300W LED vs. 400W HID Demonstration

[dogsnova]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

If the 400w HID had not been on a light mover, would you still have run it at 12"?

Ah..... Excellent question..

No mover in a 34" x 34" area and fan mounted away from the hood.. We needed a 6" vortex fan huffing full throttle to keep the light 12" off the canopy.. This setup was waaaay too loud for my liking...

With the 4" Sunleaves wind tunnel fan mounted away from the hood and no mover... 14" was as close as we could do.. And that was pushing it..

We did put the 4" wind tunnel fan right off the hood and was able to lower the light down to 12".. But man that was a lot of weight with the hood,glass,bulb,blower all as one unit... It worked but scared the hell out of me.. kept thinking it's all going to fall soon.. We ditched this setup shortly after setting it up.. lol.. The ceiling wasn't strong enough...

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

OK cool, thanks dog, that's very helpful.

I've got both lights at 15" off the canopy now with no stress, so I should be able to go a bit lower as bloom progresses.

The fans blowing up through the canopy are allowing me to go lower than I'd be able to otherwise.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Sorry for the lack of recent updates.

I've shot more videos and pics, but Mrs. Sun has been getting short-shrifted, so I need to spend some time cultivating other things once in a while.

I should be able to do an update tonight, after our walk .

 

[Propa Gator]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Mrs. Sun has been getting short-shrifted

Tunnel vision yields no propa garden view

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

It's a double-edged sword.

Get's things done, but often at the expense of others.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

A video from yesterday:


YouTube - LED/HID 10-19-10

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

apologies to those on dial-up for the mega-update.

the LED plants:

the HID plants:

Things are looking good in early bloom. Both tents are filling in nicely, and there's lots of bud sites. The HID buckets are drying out faster, and are going to be needing water every 2 days very soon. The LED watering interval is 3-4 days.

The LED plants have stretched about 6" since the flip, and the HID plants about 1-2" more. The tallest plant right now is only 18", so they'll probably stretch some more, but if I can keep them under 24", I'll be real happy, especially with an African sativa.

The LED plants continue to give me less trouble. I'm getting a mild mag deficiency again in the HID tent after switching to tap water, so it just has too much calcium. The lime deposits in our plumbing fixtures should have been enough to give me a clue.

So, I think I will finish out the grow with rainwater and/or RO, supplemented with cal-mag and PH'ed down to 6.0.

My tap water doesn't give me any trouble in soil, so it must have to do with coco's affinity for calcium and/or some other coco idiosyncrasy. No problem, I'll start with a clean slate and won't be guessing.

For the next update, I'll take some plants out of each tent and take side-by-side pics with equal lighting.

Overall, early bloom is looking real good

 

[ProblemChild]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Im in on this!! and they just started flowering oh yeah.. lets see the difference!!

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

ProblemChild

good time to sub!

 

[molotov]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Looking good SS. Did you have the same problem with the hempy buckets and perlite on the last grow with your tap water? I can't recall any conversations on that topic.

 

[Two Tokes]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Thanks for the nice video and the pics. Looks like the two sides are in a pretty even race at the moment.

 

[Dexter4Morgan]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

I found out about Epsom salt for garden plants last year. Huge difference with the peppers and tomatoes. How much per gallon have you been giving the ladies ?

 

[Troublesome2]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

WOOOO HOOOO!!!! Them some super sexy ladies you got there Love the video update man an awesome addition to your thread 4 sure. Love the show man keep it up this stuffs better than cable lol

 

[IrishBoy]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

they look great, filling in nice. its hard to tell but it looks like the led plants a slightly ahead in flowering then the HID, it this correct? if so it look barley. thats crazy how the HID only stretched 1-2" more.

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

I was going to update tonight, but looks like I'll be going out of town for a day or two.

I'll get caught up on questions/comments tonight, but not sure if I'll get a chance to post any new pics or videos.

All the plants are doing great and budding up nicely. Both tents are wall-to-wall and fully into bloom.

