420 Magazine's Official Girl Scout Cookies Comparative Grow By Emilya

[BakedARea]

That is a phenomenal canopy Em! #canopygoals

Your growth is top notch. I'm ahead of you in time but far behind in growth. I know there are lots of variables we could discuss about the differences but a key take away for me is soil quality and watering. Thanks for being here on this and always helping whether you know it or not. Blessings!

 

[Emilya Green]

That is a phenomenal canopy Em! #canopygoals

Your growth is top notch. I'm ahead of you in time but far behind in growth. I know there are lots of variables we could discuss about the differences but a key take away for me is soil quality and watering. Thanks for being here on this and always helping whether you know it or not. Blessings!

Thank you Baked... it really is fascinating watching all these comparison grows using the same genetics and being able to compare our individual methods.

A couple of you have been talking about yellow leaf tips and what they mean and whether this is indicating that the plants are being burned. The truth is that it can mean different things in different situations. You can see in many of my pictures so far in this journal that my plants are also giving this indicator now and again, and if you watch carefully, it comes and goes. Since this is an organic grow, the plants and the microbes are supposed to be regulating all of this, and not over feeding the plants, even though gobs of nutrients are built into my soil, supersoil on the bottom, and in the incoming Geoflora every two weeks. I have noticed that every organically grown plant I have ever grown, has exhibited this same light tip coloration at various times in the grow. Can an organically grown plant actually burn itself? Is this even a burn since sometimes it comes and goes? Is it a burn when the tip actually goes necrotic?

I have a friend, an old schoolmate actually, who now is an AG professor at a major university, and whom I have been consulting with regarding organic gardening for almost a decade. I went to him to ask that question... can organically grown plants be burned by excessive baked in nutrients and is this what we are seeing?

He explained that there is a process inside the plant that sends signals down to the microbes as to what food is needed, or not needed, through secretions from the roots. These exudates not only help feed the microbes, but they also are the means to communicate to the microbes when the plant has had enough or that it needs something else. When the plant signals that it has no more need for a particular macro nutrient, since the leaves are a mirror image of what is happening at the roots, we can also see this signal in the tips of the leaves. It is oftentimes a signal that the plant is doing fine, and has at least for now, gotten everything it wants and is happy.

A tip burn is not always an actual burn. There is an adage in the pot growing world that if you are not at least burning the tips, you aren't trying hard enough. I would say to carefully examine the "burn" in context... is it a coloration change or an actual dying of the tip? Is yours an organic grow, relying on microbe to root communication, or a synthetic grow where you are throwing readily available nutrient at your plants whether they want them or not? A tip burn there might be an actual burn, telling you to back down on the nutes... the symptom has to be read in context as to the type of grow you are doing. Sometimes an apparent severe tip "burn" is actually a potassium deficiency or a magnesium deficiency when it only happens first to the lower fans. Every "burn" must be read in context for it to make any sense... there is no one "right" answer.

In an organic grow there is not usually an actual burn, just a color change. The meaning of this could very well be exactly the opposite as to what you believe it is. It is all about context, and figuring out the real cause of the indicator you are seeing.

 

[BakedARea]

Can an organically grown plant actually burn itself?

This is exactly what had me baffled. I thought this question and could not figure out why it is happening.

Is this even a burn since sometimes it comes and goes?

Is it a burn when the tip actually goes necrotic?

Great point! I didn't even take that into account that none of these "burnt" tips weren't actually dying.

Haaa haaa...again... @420 We need a head slap emoji for duh moments like Em just made me experience. I've had a lot of those moments on this site. Only way I get better though!

He explained that there is a process inside the plant that sends signals down to the microbes as to what food is needed, or not needed, through secretions from the roots.

That makes total sense to me. With the vast amounts of symbiotic relationship in nature, why wouldn't it work that way?! Another reason to love living organic soil.

A tip burn is not always an actual burn. There is an adage in the pot growing world that if you are not at least burning the tips, you aren't trying hard enough.

Love this!

In an organic grow there is not usually an actual burn, just a color change. The meaning of this could very well be exactly the opposite as to what you believe it is. It is all about context, and figuring out the real cause of the indicator you are seeing.

Thank you for the wisdom as always! I'm going to watch those tips more closely and take some notes about what I'm seeing. Something else I learned by reading your response is I could still be more detailed about my observations, good or bad, and make quick notes about them.

 

[Emilya Green]

It is 4:20! Happy Day everyone!

