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12/12 Bag Seed - Blackberry Kush - Frankenberry - Girl Scout Cookies - 400W MH/HPS

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
So before I start blabbing let me put this succinctly...I started new seeds in Post #9 :)

Lights: 400 W Apollo HPS with air cooled hood
Schedule: 12/12 From seed
Soil: Black Gold Natural and Organic 0.5-0.0-0.0
Nutrients: General Hydroponics FloraNovia Grow and Bloom, Fox Farms Crystal Burst
Containers: Solo cups
Genetics: Old bagseed

So this is the first grow that I've tired from seed and I figured I would give the 12/12 from seed thing a try with some genetics I don't really care about. I had collected bag seed for years, like half a decade, so these seeds are anywhere from 5-10 years old. I had over 200 so I threw them all into some warm water to see which ones were still even viable. A little after 24 hours later I picked out 15 that had cracked and started showing the tap root. I figured that choosing these earlystarters would make sure they're the most vigorous of the ones that were still alive. I kind of just wanted to grow them because I said I always would at some point.

I am thinking about harvesting the pollen off of whatever males I get to do some selective breeding. If any of the girls turn out to be good smoke I'd like to get some more seeds, so I will save pollen from the healthier looking males and pollinate the bottom buds on the girls when they're in bloom--never collected pollen so not sure of the actual process. I'm not really sure how much seed they'll make or how that will stunt their growth since I'm going to bloom from seed but seeing as it's all bagseed, I'd rather weed through the lackluster genetics and find some good smoke before I worry about growing a bumper crop.

The last grow I did myself and virtually every other one I've been involved in have all used clones so I am pretty out of my element with the seedlings. Just waiting for them to sprout and then hoping I don't kill them before they really take off. I am really debating whether I want to do 12/12 from seed so I have until they sprout to make up my mind, otherwise I will probably be doing 13/10 or the Gas Lantern schedule to save electricity. I like that the 12/12 from seed method usually cuts about a month off the time to finish though, but given these are such old seeds and I can't even expect vigor I am not sure if that's really a good expectation to have with these. So I might just do this crop with a little vegetative period, get some seeds from vigorous plants, and then do those 12/12 from sprout.



As you can see I ran out of room in the clone dome, but it doesn't seem like the ones outside of it are drying off any faster. It's also just nice to have a tray underneath to keep the runoff off of the floor.
 

mrbubbles87

Well-Known Member
Looks great!

You could put quart zip lock baggies over the extras to make mini individual domes. I've also had good luck putting saran wrap across the top of the Dixie cups too.

There are several methods for harvesting pollen. I've only done 1 breeding project myself so take this with a grain of salt. I struggled to collect the pollen. I tried the different baggie methods, I also tried using a paint brush, but the most success I had was just shaking the male over the females. Obviously this prevents much of a crop as the plants will be heavily seeded. I'd recommend separating your male/females. Taking a single clone from each female and using the clones to breed with your male. You can literally grow the clones 6in tall and get hundreds of seeds. It would inly stall your current crop by a few weeks.

Hope that helps a little. Best of luck to you! [emoji120]

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STIHL LOGGER

Well-Known Member
Heya fertilizer! Seems like ya are a man with a plan. Thats a good thing my friend.. If ya are growin the males in solo cups.. When ya get a decent amount of male pollen sacks take tha lil guy out and tap its branches with the stick end of a wooden spoon or similar tapping device, over a sheet of black paper board. Be sure to fold it in half first then flatten it back out.. Makes pollen collection almost effortless and makes it super easy to get it into a small jar for storage. :thumb:


p.s. baby food or small olive jars are ideal (size wise) this makes it easy to stick a q-tip or small paint brush in later to give your fem buds a proper "money shot" Lolz
 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the tips guys! So far I am a little bit limited to my tent. I do have some food CFLs and a corner I could hang them in just to veg clones but there's an energy usage concern. Not to get too far ahead of myself though, so far still no sprouts. I may have planted them a little deep.

I did get some tents on the other cups though, as well as a nice digital thermometer/hygrometer. Litter concerned with how low the humidity is, 30 percent. I moved the light a little closer to the plants so it keeps the temperature up a little higher for them as it keeps dipping below 70 lately. I swear it can't decide if it wants to be 90 degrees out one day or 70 the next. Now all the sudden it's dropped to 50 degrees out tonight, I feel bad for outdoor crops.


