7 weeks - PH? Deficiency? Rootbound?

[Kingsnake235]

hello!

been watching a bit of an issue progress here and not sure how to fix it up properly;

pics are below, I've been feeding with biobizz fish mix and bioheaven at half the min/rec dosage/L
checked the deficiency chart and it looks like maybe potassium and phosphorous deficiencies?

noticed this watering that the pots are still quite heavy and i let them dry out maybe a day or two too long so they are a bit extra wilted ontop of the other issues in the pics; wondering if being root bound could contribute to symptoms? the pot are only around 2 gallons i think.

maybe ph issues? watering with 7.0 and last time i measured (liquid test) run off was 6.5ish but it may have changed since.

more details can be found in my journal in my sig.

potassium deficiency? rootbound?

same plant, zoomed out

ph issues? or phosphorous?

under watered, potassium def? rootboud?

i read about maybe using water from boiling potatoes would work for potassium? could be worth a shot.. but if nutrients are needed, a simple/household solution would be great!

thanks in advance for any insights offered!

 

[Peripatera]

I think it's nitrogen toxicity your plant cannot absorb phosphorus because you have too much nitrogen in soil flush your plant with clean water ph 6.5 to get the nitrogen out.

 

[Kingsnake235]

right, i'd considered that, and it seems to be the easiest fix;thanks for the reply!

 

[Kingsnake235]

so i flushed the 4/6 last night that had effected leaves; realized during that my soil is definitely too dense and i let them dry out too much last time. Gave 'em a good soaking, but I'm not sure whats kosher really. I've read in the past use 2-3X the volume of the pot? but that just seems… aggressive.. i normally only water around 400mL every 4/5 days

anyways, i put probably 2-4 L thru each 2 Gallon pot in stages, first with 1L of very lightly soaped water, to break the surface tension of the dry soil, and then 1-2 more L based on runoff levels with the sink sprayer (i water with straight tap water 7.0pH). I noticed they weren't getting really heavy so i poked some holes down the pot with a clean pencil and tried again, they got nice and heavy then. Feels like there is a discernible mass towards the bottom of the pots, i assume roots collecting and soil compaction, but i tried not to damage anything.

at first when i put them back they looked over watered, the leaves drooped and sagged a bit, but i checked a few hours afterward and the one that had the most yellow leaves had its top leaves stretched way up pointing at the light, i took that as a good sign; so we will see how the next couple days look! Probably gonna flush the last 2 later tonight when the lights come on, just for good measure; flipping to 12/12 in a day or 2.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Well it is not uncommon to get a few lower fan leafs to yellow 'n' die off or show a nutrient def to which may appear either phosphorus or potassium at the mo.

More likely suspect phosphorus but very mild & may suggest increasing nutrient dosage to keep at bay.

Nitrogen toxicity is normally really dark green leafs curling down like rams horns.

Looks like ya got an indica dominate girl these are dark green by nature when compared to sativa also leaf shape gives a clue !

 

[Kingsnake235]

thanks for the input! helps me rest easy!

i was just saying to my wife, they're still about 95% healthy, it doesn't seem like anything too serious but I was hoping to flip them this week at the latest; not sure if that should still be done while showing signs?

i figure lots of house plants get those kinds of symptoms and people just pluck the leaf and water them and they come around, haha.. might be time to pick up a light bloom nutrient tho - i only have biobizz fish mix (4-0-3), bioheaven (1-0.1-0.1), and topmax(0.2-0-0.1) right now.

yeah, some of the leaves are quite dark, but they are all indica as you say (hash plant and black indica) and they aren't curling so much, but of course this morning the 2 tallest ones are curling a bit under the new bulb.. still on 18/6 for now until i decide what to do

edit to add: could these issues be caused by being a bit root bound at this stage? maybe the roots just aren't getting the nutrients from the right parts of the soils because they are busy being tangled at the wall of the pot? considering an up-can before flipping.. thoughts?

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

You going to need Biobizz bloom for flowering as present selection has zero phosphorus which suggest current def, in flowering the girls will use more phosphorus & potassium to support bud growth.

On a side note if ya don't like the price of Bio Heaven, Alg-a-Mic is a cold pressed seaweed micro nutrient feed & works just as well !


Curling or drooping leafs can be a sign of under or over watering which both share the same characteristics or could just be some minor stress from the new bulb & should sort them self's out in a few days or less.