 

[Emilya Green]

Veg, Day 32
3 days until scheduled feeding

The girls didn't need a lot today other than a little bit of rotating in place. They could have been watered today, but again I am going to choose to go long and wait to water until tomorrow, after uppotting. They will also be fed before watering the new 3 gallon containers to runoff so as to merge the soil regions together, and I now know that feeding here, 2 days before the scheduled time would be more appropriate than waiting 5 -7 days until the next full watering.

The crew has been notified and all are going to be able to assemble here for the uppotting party tomorrow evening. I don't know yet how I am going to arrange 11 of these larger containers yet, but it will involve both veg rooms and probably my MarsHydro SP-3000, perfect for another large veg footprint. Then I will do my best to equalize the PAR in both rooms so as to keep the grow even.

Tonight, the first thing I did was snap a picture of the entire table from a little above canopy height, so you can easily see where dominance is being asserted. I am just waiting for all these points that are popping up above the average height to be able to be chopped, and then off with its head, putting dominance up in the air yet again. Here I have pointed out some of the points I have my eye on, just waiting for the growth head to rise up far enough that it can be chopped.

The plants are widening out as I do this, self cleaning out the center for maximum air flow and access to the light. These plants know what to do and with the help of perfect nutrition and a myco charged root system, they are doing it. In this picture I have assigned colors to each of the branches rising up to the top.

The 4 main nodes will have sent up to the top 2 growth tips each, resulting in 8 bud sites, and by the time this has happened, the first cut node at the top will have doubled and each of those will have been topped again, resulting in an intermediate stage of 10 active bud sites in about a month's time. Then, over the next couple of weeks, each of those will be topped again, and while all that happens, some of them will get chopped a third time. Each time we chop, we double the nodes on that branch, and by the end of all this, we should have around 30 bud sites to take into bloom, 32 typically if we rotate the plants daily and get even 360° growth. Uppotting finally to 7 gallon containers, these plants are going to be monsters.

 

[BakedARea]

whoa! I may need top mine a few extra times more than I anticipated.

 

[KanaGirl]

Love your grow journals @Emilya - they are so wonderfully detailed

One thing I'm a bit confused by is the topping method you're using this grow. In your first post, you indicate that you would be using Uncle Ben's topping method (top above 2nd node, 4 mains); however, it appears you've gone a different route? Can you clarify the topping method you've decided to use this grow and why you decided to change it from what you originally intended??

Also, I reached out to geoflora regarding using their nutes in coco/perlite, which they indicate will work fine. I realize you don't grow in coco, but do you see any issues that might be encountered using in coco? They mentioned possibly needing to supplement cal/mag and also encouraged allowing the coco dry backs in between feedings.

I have done a fully organic grow in coco previously using Dr. Earth dry amendments, feeding the substrate similar to a soil grow. The plants did excellent in veg, and while the grow finished fine, I had serious nutrient deficiencies in flower - I did add microbes and had to supplement with teas to get them thru. I'm thinking about adding some EWC to the coco this time and possibly adding a mineral kit from build-a-soil as well.

One last thing, I've read thru your entire megacrop grow - and by the end of it, I was 100% sold on trying Megacrop on my next run, but the geoflora looks so easy, and I do like that it's organic. Do you still like the megacrop nutes??
Thanks for all the time and energy you put into sharing your grow journals with us! I have learned so much

 

[Emilya Green]

Love your grow journals @Emilya - they are so wonderfully detailed

One thing I'm a bit confused by is the topping method you're using this grow. In your first post, you indicate that you would be using Uncle Ben's topping method (top above 2nd node, 4 mains); however, it appears you've gone a different route? Can you clarify the topping method you've decided to use this grow and why you decided to change it from what you originally intended??

Also, I reached out to geoflora regarding using their nutes in coco/perlite, which they indicate will work fine. I realize you don't grow in coco, but do you see any issues that might be encountered using in coco? They mentioned possibly needing to supplement cal/mag and also encouraged allowing the coco dry backs in between feedings.

I have done a fully organic grow in coco previously using Dr. Earth dry amendments, feeding the substrate similar to a soil grow. The plants did excellent in veg, and while the grow finished fine, I had serious nutrient deficiencies in flower - I did add microbes and had to supplement with teas to get them thru. I'm thinking about adding some EWC to the coco this time and possibly adding a mineral kit from build-a-soil as well.
Thanks for all the time and energy you put into sharing your grow journals with us! I have learned so much

Hi KanaGirl! Thank you for your kind words, they are very much appreciated. I have never grown in coco, so I have no first hand knowledge, and to take advice from me on this matter would probably not be advised. It has always perplexed me that people go to the time and expense to turn coco into some artificial thing that is almost soil in every aspect other than it isn't soil. Its cool as it can be, and it makes me proud that we can do such things, but I find it much easier to just pick up a bag of Ocean Forest. It's just me, I know.