"can you hear me, Major Tom?
can you hear me, Major Tom?"

 

[The Lurker]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

TL, Thanks for the awesome inforamtion and thanks to everyone else for the discussion. Blown away.

Thanks TT, glad you enjoyed it! Was fun puttin' it all together. A Labor of Like if you will.

I like your name ,too.

(Two Tokes: for when one toke just won't cut it!)

TL awesome post + reps if I can....

In all of my testing I have found that 12" to 15" is MY strains optimal distance for an air cooled 400w HPS...

Your post just explained exactly why that is...

Starting out the flowering cycle with high canopy light intensity and working your way towards a lower canopy light intensity helps prevent oxidation to the mature flowers that is in turn caused by radiant heat coming off the HID bulb.. By pulling the HID light up off the canopy towards the end of the flowering cycle I've found this greatly decreased the sunburn effect to my mature flowers.. Just as TL posted about..

Thanks Dog, you have an interesting take on flowering. I agree we're constantly fighting degradation near the end of the plant's life in an effort to reach a positive dynamic equilibrium with regards to trichome production. If it works, do it!

Man, Lurker... posts like these are why I nommed you for MOM!

This is also why I went vertical CMH...

Thanks man! Didn't even know I'd been nominated until you mentioned it here. I should pay more attention to what's goin' on around here lol!

Interested to see how your vertical turns out. I liked your earlier contraptions (pipe-full-o-roots!), are you finding you miss that stuff in exchange for the simplicity of Hempy and the theatre-in-the-round?

Awesome post TL!
Very understandable, both your explanations and your graphs.

I do have a digital light meter, but I've been too beat to do much more than keep up with the essentials.

Now that you've posted this data, however, I'm much more motivated to get some numbers.

a *lot* of work went into that post, and I've never seen the issue broken down so well before.

you rock bro

Thanks very much SS, you know my methods. Sometimes, it's not just madness, I swear!

I like your video updates also, a good addition to your normal comprehensive journaling. You've got those girls all a-flutter (did you take off your shirt or something?) Nice to see some Moving Pictures (through The Camera Eye).

<cue Rush music>

A modern-day warrior mean mean stride
Today's Tom Sawyer PPP pride

Though your mind is not For Rent, I don't put you down as arrogant, either...
----

As to your HID deficiencies, those are rather interesting. Coco's not the best buffering agent - much less like soil than pure (liquid) hydro. (Soil can be good when prepared properly, but sometimes I think even the Doc's faith in soil's capacity to buffer sometimes outstrips its actual ability to do so.) RO and CalMag will definitely help. It can be inconvenient to keep mixing, but at least it gives one a known quantity from which to build a solid nutrient profile upon. As most cooks know, you can always add more - but you can't take away. (Like Prego: 'It's in there!')

(Ok, now that's making me hungry for my house-wide famous spaghetti sauce. Let's see: ground beef, tomatoes, tomato paste, fresh basil, parsley, yellow onions, roasted minced garlic, green peppers, oregano, olive oil, balsamic vinegar, dash of salt n' pepper, pinch o' red pepper (secret ingredient!), corn starch, a little old vine zinfandel...mmmmm!...)


Where was I? Oh, yes...deficiencies, and buffering. Here's what I think, and this is just idle speculation, haven't bothered looking up any cites for this one. I'll leave that to other folks. YMMV...

Your plants had several days under MH or LED with which to become somewhat accustomed to the light after you transplanted (with the existing root system still suspended in the good, washed coco), and then your issues started showing up a week+ later.

Here's the SPD (Spectral Power Distribution) for a typical Sylvania MetalArc bulb:

Apart from a low band in the far-blue/violet range and that one smaller spike around 470 nm, overall distribution is kinda choppy and haphazard, and not as much blue as one might think. A lot more in the greens and yellow, actually. And the intensity isn't too bad from that far away - and you've got a nice secondary barrier (tempered glass lens) in the way, too.