Crossing my fingers something sprouts tomorrow or the morning after. I may have been keeping the cups too wet so we'll see.
 

mrbubbles87

Well-Known Member
You could use a small cardboard box with a single CFL in it. That would be more than enough for a breeding chamber.

I dont know your budget but especially for veg you'll want a humidifier in the tent. You can get away without it but you'll need to mist them with water several times a day with your lights dimmed or off.

The balance between too much water and not enough is tricky with seedlings. I try to keep mine on the drier side. Instead of watering I usually just spray the soil for a few seconds a day. This help keeps the top soil moist but prevents me from overwatering. I use one of the white plastic weed sprayers from walmart. You can even water plants with it during the early stages.

That's a pretty powerful light for seedlings. I usually start them under fluorescents. You can grow seeds under hid but you will need to pull the light up further away. Also, hids are more difficult to maintain higher humidity because you have to constantly vent the hot air which also pulls out your humdity.

Those temp fluctuations are pretty extreme. You may need a space heater if it dips that low at night. Plus if your hitting 90f in there already it's going to get really hot in the summer. You may want to get a swamp cooler which will cool it down and increase humidity. Unless I'm reading that wrong and your just talking about outside temps lol.

I keep my veg between 70-80f. You can get over 80f if your humidity is high enough. One of my veg tents can run 90f with 80% humidity and the girls love it. Vapor pressure deficit :)

Not sure how this is setup in your house but what I've done is hook my tent directly up to my houses central AC duct. These keeps it nice and cool in the summer. I only struggle with temps in the spring/fall when it's too cool for ac and too hot for the heater. During these seasons it's a constant juggling act with vent lines to keep temps in range.

Sprout times for me average 5 days. I usually plant very shallow. I use a stick and distress the top soil, place the seed, and then use the stick to cover the seed with the loose soil. I've had to dig them out in the past. If you don't see a sprout in 10 days you might have to do the same.

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TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
Oh yeah I was just talking about outside temperatures. I only have a little 5k but AC though so when the temperature climbs outside it gets hard to keep it down in here. So it will be more like 70 the n my room at night if I run the AC, and then in the morning it will end up 65.



I have mine in my room, the exhaust is in an old furnace vent. I had planned on sealing the front off and venting it all up the chimney, but it actually helps keep my living room a little cooler by circulatimg the air around.

I have been using a sprayer to spray the surface too. I think I planted them about 1/4 inch but I was worried it wasn't deep enough and sprinkled a little it on top. So hopefully I won't have to dig then out.

I hope I didn't already throw all my big boxes out. How small a CFL are we talking? I have 5 100 Watters, they're pretty big though. Like 12 inches by 4, so I think I would need a really big box to keep it far enough away. Maybe I should get a smaller one from a store?

I am mostly running it thst close to get the soil a little warm, then they break surface I am probably going to dim it to half percent and move the light up 12 to 24 inches. I am trying to avoid stretch too though so I am not sure how high is too high.

My only experience with a seed is from an Obsession that went hermie. I was veg'ing other plants with those CFLs and it was probably 3 feet above it, it wound up sprouting with a 5 inch stalk trying to get the light lol I am hoping the HID even a good distance away will be strong enough.

My buddy just gave me 10 Blackberry Kush and 3 Frankenberry seeds and another wants to sell me some Platinum Girl Scout Cookies and has a whole assortment of other genetics. Not quite comfortable with the seed banks yet so that will be awesome.
 

mrbubbles87

Well-Known Member
Those temps aren't bad then. Everytime I switch to a new room or setup it usually takes a full year to dial it in because of the changing seasons. I draw intake from outside most of the year and then in the summer I hook directly up to my central AC duct for my house. I do exhaust into my house year round for security reasons. It's great in the winter but in the summer it gets a little spendy. I do exhaust to a separate room.

1/4 should be fine. Mine usually sprout right on day 5.

