Topping?

[budculture]

Hey folks, first time indoor grower. Been following all the advice on the site here and let me just say what an incredible resource this is! I wish I had this info when I was growing outdoors, but that was many moons ago now.(pre internet!)
I was wondering when (if ever) it was a good idea to "top" my plants? I used to do it all the time with my outdoor grows to create more sites for buds.
I'm running a mini setup with two grow areas. One 2'x2'x5' and one 2'x2'x3'.
I'm doing hydro, with a DWC in the main (larger) area w/10,400 lumens of mixed soft white and daylight CFLs. I'll change to all soft white with 12,000 lumens. I'd like to do 3-4 plants in a SCROG in that set up. Is that too many?
By topping I mean just pinching off the center growth just above the node so that it creates two branches from the site. I know about pruning for the SCROG, but i didn't know if creating more branches was a good idea with a small SCROG.
I also may need some advice on when to force flowering as this is a batch started from bagseed that I feminized, and I have about 8 seedling in veg that I'm going to grow for mothers if the strain is good.
I have many questions and a lot of info on my grow ( I'm trying to do this right!). I'll try to post some photos and start a journal since this is my first time indoors. The plants look really good IMO, but I have had to deal with some trial and error with nute mixes and water levels to stop drying and nute burn. Lots of PH testing it seems. The indoor stuff is doing WAY better than some seedlings I have outside, but the weather has sucked, so...still I had no idea how much faster and stronger they would grow indoors in a hydro setup. It's a lot of work compared to outdoor, but so far, the results look to be worth it.
Thanks for such an awesome site!

[Boss]

I think you should go for 10k lumens per square foot. It took me 20 lights to get there, but the results were good. But, when you get that many lights, you are running 400 watts anyway, so if you can get a small hps to help with the lumens you are in good shape, you won't need to run so many CFLS.

You can get by with less light, but you don't wan't a room full of cotton ball air buds at harvest. I think for me, the key was having all those lights seperated. It allowed me to place the light exactly when I wanted it and as close (I burned a few...)

Shoot for four 26w per plant if you can. (or) three 42w.

Good luck and welcome :-)

[DaMagoMan]

To top or not to top....(smrk)

I top everything so I can sex 'em(Take clones).

[DaMagoMan]

I top everything and flower clones.
All my Moma's are seedlings

That way I can top early,
before they mature,
and by the time they are mature,
I know who goes and who stays.

Cut 'em and stick 'em in dirt, fast
water and keep humid
Maybe just my strains but I've never had problems gettin' clones to root
Unless I had a bug infestation!

I've always found it harder
to clone a floweringCuttin', maybe just a dirt Thang

[DaMagoMan]

we used to root tone powder and stick them into a sand mix,then they were misted from above

That's the way I root roses :-)
I've tried without root tone and the success rate is way low.

Round sand pit about 8-12 inches deep
with a screw type spray nozzel(set to mist)on the end of a garden hose comin' up throught the middle,
clear plastic dome for a top.

[Boss]

There is SO much more involved then just these simple veg/flower times. Neither is better, they both have good and bad.

Think of it as a snapshot. You want to take your clones when the plant is at optimum health, and has shown signs that lead you to believe that the plant will carry the genetics that you want on to the next and the next. DNA changes in plants as it grows based on the environmental conditions. A clone in veg will have different DNA then a plant in flower. This could be good, bad, or make no difference whatsoever. The changes are, in most cases minor and not noticeable. Veg cloning tends to cause less stress if you clone before sexing, but this rarely occurs, and flower cloning gives you what you want, the passing down of preferred genetics at the point of flowering that assures a healthy flowering clone (if the flowering momma was healthy) at the cost of a few more days to revert the clone to veg and flower again.

Cutting in veg also has the downside of possibly harming DNA that was healthy during flowering, but due to re-vegging before the cutting, the DNA may not be as good as it was at the point of flowering.

Once you have determined sex, instead of taking the DNA at a point of strength and health, you stress the plant into veg, and then take a clone. You can see the possibility of genetic degradation.

But, Both methods work. I think the main reason people clone flowering plants is just because it makes things simple. Determine sex, clone, flower the mom, and re veg the clones.

I don't think you will se many people here run clones for 5 generations without seeding a momma and starting another strain. In my opinion anyway.

[budculture]

Hey thanks Boss. I probably do need more light. I was going CFL just so I could make my own fixture that would fit in my space and not put out too much heat. The guys at the plant store seem to be hooked on the fluoros. They say that even though they have less lumens, you can place the lights a lot closer without burning them, and you get more lumens that way. I'm not sure if these guys are growing weed , but i have my suspicions. I would like to be able to use a HPS in my space , but it may take a little ingenuity to deal with the heat.
Know of a good set up for the mini grow? I can get Sunleaves stuff locally. Any experience with their systems?
Thanks.

[Boss]

I think it boils down to what can be afforded at the time. That's how it was for me. I couldn't get more lights (CFL or otherwise) till I fixed the ventilation. Once I had 21 lights over my 3x3 area, because the heat was spread out, I got away with a low cfm fan, until they really started flowering. Then I had to get a carbon filter and better fans.

Once I had the fans, I started thinking about hps. One fan doing nothing but pullung air over the bulb and out, one fan to take care of circulation and the filter.

I have not taken the leap to hps yet either. Being able to keep the lights right next to the plants is a very large benefit, but a pain in the ass at the same time (they love to shake hands with my cfl's)

But after all is said and done, I calculated the lumens, the wattage and measured the heat. If you can get the air circulation and temps right, HPS gives you the most bang for the buck, it is the most cost effective solution per lumen on the market.

My 20 odd cfls ran about 35,000 lumens and used roughly 450 watts. With a 400 watt HPS, I would be running 55,000 lumens. The only difference being my lumens were ON the plants, not 2 feet above it. But if you have a good cooling setup, you can keep the hps very close to them as well.

If you run cfl's from now till you are done growing, you will get good results if you just keep it simple. So there is no driving need to change up, unless you think it will give you better results with the same or less effort then you are already putting in :-)


Wow, sorry I ranted on so long.. I better smoke a bowl :-)

[budculture]

Yeah, I actually did have some heat problems by placing the tt55 lamps too close initially, but 4-6 " seem to keep them from heat stress, and they seem to be growing well. I have some pics from a couple of days ago, but with a nute change and some misting/ CO2 they're taking off. I'm going to try to sex them so I can cull out the guys and concentrate on the nice girls.I may add some single 2' t5 lamps placed vertically on the sides to up the lumens. They make the t5 in a bloom temp now, so maybe...
Yeah I have sunk a little in cash, and I enjoy making my own stuff ( father was an engineer...) so maybe I'll see how this grow goes. I'm going to start another round from seed I think just to be ready. I'm going to try to engineer the hps into my cab. I don't want the light and fluffy buds. One of my stealth outdoor grows got too little light one time and the buds, although tasty, were like fluff, and weighed nothing. Me wantee dense and dank!
As far as topping, I don't think I'll do it as I have a lot of good side shoots and that should be sufficient fro SCROG in my mini cab setup.
I will try to post some photo's and get my journal going so I can get the sage advice from you cats.
Peace& Pedals