The LED, in contrast, has nearly 30% of its total output in the blue range. And it's a pretty high density overall, too. (More than I'd use, definitely)

My guess is that all the extra blue in the LED (both in %, and higher intensity) is kicking the plants into 'create sunscreen' mode big-time, esp. the first couple of weeks. You see what runts this light creates of (the tops of) buds even 12-14" away. Well, all that ('sunscreen') stuff is basically antioxidants, like you'd get from raspberries, grapes, acai, red wine, green tea, and the like. Those work pretty much the same way in plants as they do in humans - protect us from things that're bad for us.

In effect, the lopsided spectrum in that light is (purely concidentally) also making the plant create some of its own buffering agents, which are somewhat combating things like the excess salinity (and high ion environments resulting from over-nuting or alkalinity, etc.).

Something that's not needed in a healthy plant environment (and actually stunts production somewhat), but one that just happens to reduce some of the deleterious effects when it's not.
-----

I guess plants must like red wine, too. I also find that when some red wine's administered to the gardener, the plants seem happier, also...

That also means that one could still have mild-to-moderate issues in the substrate, and not know it - i.e. which might not even show up as much in the plants under (this particular) LED - if it weren't for the canary in the coalmine (HID). Those issues would still have an effect, though, definitely.

Not to get all Eastern or anything, but imbalances always manifest in the energy system before becoming evident on the physical realm. All growers (hydro especially) know this once they start measuring TDS/EC/ppm/pH. Once you start to see it in the plant, it's already been going on in some fashion for a period of time. You just see it faster in hydro, usually.


Another reason why I'd keep rinsing your pots for awhile (still some excess salt, probably, outside of any separate issues from using tap). Any advantage one side or the other has in veg will translate into flowering as well. (Race might be a few kilometers, but a 100m head start still makes a difference...)
-----

Anyway, that's my theory, and I'm stickin' to it! :rolleyes3 (for now)

<Whatever it is I've been smokin' - I want some more! >

Have a good trip Sun,

-TL

 

[Tyrone Hamilton]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

TThanks man! Didn't even know I'd been nominated until you mentioned it here. I should pay more attention to what's goin' on around here lol!

Interested to see how your vertical turns out. I liked your earlier contraptions (pipe-full-o-roots!), are you finding you miss that stuff in exchange for the simplicity of Hempy and the theatre-in-the-round?

You deserve it - OB-1 says so... Might have to change my name to that...

Yes... I do miss the experimental garden... I've saved the tubes though, so you might see them again... I still have one of the root systems pinned up on my wall... I think all I need is a center drip to keep the middle of the mass from dying.

Hempy is nice, and I like the fact that I still have a lot to learn about how my variables (tap water, light) affect things. Keeps it interesting.

Going to school on this thread for sure. Thanks Sun!

 

[The Lurker]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

PAR [Photosynthetically active radiation] in W m-2, PPF [Photosynthetic photon flux] in micromols m-2s-1, PPF mo' bettah' cause it take da action spectrum and photon energies into account.

Lux, lumens, and foot candles don't tell much to agronomists

Yep. I was using the more general definition of PAR of course, and simply added the units I was using to show whether I was referring to an energetic (power) vs. photonic (quantum) system of measurement. Calling it PPFD would be more precise. Don't think anyone thought I meant PAR Watts, but you never know.

Most folks are familiar with photometric units, so it's still useful as a starting point (and a gentle segue into radiometric ones), in some cases. And useful for estimates in the absence of good testing equipment...

(Even Apogees aren't that cheap, but good ones cost a lot more)

Let's not even mention McCree v. Inada et. al. and YPF, shall we? Gotta start somewhere...

The chloroplasts move from the leaf surfaces to the sides and stack themselves under supersaturation illumination to minimize oxidation issues by minimizing their exposure to light. They hide.

Yes, photosynthesis is a pretty dynamic process. The granum like to do the Hokey Pokey, and then turn sideways and suck in their gut like Bruce Willis looking in the mirror. Bonfire of the Vanities?