It really doesn't have to be a big box. When I bred my seeds I used a 2x4 tent with 10 1/2 gal females and 1 1gal male. They ranged from 6 to 14 in tall (sativas and indicas). I only used 3 4' 40watt t8s and still pulled over 50 seeds per plant plus some kief for the rosin press. You could use a 2x2x2 box with a single CFL and fit 6 to 8 plants. Maybe a small pc fan for exhaust. I haven't grown with cfls in awhile but when I did they usually needed to be within inches of the tops and didn't run too hot. You could probably even get away with a 40w CFL and a cheap clip on reflector. You really can beat the hell out of a seed crop and still get good results. I fed mine once and barely ever watered them lol.

Here's a shot of some of the crosses if you don't mind me sharing.



The HID will be a big difference. 600 watts for a 4x4 is perfect.

That's sick that you have buddies with good genetics. I went through the seed banks a few years ago. Only bought singles tho instead of 10 packs so I couldn't pheno hunt. Got a huge variety for cheap tho. Some were really good most were duds. Met Crockett at the Denver cup last year and got some his genetics. Also met Dj short, TGA, Devils harvest, raskal og, and tons of others. Much better experience than the seed banks. They actually talk to you about the strain and give you advice. Plus they tell you what phenos to look for and will recommend a strain based on your preferences. Was totally bummed they didn't have a cup this year. Glad I made my crosses because I created 9 new strains but I still need to pheno hunt them and see what I've got.
 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
Well I decided to go dogging to see what I had, and it looks like all but two were hopeless. I couldn't find a few of the seeds but most had not even formed tap roots. One had a tap root going, probably stunted it by exposing it to air....

I wound up with this one so far. Just barely sprouting. I took the tents off because I am worried about damping-off. Black Gold can be some soggy stuff anyway.



I wonder if it's okay to pop seeds into the other cups? I can account for three so far, I wonder if there's any chance they could sproit after or like decay and cause the soil to be diseased. Probably over-thinking it.

Anyway I guess I will let these do their thing for kicks to see what happens but I think I will include that in another journal. I have some Girl Scout Cookies, Blackberry Kush and Frankenberry to try. I will probably skip germination and just plant them straight into the medium.

It's hard to say if this was grower error or the old seeds but I am betting old seeds. I have popped a Bubba Kush x Obsession seed out of Black Gold in five days and it was planted much deeper than these. Anyway I'd say this one was a bust!

Still want to save these genetics though, so since it's probably a male I am going to harvest some pollen off it and cross them with some of these other nicer genetics I have and see what happens. There was just something about that old stuff that got me stoned in a way new stuff doesn't, maybe it can influence the new genes in a cross.
 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
Well, so much for those lost genetics. I thought it needed a little help getting out of the seed husk and tried to pull it off and uprooted the little guy. I tried to replant it but, a few days later, I just decided to scrap it after some of the Frankenberry and Blackberry Kush seeds I planted sprouted.

I am also quite peeved about the Girl Scout Cookies... I actually shelled out money for these from a buddy and was told they were feminzed, so far it's been 6 days since I planted them and they haven't sprouted. Meanwhile I had 3 Frankeberry seeds that looked way too undeveloped to do anything at all, but one of them sprouted :D I also have 4 Blackberry Kush seedlings now, they sprouted SUPER fast. I planted them 4/30 and they popped 5/3. Unfortunately I had an accident with a box fan falling and smashing one of the cups the 5th BB Kush seed was in. I didn't notice it for quite a while and then when I went to pull the seed out to replant something else it actually looked quite healthy, I checked it again tonight ( probably not a good idea but just for learning sake ) and it's still trying to sprout. I'm sure it will be stunted so I am probably just going to pull it but I want to see what happens. I am getting quite anxious that the GSC seeds were too old, it's funny they looked the most viable out of them. The Blackberry Kush seeds are the weirdest ones I've ever seen, they look like lemons or litlte footballs, I honestly didn't even think they would grow.

So I sacrificed one of the GSC cups and dug up the seed and was super disappointed to see it hadn't even germinated at all. It just cracked open and showed a little hint of white. Should have got a pic before I tossed it, but anyway I am wondering if maybe this strain doesn't want to stay so damp or something so I replanted another in the same up but going without the humidity tent this time around. Just wondering if I didn't drown them. I am pretty irritated with the idea they may just be bad seeds though, because I paid 3 bucks a pop for them!

