should look like. here we go. . . .

[WheeloFortune]

hey butc, cobra ohm asked about the naming of the seeds, you might have missed it,

let me pretend i won MOM already (which i haven't so everyone please vote for me ) and answer it cool? lol.

Well defining the terms P1, F1, F2, homozygous, and heterogygous can be a simple task, however, applying them to applied genetics can often create confusion. Seed banks can pretty much call them whatever they want because there is no definite set standard. there are some good texts, and good general rules established, i think its just a matter of time.

Heterzygous - a condition when two genes for a trait are not the same on each member of a pair of homologous chromosomes; individuals heterozygous for a trait are indicated by an "Aa" or "aA" notation and are not true breeding for that trait.

Homozygous - the condition existing when the genes for a trait are the same on both chromosomes of a homologous pair; individuals homozygous for a trait are indicated by "AA" or "aa" and are true breeding for that trait.

- Now the heterozygous and homozygous terms can be applied to one trait or a group of traits within an individual or a group of individuals. Depending on your point of reference, an individual or group can be considered both homozygous or heterozygous.

For instance, say you have two individuals that are both short (S) and have webbed leaves (W) and have the following genotypes.

#1 = SSWW
#2 = SSWw

They are both homozygous for the short trait but only individual #1 is homozygous for the webbed leaf trait. Individual #2 is heterozygous for the webbed leaf trait and would be considered a heterozygous individual. As a goup, they would be considered heterozygous in general by some and homozygous by others. It would depend on your point of reference and the overall importance you place on the webbed leaf trait. Most would consider it to be heterozygous.

For example, the blueberry cannabis strain is considered a true breeding homozygous seed line because as a whole the many offspring have a similar look and produce a similar product. However there are often subtle differences between the plants of characters such as stem color and potency. When taking a close look at blueberry, you will find heterozygous traits, but because of the whole overall look, we still generally consider them homozygous for the purpose of breeding programs.

Hybrid - An individual produced by crossing two parents of different genotypes. Clarke says that a hybrid is a heterozygous individual resulting from crossing two separate strains. a hybrid is in general, a cross between any two unrelated seed lines.

F1 hybrid - is the first generation of a cross between any two unrelated seed lines in the creation of a hybrid. F1 hybrids can be uniform or variable depending on the P1 parent stock used.

F2 hybrid - is the offspring of a cross between two F1 plants (Clarke). What Clarke and other sources don't make clear is; do the two F1's need to be from the same parents? By convention they don't. As well, german geneticists often describe a backcross of an F1 back to a P1 parent as a F2 cross.

- OK lets say we take blueberry and cross it with romulan (both relatively true breeding of their unique traits) to create the F1 hybrid romberry. Now lets cross the F1 romberry with a NL/Haze F1 hybrid. Some could say this is a F1 cross of romberry and NL/Haze (RNH). Others could argue that it is a F2 cross of two F1 hybrids. Gets confusing doesn't it? Now lets cross this RNH with a Skunk#1/NL#5 F1 hybrid to create RNHSN. Now some would argue that RNHSN is an F1 hybrid between RNH and SK/NL seedlines. Others would call it an F2.

- So what does this mean to the consumer? It means that a seed bank can call a cross whatever it wants until the industry adopts some standards. Clarke eludes to standardising these definitions but never really gets around to it. Fortunately other plant breeding communities have (Colangelli, Grossnickle&Russell, Watts, &Wright) and adopting their standards makes the most sense.

Watts -

defines an F1 as the heterozygous offspring between two homozygous but unrelated seedlines. This makes sense and gives the F1 generation a unique combination of traits; uniform phenotype but not true breeding. This is important in the plant breeding world. This means that F1 seeds should produce uniform results. It also means that the breeder's work is protected from being duplicated by any other means than using the original P1 (true breeding parents).
[There are exceptions to this by using techniques such as repeated backcrosses (cubing the clone)]

F2 crosses are the offspring of crossing two F1 hybrids. This means that they will not be uniform nor will they breed true. However, F3, F4, F5, etc will also share these characteristics, so to simplify terminology for the seedbanks and seedbank merchants, they can all be classified as F2 seeds in general.

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It's easy to be confused by terms that have more than one interpretation, depending on the context. F2 seeds are generally considered by the seed-buying public to be an inferior product. This may be a true statement – for example, in the case of a seed bank selling Jack Herer seeds WITHOUT STATING that they were created by crossing two Jack Herer plants from Sensi Seed Bank’s F1 stock. These seeds are an F2 generation of Jack Herer in the classic definition of the term. The F2 generation is NOT going to produce the same results as the F1 in terms of the similarity of the plants in the group…they will vary in their characteristics rather than all of them being essentially identical. Such a scam rips off the buyer expecting a uniform crop of Jack Herer.

Now here’s the “kicker” – because of the negative connotation of the example of an F2 above, some have the mistaken impression that any member of the F2 generation is undesirable as a plant. This is NOT necessarily true. Quite the contrary; the F2 generation is a treasure trove of possibilities. The recombination of genes produces a variety of different plants, among which there may be individuals of great value. This is actually the source for future true-breeding strains. A breeder who recognizes an outstanding and unique individual from an F2 group can work with it to create a true-breeding hybrid strain such as was done with classics like Skunk #1 and Northern Lights. The methods to accomplish this task vary, but back crossing to the original unique plant is typically a part of a process which ultimately must accomplish the goal of creating a strain which breeds true for all the important traits which made the unique individual so valuable.

[Tead]

on this one the shell of the seed was stuck and would not allow the true leaves out, soo I did a risky move and removed it CAREFULLY, not the first time but always scary as hell!!

This is SO common. I hit it almost every time I grow a group of seeds. You dealt with it perfectly, and yes, it's a bit scarry every time I do it. Great job!

Cheers!

[The Butcher]

thanx Tead, Phatblunt and Flurple

And wheel your the man for clarifying that. I'd rep you but i cant til i spread some more love aroundSorry COBRA for missing that question.

[WheeloFortune]

np, and i agree with tead, i end up having to pull the shells off a bunch if i do a bunch. also agree with the scary comment. i have popped a couple heads off in my day.

btw,

Clarke RC. 1981. Marijuana Botony Ronin Publishing, California

cali cal cali, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tead]

Originally Posted by WheeloFortune

i have popped a couple heads off in my day.

Me too... very easy to do... be gentle.

Cheers!

[dgh420]

Does anyone here ever give the seeds a little crack before attempting germination? Reading a post about the seed pod not fully opening and thought I would ask.

[Flurple]

ive heard about scratching the outside of the seeds but cracking it i think would damage the seedling inside