Root balling may stunt over all growth & can cause excessive use of moist/water which may lead to a nutrient build up effecting ambient PH levels of the soil/compost used in some case's but not uncommon to get a PH change in mid to late flowering due to increased feeding etc

On the hand you could pot up into a pot twice that size & allow to settle in for 2 weeks etc before flowering, this will allow for root growth to start & settle to which you should see a slight burst in growth to which may aid in greater yield.

 

[Emilya Green]

I will weigh in on the side of being rootbound. Other than complaining at the bottom about something, these are some healthy and happy looking plants. Do just what that cute little fuzzy duck said... get them in larger pots for 2 weeks before you flip and you will have some monsters on your hands.

 

[Kingsnake235]

thanks for all the input!

Curling or drooping leafs can be a sign of under or over watering which both share the same characteristics or could just be some minor stress from the new bulb & should sort them self's out in a few days or less.

all 4 upright plants have succumb to drooping leaves now, a couple days after flushing; i think one of them may be starting to perk up but its hard to tell..

Root balling… may lead to a nutrient build up effecting ambient PH levels of the soil

of course when i did flush I didn't check the pH of the runoff, *duh* - last time i checked it was around 6.5 (liquid test) but that was a few weeks ago now i think..

On the hand you could pot up..

I have considered transplanting to larger pots, except the time involved in recovery stretches my window out a bit longer than i was hoping for. I can push it if i have to, and it very well may be the best choice at this point; i am wondering tho, if just going to flower now would be detrimental for my plants (i.e., cause them to die for any or all of the above reasons) or could i just go for it with these few issues being worked out?

and yes, i have to get a bloom nutrient asap; luckily the grow shop is just down the road.

Other than complaining at the bottom about something, these are some healthy and happy looking plants.

i notice that the effected leaves are having persistent symptoms, but it doesn't seem to be spreading to higher leaves.. yet. that should be a good sign, right?

thanks for all the info!

 

[Kingsnake235]

a few pics of progression..


top starting to wilt a bit here

3 more drooping

these next 4 are all on the same plant, which has been the most effected so far.

2 leaves on HP-1 the bushiest LST'd plant

and 2 leaves on the other LST plant

definitely thinking more and more about pushing the time and doing it right.. i accept that my soil mix is not ideal so rather than push it and risk losing the lot, i think maybe ill go grab some perlite and at least transfer one so i can take a look at the roots and see whats going on..

 

[Kingsnake235]

this morning show symptoms worsening, with one of the plants showing its leaves edges curling up and twisting in a deformed kinda way..pH? and yellowing on the worst one has increased, while they're still drooping.

now I'm beginning to worry a bit; it seems like flushing might have exacerbated the problems rather than help fix them?

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Ye the droopy leafs are more likely due to the flush it is kind of border line over watering but should sort them self's out once the growing medium drys out a little.

I'm not in to run off measurements doesn't make much sense to me to be honest with soil grows etc but that is just me !

Ye i'm sure that is P - phosphorus def ya real want those bloom nutrients other wise P def will continue quite fast in early to mid flowering... ye i'm sure about that !


Mmm those pots look around 5 liter or 1 gallon plus at a rough eye ball on size, ya more likely get away with em for the rest of grow but due to plant size later on in flowering i would keep a good eye on watering as they are gonna drink more... ye grown plants in smaller pots than that myself but in general i use 6.5 liter or about 1 1/2 gallon air pots & i believe most peeps would use as standard 10 liter or 2 1/2 gallon on average but may go as large as 25 liter / 5 gallon.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

this morning show symptoms worsening, with one of the plants showing its leaves edges curling up and twisting in a deformed kinda way..pH? and yellowing on the worst one has increased, while they're still drooping.

now I'm beginning to worry a bit; it seems like flushing might have exacerbated the problems rather than help fix them?

Well flushing means leaching or removing as much nutrients from the growing medium as poss, hence defs may occur afterwards as ya just removed all the food/nutrients, normally most would apply a half rate feed after flushing to counter react the flush for the time being.

What ya really need is nutrients with P - phosphorus in asap to sort the def out !

