400w MH in a Raptor 6" hood?

[DRM Ranch]

I'm looking to veg 2 plants under the 400w MH and Raptor hood combo for 70 days in a 4'x4' area.

The hood will be air cooled in hopes to allow close to canopy placement.

I'm not worried about the cost of the hood if its not going to negatively impact the growth of the plants. I may use the hoods later for higher output lights.

My question is simply this, will the Raptor hood negatively impact the growth of my plants when using a 400w MH bulb? Assuming all other factors are good to go.

Thanks for any input,
DRM Ranch

 

[iwltfum]

I think you would have better reflection if you used a smaller hood with that size light, but the directional light is what's most important, so, other than the fact that it's going to look ridiculous, it's probably not going to hurt anything. Don't expect to get the entire footprint that you would with a 1000w though.

 

[DRM Ranch]

I need to optimally light a 4'x4' area with as close to 400w as is possible, I have considered dual bulb fixtures using 2x 250w MH bulbs.

If reflected light will contribute less in the Raptor fixture than another fixture it seems logical that the plants will take a hit to growth performance.

I have not seen fixture PAR tests using 400w bulbs, admittedly I may not have looked hard enough for such tests.

DRM Ranch

 

[Weaselcracker]

Maybe use a 1000 watt bulb? I regularly use the largest bulb size with my dimmable ballasts, sometimes dimmed down. I haven't been convinced enough of any drawbacks worth doing it differently. Not that I would be dimming 1000 down to 400 in my case. In my understanding the 1000 watt bulb would use, and put out roughly 400 watts of light though quite not as efficiently as a 400w bulb. Possibly reduced bulb life.

 

[iwltfum]

I need to optimally light a 4'x4' area with as close to 400w as is possible, I have considered dual bulb fixtures using 2x 250w MH bulbs.

If reflected light will contribute less in the Raptor fixture than another fixture it seems logical that the plants will take a hit to growth performance.

I have not seen fixture PAR tests using 400w bulbs, admittedly I may not have looked hard enough for such tests.

DRM Ranch

I doubt a 400w would give you a full 4x4 foot print (with the proper lighting at the edges) if you have it in a raptor hood. I would go with two 250w bulbs in small hoods (1ftx2ft) if you don't have any more wiggle room in terms of wattage. If you hung them up side by side (instead of in line) then you would probably have the proper reflection for a 4x4 footprint. Even with the proper reflection, 400-500w will not produce as much (per sqft of canopy) as a 1000w covering the same footprint would.

 

[Weaselcracker]

True. My reflectors are a little small, but I can barely make 4x4 areas work with 600 watts. Definitely looks dim at the edges. There no free lunch and the buds that don't get as much light aren't as good.

 

[DRM Ranch]

I'm not looking to flower under this light, just veg the two plants for 70 days.

Capn Style is the general plan I'm going with on my grow, he detailed out using a 400W MH for veg, I wanted to go that route on my first grow in hopes of limiting any new grower failures.

However he has since left this sight and is to the best of my knowledge not exactly saying what hoods he used, I may have missed that. I do believe he is suggesting a 600w MH now.

I'm planning to fund 210 days of growing plus full dry and cure prior to the first clone being taken, so to some extent yes I am worried about the cost of any additional items or electric use beyond what I know will make this a total success.

That said two 250w lights, ballasts, small hoods, extra ducting, light hangers, are more expensive than moving up to a single 600w MH over the period of time I expect a real useable harvest to happen.

DRM Ranch

 

[Weaselcracker]

Oh I see- just for veg. What do you plan on ending up with for flowering? Like what size area of flowering plants? I veg with a dimmable 300-600mh. The settings vary often. Sometimes Im running out of space and the flower room is full so I have it set at 300. Other times at 600.
I flower perpetually with two 600-1000 hps (I usually keep the hps set at 600). I flower 4 plants per light. A 400 watt mh for veg would grow enough in 70 days to supply one of the 4x4 flowering areas. Usually I veg longer- like 90 days, but I'm usually vegging slower than I could because- I'm just not the kind of person who is in a hurry, and -vegging in a 3.5 x 3.5 foot area with the 300-600 mh is more than enough to serve my flowering room. I know I could be growing much faster in veg if I wanted to, but don't have the need.
I'm growing in Promix at the moment. Growing Cap'n style you could grow twice as fast as I am under good conditions.
I hope this rather vague info helps

 