So anyway seeing as the Kush and Frankenberry seeds were bagseed, i guess this still counts as a bagseed grow! I am really curious if the pace that these are growing at is normal. I didn't get any information on if they were cross pollenated or hermie of course. Maybe I got lucky at got and F1 and they all have "hybrid vigor"... Hey a guy can dream. Seeing as they grew so well, I planted a few more. So now I have 9, counting the one that got smashed with a fan.

Anway, pictures...

5/4


5/5


Only about half a day later...


5/6
Frankenberry lives, its in the solo cup on the red saucers without the tent...




The blackberry Kushes are now in the bottom of the tray (the one furthest to the left caught the fan), the GSC are above that (the one on the left is the newly planted one I'm trying without a tent) and the rest of the ones on the red saucers that have tents are newly planted Blackberry Kushes.

The rest of the pics aren't too well in focus since the fan was blowing, but it's interesting the Blackberry Kush that looked like it was stuck inside its shell is now the largest





Growing from seed is definitely a different experience than from clones, but I really want to see how things go with this 12/12 method because the beauty I see in it is that I wouldn't really need any other lights or separate rooms to start cycling. So far though I am really out of my realm growing with seeds though, it seems a lot of this comes down to not counting chickens before they hatch. I had hoped to grow out five of the GSC and have them be mostly female but from the looks of it they're not even going to grow and so now I'm playing the odds games. Then of course there's the chances that they could be hermies!

So this should be lots of fun :D Check back in later if I don't kill them. Wish me luck that at least one of the GSCs will pop!
 

Frenchy672

New Member
it's so hard when they're seedlings to not want to help them. I've done the same things, literally all of them. dropped a fan on my DWC plant [few days ago], over watered, had so many seeds fail when I've never really had any issues before. I've had seeds barely crack...some show a taproot but never grow, I was like FFFUUUU- butttttt....I've been told so many times, "less is more" ESPECIALLY when they are seedlings.

You just gotta plant them and leave them alone?....like that's easy. But it's been the ONLY way back to sucess...It's once I got serious about actually growing did I only run into issues....it was because I was doing exactly that, getting too serious about it. I've learned that even if you think there could be an issue, leave it, give it the full 2 weeks to completely ensure its not going anywhere. I had 1 that I tried in rockwool, transfered to Rapid Rooters, and played around with in the RR and figured it was done for. said, "meh, whatever I'll leave it and see what happens..." sure as shiz it popped 1 day before 2 weeks was up. It popped up all yellow but returned to green less than 1 day later and is still growing healthy to this day.

Also, try to let the seedlings curl and release their seed helmets by themselves and crack their embryos themselves. if it takes more than 4 5 days [for example: maybe more, maybe less] then I would start to think about assisting them.

I've gained a new acceptance to the intelligence this plant and all other plant forms actually have. They've been doing this for millions of years and have gotten it down perfect by themselves, so when they're young or sick, just like when you get sick, you wanna be left alone/be nursed to get better. :)

I'm not criticizing you at all just trying to share my similar feelings/experiences. I've actually only really had sucess before with clones and plants handed down to me before joining this site. Best of luck to you in the future I'll be watching in the corner :48: :thumb:
 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
Yeah I had to fight myself not to water them last night even though the top soil was looking dry. It still felt moist though and experience with this soil has been it takes a while to dry out completely.

BLACK GOLD® NATURAL & ORGANIC POTTING SOIL WITH RESILIENCE®
Description:

Made from the finest ingredients and OMRI Listed for organic gardening, our all-purpose Black Gold® Natural & Organic Potting Soil is recommended for containers and raised beds. Enriched with earthworm castings, it contains a mix of peat moss and compost in addition to perlite and pumice to ensure good aeration. This product contains RESiLIENCE®, which may improve resistance to wilting.

Available Sizes:

8 QT (240/pallet), 16 QT (120/pallet), 1.0 CF (70/pallet), 1.5 CF (50/pallet), 2.0 CF (40/pallet), 60 CF tote size available

Ingredients:

Canadian Sphagnum peat moss, bark, compost, perlite or pumice or cinders, earthworm castings, and organic fertilizer

Applications:

Ideal for all container-grown flowers, herbs and vegetables.
BLACK GOLD – All the riches of the earthNatural and Organic Potting Soils - Black Gold

My results growing from clone were potent but I just didn't get a lot, mostly because I stopped early due to environmental concerns, looked like I was getting budrot as I had no way to ventilate and the temperatures were 90 plus. I was hoping with optimal setup and equipment I'll do better, but there's just this learning curve of doing it from seed.