I think the saying is that no best laid plan survives first contact. I had every intent at first to go with Uncle Ben, but I have been caught again by a sharp eyed reader...

It was somewhere between node 4 and 5. I took my eye off of the ball. I don't know what it was, a busy weekend probably, but before I knew it, I was looking at node 7 popping up in front of me and I hadn't yet topped anyone. I'm sorry, but I can chop down from 5 to 2 or 3 all day long, but from 7 all the way down to an Uncle Ben seemed like a crime... I couldn't do it. Could you?

So plan B came out of the battle plan guidebook, an old favorite, the whack-a-mole, off with their heads, anti-dominance - leadership building / PTSD therapy method of training, or as it is called in some circles, flying by the seat of our pants.

Good luck in your grow!
Emmie

 

[Emilya Green]

One last thing, I've read thru your entire megacrop grow - and by the end of it, I was 100% sold on trying Megacrop on my next run, but the geoflora looks so easy, and I do like that it's organic. Do you still like the megacrop nutes??

almost missed this edit! No, I no longer like the megacrop. Their system forces a grower to quickly become an expert in recognizing (and responding correctly to) several key deficiencies and lockouts that can and will occur if your megacrop (easy, because it's one part) is slightly out of adjustment, and to do this by simply looking at the plant and its color. Multiply your possible problems many fold if you also use their supplements. I consider this system hard to use given the available information on their website, and not at all suited to novice to mid level experienced gardeners. I have a gallon jar of the stuff sitting here that I may never use.

 

[KanaGirl]

Thanks Emmie! I assumed that was why you went a different route for topping, but wanted to confirm!

I think the MAIN reason I like working with coco is that it's light, doesn't have any bugs in it, and has tons of aeration.
I've only done 4 grows so far: the first was DWC (nearly 15 years ago). The last 3 were done in the past year and a half and all in coco/perlite. 1st coco grow was organic dry amendments and supplemental teas; 2nd coco grow kind of a middle of the road between organics/synthetics using Botanicare line with organic AACT. 3rd coco grow was GH and fully hydroponic style grow with high frequency fertigation.

All three coco grows turned out fine - almost identical yields from 4 plants (just under a pound). However, night and day difference between the fully organic/partial organic, and fully chem nutrients when it came to terpenes, smell/taste. The GH grow had almost NO SMELL all the way thru the grow. After low/slow cool dry and proper cure, some terpenes came back, but nothing like the other 2 grows.

I also was not prepared for the rapid and massive growth that I'd get employing the fully hydro style grow with chem nutes. It caught me completely off guard and I was battling to keep the plants contained in my tent once I hit the stretch. I literally had to chop them in half to finish off, stressed them like crazy and one must have hermied because I ended up with seeds in my buds at the end

SO... with all of that said, I love working with coco, but I guess I might just have to suck it up and try a soil grow. I truly HATED working with a reservoir and having to clean it out once or twice a week, and the salt build up was just gross!
The most pleasurable grow was my first one using the dry organic amendments, so I'd love to go back to that. I just need to find a way to get thru flower without deficiencies if I stick with coco.

I have learned a lot throughout each grow, especially learning to "read" the plants better, so I believe I will be more prepared to deal with any deficiencies as they crop up next run.

Thank you also for your advice about megacrop. I was somewhat leery to try that nute, as so many people seem to have issues with it creating lockouts. Definitely something I'd like to try at some point in the future, but need a few more grows under my belt before I jump in.

BTW, when will your book be available for purchase?? Thanks again Emmie

 

[6thsense]

Good afternoon @Emilya ! Love this journal . I have a long winded question if you don't mind . I believe I read in one of your journals that when you harvest you hang the bud for a few days then put in bags and then at 70% rh you jar up . I harvested one of my plants she hung for 4 1/2 days and I jarred her up this morning. When I got home from work the rh in the jars was at 73- 75% obviously too wet still. I removed the bud from the jars I now have them in paper bags in my fridge. My longwinded question is what now ? What am I looking for so I dont ruin this harvest? Ive never used paper bags before . Thanks for taking the time to read this

 

[Azimuth]