[DRM Ranch]

Oh I see- just for veg. What do you plan on ending up with for flowering? Like what size area of flowering plants? I veg with a dimmable 300-600mh. The settings vary often. Sometimes Im running out of space and the flower room is full so I have it set at 300. Other times at 600.
I flower perpetually with two 600-1000 hps (I usually keep the hps set at 600). I flower 4 plants per light. A 400 watt mh for veg would grow enough in 70 days to supply one of the 4x4 flowering areas. Usually I veg longer- like 90 days, but I'm usually vegging slower than I could because- I'm just not the kind of person who is in a hurry, and -vegging in a 3.5 x 3.5 foot area with the 300-600 mh is more than enough to serve my flowering room. I know I could be growing much faster in veg if I wanted to, but don't have the need.
I'm growing in Promix at the moment. Growing Cap'n style you could grow twice as fast as I am under good conditions.
I hope this rather vague info helps

My veg time of 70 days is not including clone time and veg time under a T5 HO, I've set aside a 35 day block for that too. So 105 days total time prior to flowering is the current plan.

I plan to flower in a 4'x8' area with two plants under two 600w HPS, one in and one out every 35 days allowing 70 days total flower time.

Fixture cooling will be used and the insulated cabinets will have plenty of humidity and temperature regulated air exchange. I want to do this right the first time out, the last thing I want is to fail with thousands upon thousands spent. I certainly don't want to fail because I went el-cheap-o on some critical aspect of the whole thing.

 

[Weaselcracker]

It sounds workable to me, as far as a 400w being able to supply the flowering plants for two 600s. I realize this wasn't the original question though and actually I don't even know what a raptor hood is, lol. Almost all my issues have been somehow learning curve related, and not really equipment related. I don't think I would be growing better herb with better equipment - not till I get good enough at dialing in all the fundamentals. Apparently I'm a slow learner. I decided about five years ago that I was going to try and get the most out of the lights I mentioned, before doing any major changes or upgrades. Looks like I'll be another five years at least.
Oh yeah, the point. I dont think the hood can make much difference. No idea of your growing skill level-but that's probably the key. Good luck!
Ps. One thought on the hoods.

The hood will be air cooled in hopes to allow close to canopy placement.

I have crappy little non-cooled ones. With cooled hoods I could move the lights closer in theory. However, in reality, the angle of spread/ light reflection means that to cover the 4x4 area, I have to raise them up a certain distance anyway. I couldn't move them closer and still have the plants on the edges receiving much light. You'll probably find the same thing if you're trying to cover a 4x4 area with a 400. I highly doubt you'd be able to get it nearly close enough to be too hot, while covering that area. Hence no need for air cooled hood.

 

[DRM Ranch]

It sounds workable to me, as far as a 400w being able to supply the flowering plants for two 600s. I realize this wasn't the original question though and actually I don't even know what a raptor hood is, lol. Almost all my issues have been somehow learning curve related, and not really equipment related. I don't think I would be growing better herb with better equipment - not till I get good enough at dialing in all the fundamentals. Apparently I'm a slow learner. I decided about five years ago that I was going to try and get the most out of the lights I mentioned, before doing any major changes or upgrades. Looks like I'll be another five years at least.
Oh yeah, the point. I dont think the hood can make much difference. No idea of your growing skill level-but that's probably the key. Good luck!
Ps. One thought on the hoods.

I have crappy little non-cooled ones. With cooled hoods I could move the lights closer in theory. However, in reality, the angle of spread/ light reflection means that to cover the 4x4 area, I have to raise them up a certain distance anyway. I couldn't move them closer and still have the plants on the edges receiving much light. You'll probably find the same thing if you're trying to cover a 4x4 area with a 400. I highly doubt you'd be able to get it nearly close enough to be too hot, while covering that area. Hence no need for air cooled hood.

I am a novice grower at best, however I have access to a veteran grower that can help me through any issues in the growing department I may run into.

My equipment selection is based on the original recommendation of "The Capn", who suggested the 400w 600w mix.

I'm good at following instructions, and his instructions were very clear and to the best of my understanding at the time concise, however I'm feeling a bit at a loss as I look deeper into the details.

I am not interested in failing, so I find myself looking to fill in the gaps of information as I get closer to getting my first grow under my belt.