Even a skinny kid'll eventually get burned if he up and pulls an Icarus, after awhile. Thus:

Attack of the Thylakoids-- Available On PSI & PSII

Could you please make me one of those pretty graphics that shows the effects of the inverse square law on solar intensities [in PPF, of course] in the range of from, say the bottom of the Mariana Trench to the top of Mt. Everest?

You planning on growing underwater? __

Always pushing the (growing) envelope, eh Marmaduke? I like it!
----

Sure bel, whatever you want. Here ya go:

(click to enlarge)

----
Gosh, but that PPFD really takes a dump at salt water, don't it?

<plonk>

...<shoooooolp!>

Here's a close-up around a particular area of interest:
----

Since you mentioned Mariana I used an attenuation coefficient kD suitable to very clear ocean water (~0.03) at depth. Further in near the continental shelf and coastline that could easily reach 0.1 and much higher, so adjust these #'s by an order of magnitude closer to shore. (Call the above a 'best-case' scenario with respect to penetration.)

In turbid waters inland where it's 1.0 m-1 and higher, fuhgeddaboudit.
----

Most aquatic plants grow ok down to a ~30-80 PPFD range; some'll produce in as little as ~12 or so, within the euphotic zone. Lower than that, and they aren't too happy.

I also used an increasingly decreasing hyperexponential factor m near the surface of roughly ~0.2 (starting out). It varies where you are (naturally) - in coastal waters off the UK it's closer to 0.4; out to sea, it's lower, etc.

As you descend you lose the reds first, than the orange, yellows, etc. Once you get past ~5-7m or so, after that the light becomes essentially monochromatic - and as such, much more closely follows the Beer-Lambert law.

That assumes the water has no funky characteristics or further stratification (like going across a thermocline) and the like.

Oh, and here's yer data:

Anything else you need?

(Best I could do on short notice.)
-------------------

Speaking of Deep Water Culture, it'd be pretty cool to grow underwater like that - say, at 8-9m down. Is this what you had in mind?

Though instead of DWC, you'd have to adjust your methodology, growing in a Deep UNderwater Culture Environment; i.e.

DUNCE! __

Without supplemental light, you'd probably be relegated to veg, though. A few LEDs might help tremendously. Could probably rig up some dynamos to a turbine that gets power from the waves and current...

...and when it's too calm out and ya need emergency power, you could always hook up some Tuna or Sturgeon to an aquatic hamster wheel and have 'em paddle away.

(spinnin' their fins?)
--------------

Plant maintenance might be a bit of work, though, especially if you had to commute.

I can see it now at Jardin du Mard:

"Grab the SCUBA gear, son; it's watering time!"
----

I think it'd work just fine living there, too...except, you might have to resupply through Captain Nemo.

(Don't wanna get too pudgy down there, so you might ask him to bring along some Nautilus equipment. )

DUNCE - it's brilliant! __

(A DUNCE CELSS - courtesy of BM Enterprises, Inc.)

Thanx for picking up the heavy lifting TL , I'm too olde for this guano.

b

You and me both, buddy. No worries, though I think I may've pulled something that last go-round...time to go lie down for awhile.

-TL

 

[Tyrone Hamilton]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

^^ Ok, now you're just showing off...

 

[Setting Sun]

Re: 420 Cannasumer Reports Competition - GrowLEDHydro 300w LED vs. 400w HID

Thanks very much SS, you know my methods. Sometimes, it's not just madness, I swear!

you're very welcome, TL.

I like your video updates also, a good addition to your normal comprehensive journaling. You've got those girls all a-flutter (did you take off your shirt or something?) Nice to see some Moving Pictures (through The Camera Eye).

<cue Rush music>

A modern-day warrior mean mean stride
Today's Tom Sawyer PPP pride

Though your mind is not For Rent, I don't put you down as arrogant, either...

----

thank you, there will be more videos because there's things you just can't get across well with static images.