 

[Kingsnake235]

hey! thanks for keeping up the info fuzzy duck

my pots are ~2gallon, but they are taller rather than wider, and what I've come to feel now is that this is largely all due to my sub-par soil mix; i should have waited the extra week in the beginning and done it right, but now i think the root issues in the compacted soil are just compounding these issues..

re: nutes, that makes sense yes, of course, flush out all the nutes to avoid lockout but then they're all gone.. I just picked up some 4 gallon pots, more soil and perlite, and I'm gonna hit the grow shop for some biobizz bloom.

i really want to see whats going on inside the pots i have now, the soil feels dry up to my third knuckle but gets very compact and the drooping leaves are still firm as with overwatering, so i think I'm going to take the plunge and sacrifice the time to up-can them like you suggested.. i have the space with the new tent, and i suppose i can push my schedule a week or so if it means doing it right and giving them what they need/want.. it shouldn't take too much to get them settled into only slightly larger pots - they will add about 2-3 inches all the way around my current pots.

in the end id rather spend a bit more time/money to get a good result/education than helplessly watch my girls die haha

 

[Emilya Green]

after reading what you just typed kingsnake and looking again at the overall droopiness of your plants, I have to ask how often you water. How do you determine when it is time to water, your knuckles in the top? When you do water, how much do you give them?

 

[Kingsnake235]

heres the twisty/curly leaves i mentioned; new as of this morning.
the only change in environment is i turned the ballast down to 75%, thinking maybe the change to HPS and dialling up to 100% at the same time might have been a bit much.

 

[Kingsnake235]

after reading what you just typed kingsnake and looking again at the overall droopiness of your plants, I have to ask how often you water. How do you determine when it is time to water, your knuckles in the top? When you do water, how much do you give them?

normally lift method combined with just checking the top (not usually so deep, just an inch or 2), 4-5 days apart with maybe 4-500mL each; the last watering before i flushed is where it started to be questionable, the pots were heavy but still dry and the leaves were starting to droop a bit.. i thought that couldn't be enough water, but they never looked under watered previously, and i always got about 20% runoff, so i didn't think much of it; until i continued reading and figured maybe the waters just running down the side of the pot because the soil is so compacted and the roots are bound? oh and i normally water at the beginning of the light cycle

 

[Emilya Green]

when using the lift method, are they just light, or could you say they were feather light and shocking that they could still be looking happy in such a dry container?

I am strongly suspecting now that your watering method is causing you troubles, and that you may indeed be rootbound, but your method of watering has been building up to be a problem for some time, and has only now really become a problem.

Please read my watering thread by clicking the link below, ( it is a sticky after all ) and then let's continue this conversation.

 

[Kingsnake235]

every time up until that last one i mentioned i was surprised they were still looking alive, which is also the reason i waited 6 days before watering that time.

i am strongly suspecting you are correct, haha..

If you just give a small amount every couple of days, that water will drop right to the bottom of the container. Your roots will follow, and will cluster on the bottom, instead of growing laterally throughout the container, and since they continually sit in the nutrient rich water, the plant sees little need to grow additional roots.

this. i have realized thru the last few weeks that i was watering too fast, but also that i was probably not using enough water, and this quote above illustrates what i imagine is happening in my pots right now.. a root mass toward the bottom of the pot, instead of lateral growth throughout.

They do two things when they see that they need water, they throw out a smell, and they begin to wilt, starting at the bottom, moving up.

mine are just starting to wilt on the bottom now, after starting at the top, i take it this is the reverse situation essentially, with overwatering? - also they have very little scent now, but were smelling quite.. before the last watering now that i think about it..

every time I think that I need to do something to my plants, I wait a bit... and I try to move at the speed that my plants are moving.

I'm feeling this too, i have the things together i MIGHT need but i don't want to act too drastically too quickly and make things worse.

It is imperative to successively up pot your plants through stages so that the root system can roughly take on the same size and shape as the plant in order to get the maximum productivity.

so should i be considering this as a next step?

I hope that this study on containers, watering and pH helps someone who reads it.

thanks!

even tho i have done a ton of reading before starting and continue to every day; it all just makes so much more sense when you can watch it unfold; I'm glad to have a place like this that is so rich in resources and experienced people!

 

[Emilya Green]

so yes, I am suspecting that you were watering too often, not trusting the weed to be ok as the soil dries all the way down to the bottom. Let them dry out all the way from now on, and I think you will have this solved. Also, learn to trust the lift method, because that length of time between waterings should be decreasing each time as the roots get stronger and stronger.

And yes, give them a couple of watering cycles to get used to the new way of doing things, watch for all the leaves to lift upward instead of drooping downward, and very soon be ready to up-pot to a pot at least twice this size. Don't add stress upon stress however, let the watering thing sort out first... then think about transplanting.