I believe the major attraction I found in growing Cap'n Style was the potential of producing a pound of dried bud from a single plant. That would be perfect for my plant limits and budget. I'm not sure the increased cost of a 600w veg and 1000w flower (a proportional bump up in light size) is going to result in a similar increase in production. If I thought such would be the case I would likely jump all over that.

To put it into prospective a 400w 600w single plant run would cost me $491.40 to run the lights, the 600w 1000w light combo would run $769.86, that's a difference of $278.46. If both produced a pound I'd much rather go with the lower cost option, and I somehow doubt I'll be pulling 25oz out of the more expensive option, even if I were able to pull such a harvest, I can only have a pound on hand. Ahh the wonderful world of legalities.

Granted that is an overly simplified representation, but it does demonstrate my desire to stay within a budget and my legal limits in the long term.

The Raptor is a 38.6"x29.5" reflector hood; big by any stretch of the imagination I know. I may need to buy a PAR meter.

DRM Ranch

 

[Weaselcracker]

Ha ha. Oh I see now why someone said it would look ridiculous.

 

[Graytail]

I spent a lot of time, myself, looking into hoods and HID bulb sizes and brands, etc.

Unless you're going to have a heat issue, I really don't think hoods are cost-effective - that is, not for the early grows - add a great hood later if you still think it's a great idea. If heat is an issue, then a cheap tube is a really good value. That said, I think getting the raptor now would be perfectly alright. With two plants under a single bulb, you're gonna want spread. And when they go to bloom, you move the hood to the 600 watt hps. By then, you've decided what you really want for veg. Two 250s would be better, one over each plant, but that's significantly more expensive, less efficient and hotter. I'm running a 250 MH in veg along with a 190W blue/while LED from Par-Force and some CFLs in reflectors. The 250 is a little hot, but I really like the way it performs over one vegging pot.

As far as the 400/600 vs 600/1000, I can tell you that a pound is a perfectly reasonable goal for a 4x4 under a 600W hps. I did it myself repeatedly. I ran 6 plants in 6 gallon square pots. A 600W hps is quite a bit more efficient than the other sizes, especially when you run an Ushio or one of the other better bulbs.

I found a fairly useful set of 400W PAR tests, including HPS and the 315W CMH, along with some equivalent LED panels.

I also ran across a reference to the average PAR in a 4x4 at 24 inches for a 600W HPS with an Ushio in a vertical reflector ... 700 umols ... a rather startling number.

 

[DRM Ranch]

I spent a lot of time, myself, looking into hoods and HID bulb sizes and brands, etc.

Unless you're going to have a heat issue, I really don't think hoods are cost-effective - that is, not for the early grows - add a great hood later if you still think it's a great idea. If heat is an issue, then a cheap tube is a really good value. That said, I think getting the raptor now would be perfectly alright. With two plants under a single bulb, you're gonna want spread. And when they go to bloom, you move the hood to the 600 watt hps. By then, you've decided what you really want for veg. Two 250s would be better, one over each plant, but that's significantly more expensive, less efficient and hotter. I'm running a 250 MH in veg along with a 190W blue/while LED from Par-Force and some CFLs in reflectors. The 250 is a little hot, but I really like the way it performs over one vegging pot.

As far as the 400/600 vs 600/1000, I can tell you that a pound is a perfectly reasonable goal for a 4x4 under a 600W hps. I did it myself repeatedly. I ran 6 plants in 6 gallon square pots. A 600W hps is quite a bit more efficient than the other sizes, especially when you run an Ushio or one of the other better bulbs.

I found a fairly useful set of 400W PAR tests, including HPS and the 315W CMH, along with some equivalent LED panels.

I also ran across a reference to the average PAR in a 4x4 at 24 inches for a 600W HPS with an Ushio in a vertical reflector ... 700 umols ... a rather startling number.

Thank you for your reply.

I can't run more than 6 plants at a time or have more than a pound of finished bud at any one time and remain legal so ... lots of plants under a single light is out of the question.

I believe it is possible to produce a pound a month in a perpetual grow with just 5 plants, maybe 6.

I do think temperature is going to be an issue for me, more to the point I think the cost of keeping the temperature in check is going to be an issue. I want to limit the month to month bills more than I want to save money on equipment that will last.

To that end I think that hoods with some measure of cooling capability are a good investment, the offset in cooling costs for the grow area it would seem could make up for the cost of better hoods in a grow or two. I'm not 100% sure on this just yet, still AC is a costly aspect of growing here and I'd like to ease the monthly impact.