As to your HPS deficiencies, those are rather interesting. Coco's not the best buffering agent - much less like soil than pure (liquid) hydro. (Soil can be good when prepared properly, but sometimes I think even the Doc's faith in soil's capacity to buffer sometimes outstrips its actual ability to do so.) RO and CalMag will definitely help. It can be inconvenient to keep mixing, but at least it gives one a known quantity from which to build a solid nutrient profile upon. As most cooks know, you can always add more - but you can't take away. (Like Prego: 'It's in there!')

(Ok, now that's making me hungry for my house-wide famous spaghetti sauce. Let's see: ground beef, tomatoes, tomato paste, fresh basil, parsley, yellow onions, roasted minced garlic, green peppers, oregano, olive oil, balsamic vinegar, dash of salt n' pepper, pinch o' red pepper (secret ingredient!), corn starch, a little old vine zinfandel...mmmmm!...)


Where was I? Oh, yes...deficiencies, and buffering. Here's what I think, and this is just idle speculation, haven't bothered looking up any cites for this one. I'll leave that to other folks. YMMV...

Your plants had several days under MH or LED with which to become somewhat accustomed to the light after you transplanted (with the existing root system still suspended in the good, washed coco), and then your issues started showing up a week+ later.

Here's the SPD (Spectral Power Distribution) for a typical Sylvania MetalArc bulb:

Apart from a low band in the far-blue/violet range and that one smaller spike around 470 nm, overall distribution is kinda choppy and haphazard, and not as much blue as one might think. A lot more in the greens and yellow, actually. And the intensity isn't too bad from that far away - and you've got a nice secondary barrier (tempered glass lens) in the way, too.

The LED, in contrast, has nearly 30% of its total output in the blue range. And it's a pretty high density overall, too. (More than I'd use, definitely)

My guess is that all the extra blue in the LED (both in %, and higher intensity) is kicking the plants into 'create sunscreen' mode big-time, esp. the first couple of weeks. You see what runts this light creates of (the tops of) buds even 12-14" away. Well, all that ('sunscreen') stuff is basically antioxidants, like you'd get from raspberries, grapes, acai, red wine, green tea, and the like. Those work pretty much the same way in plants as they do in humans - protect us from things that're bad for us.

In effect, the lopsided spectrum in that light is (purely concidentally) also making the plant create some of its own buffering agents, which are somewhat combating things like the excess salinity (and high ion environments resulting from over-nuting or alkalinity, etc.).

Something that's not needed in a healthy plant environment (and actually stunts production somewhat), but one that just happens to reduce some of the deleterious effects when it's not.
-----

I guess plants must like red wine, too. I also find that when some red wine's administered to the gardener, the plants seem happier, also...

That also means that one could still have mild-to-moderate issues in the substrate, and not know it - i.e. which might not even show up much in the plants under (this particular) LED - if it weren't for the canary in the coalmine (HID). Those issues would still have an effect, though, definitely.

Not to get all Eastern or anything, but imbalances always manifest in the energy system before becoming evident on the physical realm. All growers (hydro especially) know this once they start measuring TDS/EC/ppm/pH. Once you start to see it in the plant, it's already been going on in some fashion for a period of time. You just see it faster in hydro, usually.

I knew I was wrong when I said in my last update that "the LED plants are giving me less trouble."

What I should have said was, "the LED plants are making me look good", lol


Your theory resonates and makes sense to me. The LED plants are merely masking the problem better.

Another reason why I'd keep rinsing your pots for awhile (still some excess salt, probably, outside of any separate issues from using tap). Any advantage one side or the other has in veg will translate into flowering as well. (Race might be a few kilometers, but a 100m head start still makes a difference...)
-----

I agree and flushed all of them thoroughly again last night. The HID plants responded and greened-up almost immediately.

Anyway, that's my theory, and I'm stickin' to it! :rolleyes3 (for now)

seems very reasonable and feasible to me, thanks!

Have a good trip Sun

,

thank you, my friend