While you wait for Emilya, here's the thread to give you some background

DrZiggy's Low And Slow Drying: Maximizing Your Harvest

Since beginning this thread we've had a member show up who'd spent the years since 1993 refining this very process. He's already worked out what we were trying to discover - the most favorable atmospheric conditions, how to adjust humidity levels when it's time to jar it up, and for that matter...

www.420magazine.com

 

[6thsense]

While you wait for Emilya, here's the thread to give you some background

DrZiggy's Low And Slow Drying: Maximizing Your Harvest

Since beginning this thread we've had a member show up who'd spent the years since 1993 refining this very process. He's already worked out what we were trying to discover - the most favorable atmospheric conditions, how to adjust humidity levels when it's time to jar it up, and for that matter...

www.420magazine.com

Thank you sir/ma'am much appreciated

 

[Azimuth]

Thank you sir/ma'am much appreciated

That's Mr. Sir, to you...

My bet is Emilya will respond before you get too far in, but there's a jump link to get you right to the good stuff that you might want to start with. You can always go back through for all the back and forth, but right now you need the answers, and I think it will help.

Azi

 

[Emilya Green]

Good afternoon @Emilya ! Love this journal . I have a long winded question if you don't mind . I believe I read in one of your journals that when you harvest you hang the bud for a few days then put in bags and then at 70% rh you jar up . I harvested one of my plants she hung for 4 1/2 days and I jarred her up this morning. When I got home from work the rh in the jars was at 73- 75% obviously too wet still. I removed the bud from the jars I now have them in paper bags in my fridge. My longwinded question is what now ? What am I looking for so I dont ruin this harvest? Ive never used paper bags before . Thanks for taking the time to read this

Hi @6thsense! You probably already have a good idea what I am going to say given your extra sensory talents, but here goes.

First, Ziggy's low and slow method is a different thing... the old fashioned method that I am using has nothing to do with a refrigerator.

When my buds are still too wet to jar, which means anywhere over 66%, they still need to dry a bit. One could simply throw them out on a tray and put them under a ceiling fan for a couple of hours, and then re-jar to see where you are at... rinse and repeat as necessary. That is the fast way.

Instead of putting them on a tray in the open air, I put them in a paper sack. This is a little more porous than a jar, and some of the moisture can still get out, but some gets saved too.. so the dry in the sack is not quite so fast. The sack gives me a good slow way, using 12 hour windows, to reliably, slowly and safely whittle the moisture down to the 65-66% point, and then I move to jars.

 

[6thsense]

Hi @6thsense! You probably already have a good idea what I am going to say given your extra sensory talents, but here goes.

First, Ziggy's low and slow method is a different thing... the old fashioned method that I am using has nothing to do with a refrigerator.

When my buds are still too wet to jar, which means anywhere over 66%, they still need to dry a bit. One could simply throw them out on a tray and put them under a ceiling fan for a couple of hours, and then re-jar to see where you are at... rinse and repeat as necessary. That is the fast way.

Instead of putting them on a tray in the open air, I put them in a paper sack. This is a little more porous than a jar, and some of the moisture can still get out, but some gets saved too.. so the dry in the sack is not quite so fast. The sack gives me a good slow way, using 12 hour windows, to reliably, slowly and safely whittle the moisture down to the 65-66% point, and then I move to jars.

Thanks now i get it . I combined what you were saying with low and slow . I think this bud is effecting my @6thsense . Im just looking to get this bud down to 70% think Im going to try the method that @Rexer posted a while back

 

[Emilya Green]

Also, no need to put the sack of pot in the fridge, potentially smelling up the house. The sack is light proof and can easily go right in the active grow tent and air filtering system... a very big convenience.

 

[6thsense]

That's Mr. Sir, to you...

My bet is Emilya will respond before you get too far in, but there's a jump link to get you right to the good stuff that you might want to start with. You can always go back through for all the back and forth, but right now you need the answers, and I think it will help.

Azi

Iol my bad thanks again

 

[6thsense]

Also, no need to put the sack of pot in the fridge, potentially smelling up the house. The sack is light proof and can easily go right in the active grow tent and air filtering system... a very big convenience.

You're not kidding I opened up fridge to get a capri sun and the smell almost knocked me off my feet

 

[Emilya Green]

You're not kidding I opened up fridge to get a capri sun and the smell almost knocked me off my feet

Thats a deal killer at our house... I have already been banned from the kitchen from doing some of my things, and even though I hate gas grilled BBQ, I had to buy one just so I could do some of the smelly stuff outdoors.