Hopefully I can get better yield and taste this time around. Frankly I think it was just the genetics that helped those turn out ad good.
 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
:cheer: A GSC popped!



The Frankenberry is an interesting one, it's got three cotyldeons!



Meanwhile, the Blackberry Kush plants are all nice and happy!

BB Kush #5, this one doesn't want to let go of its seed husk still! It doesn't seem to be holding it back any though!



BB Kush #4



BB Kush #3



BB Kush #2



So the count so far...

BB Kush #5 planted 4/30 and sprouted 5/4
BB Kush $4 planted 4/30 and sprouted 5/4
BB Kush #3 planted 4/30 and sprouted 5/5
BB Kush #2 planted 4/30 and sprouted 5/5
Frankenberry planted 4/30 and sprouted 5/6
GSC #2 planted 4/30 and sprouted 5/7

I went ahead and watered today, some of the pots seem to dry quicker than others with no real rhyme or reason. Peculiar, anyway just crossing my fingers that I didn't water too soon and won't stunt anything.

So I am still leaving the tent off the other GSC cup, just to see if it sprouts sooner or later than the ones with the tents. I asked my friend who sold them to me and he said that they should only be about a month old. They are rather small seeds, maybe the small ones just take longer?

In other events I cleaned up my grow tent a little bit I am thinking about getting an intake filter or something, I have 3 cats and their hair really gets all over the place. Meanwhile I noticed a couple of bugs crawling around on the floor and I'm not sure what they are, but they look like they could be thrips. I only have neem right now though, meant to get some insecticidal soap but had other pressing expenses. I did get some Palmolive though so I might just try mixing that up and spraying them with that, maybe with some alcohol, try to get at them before a real infestation builds. I am really not sure they're thrips though, I have been finding these same bugs all over my house. I think it's from the bush outside my window, tomorrow the air conditioner is coming out and the Ortho Bug Defense is going down. Might hit up the bush with some neem but I don't think it will do any good against the thrips, but whatever I don't want it getting mites either. All my neighbors have tomato plants and various herbs planted outside their apartments and I can see the mites from six feet away! *crosses fingers in front of hiim and splashes holy water*

Anyway, let's root for more of these GSC to pop, and maybe this BB Kush I smashed with a fan too lol

Does anyone have an opinion on when to start nutes? Black Gold has an NPK rating of 0.05-0-0 not 0.5 so it's pretty much barren. My Jorge Cervantes book says that they should get enough dissolved solids from tap water though, and meanwhile my GH Flora Nova feed chart says to start them out at 1.5 mL/gal at 1 week.
 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
Well today I noticed that the the BB Kush #5 was slouching over a little bit. I'm not really sure what's going on with it. I did have a box fan pointed at it, maybe it was up too high or something. So I propped it up with a pen tube...I moved it over just in case it was trying to stretch for light but I don't think it is. The other ones are looking okay I guess, my tripoloid now has three leaves. The BB Kush #1 wasn't going to sprout, I dug it up and its tap root was bone dry and snapped. I planted a new one.

Not sure if I am watering too much or too little...






 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
One of the other BB Kush fell over, I have propped them both up now. I moved the light down a little bit to help prevent stretch, I don't think any of them are getting light stress. Another GSC finally popped as well as two more BB Kush plants. The Kush is a super fast grower it seems, of the ones planted on the 6th two are already sprouted. Meanwhile my Frankenberry mutant isn't looking so healthy.

I have the light about 2 feet, maybe 2 and a half, over the plants now


I've propped them up, hopefully I don't need to lower the light anymore to stop the stretching. I am not sure if these leaves look too healthy either... I wonder if its' needing nutrients, it's at about 1 week.



BB Kush #2 and #3 are looking good.


Now I have 2 GSC




The Frankenberry triploid looking all messed up. I'm not sure if it's really going to be able to put on its first set of leaves, it's kind of deformed.



So I am really hoping that the rest of the cookies sprout, I am pretty confident the BB Kush ones will sprout very quickly, I am amazed how easily the seeds grow especially because they looked very premature and deformed looking. In fact I think I might get a picture of them up before sprouting more just to really demonstrate. I almost wonder if I shouldn't take one out while it's still young to grow as a mother plant for clones. I still think I'm going to try to get seeds but a part of me thinks that cloning would be the only real way to preserve the traits I really like, I am just not really setup for it right now and probably won't be for a while. I wonder what it will do to them to be taken out of 12/12 at this point and put into a longer light schedule. It might behoove me to throw them into a 13/10 light cycle now to keep them veg'ing and have time to get clones but that really defeats the purpose of trying it 12/12 from seed...
 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
Well I am still really unsure about how these are looking. I don't think I am watering them too much, but their leaves are kind of ruffled and cupping downward as if i was. Meanwhile they're still kind of leaning over on themselves. I am really worried because under close inspection I think I can see trichomes... Which really doesn't make a lot of sense, but I have seen this before on vegetation just didn't think it could be this early. It kind of shocked me at first though because I thought they were mite eggs, but I've seen plenty of those as well and there's not really any other sign of an infestation (don't mind the cat hair and my dandruff blech). On top of that there are visible stalks which, with mite eggs, you don't really see. The leaves are just getting crystally already, I guess because of the 12/12 from seed. I guess maybe the signs of stress in the leaves are just by the nature of growing them like this I don't know, but the BB Kush #4 and #5 have their second set of leaves now, even though they can't really seem to stand on their own weight. I hope the light being lowered keeps nay of the more recent BB Kush sprouts and my GSC sprouts from stretching much in the same way. Meanwhile, the frankenberry triploid is looking like a deformed mess... It looks as if it's been consuming its own leaves to form newer ones.

I'm not sure when is too early to start a neem regiment, but I think I should probably start soon. I have had mite problems in the past and would rather keep them down before they ever gain a foothold, but these babies are pretty tender still. I am considering giving them trace doses, inoculations if you will. I have heard root drench formulas call for 4 tsp per gallon and foliar sprays for 2, so I think perhaps 1/4 tsp mix into a gallon will be practically unnoticeable for the plant. I don't know if it's okay to foliar spray seedlings though, especially ones that are already flopping around.

I've kind of lost track of when I planted and when they sprouted at this point... I should start marking the sprout dates on the cups next to the plant dates. I guess I'll do that in the future. The new BB Kushes are only a few days old though, and the oldest are nearing their first week.

 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
Well I think I have mites so I sprayed and soil drenched with neem mixture. My mix was 1 tsp palm olive (pure and clear) and 2 of neem oil, mixed in the measuring cup until milky white/yellow. Hopefully they will tolerate the neem, but the mites will quickly cause more damage if present and left unchecked. Also switched to a MH bulb since I think it will help stop the stretching.

Reasons I think it's mites....

Leaves look over watered and bumpy
Possible eggs in leaves (could be resin though)
Yellow spots on Frankenberry (except it could just be because it's a weak plant)
Leaves turning in sideways in GSC (big big big mite indicator)

 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
Well, some more pics. The biggest ones are about 10 days old and the smaller ones maybe a week, they're looking a little bit better, not really sure what the issue was but I think the leaves are looking better. I think I will probably flush them out with water pH'd to 6.5 and a super low amount of nutrient, just to make sure I don't have any pH issues. The neem oil knocked the runoff pH to something way high over 9 or something.

 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
I gave them their first dose of nutrients last night, just the older ones in the front row. They look to be doing pretty good. I mixed up 1.5 mL of GH Flora Nova Grow and 1/4 tsp of OG Tea Veganic Special sauce into a gallon, pH'd to 6 to 6.5 and drenched the cups. I gave the younger ones a little top dressing of the OG Tea and watered with plain 7 pH water. They're looking really good today, the eldest Blackberry Kushes are starting to give off some lovely fragrance. I think I'll probably need to up-pot them or at least get them out of the tray so they feel they can stretch out. I am just trying to get the other ones to get a little bigger first so I don't have to worry about raising the light for a larger base area of light, then I'm going to take them out and give them their own individual trays and a little space. I don't mind them being a little compact for now, I'd like them to focus more on vertical than side branching. Anyway blah blah blah here's some pics.

 
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