Another "Mixing Soil" Question From a Hydro Guy

[TorturedSoul]

I debated whether or not to place this thread in the Organic Soil forum, but am not sure that all ingredients are truly organic (and none of them seem to be certified).

A friend has these ingredients:

Perlite (NOT coarse)
Vermiculite
Compost / Cow Manure (No mention on the bag of what kind of compost or how much cow manure)
Garden Soil ("Better Than Top Soil" "This product is regionally formulated from forest products (derived from one or more of the following: mushroom compost, perlite, sand, composted humus, and pine and/or hardwood bark fines))

When I asked him why he got such questionable items, he replied that he couldn't afford the outrageous price they were selling the ProMix at and so it was either that or Miracle Grow soil.

I guess I understand lol.

I can give him a very small amount of sphagnum peat moss, some wet (left bag open in basement for a few years <WHOOPS!>) granulated charcoal, some epsom salt, and some pellatized lime (and a cheap electric coffee grinder to turn it into powder!).

The epsom salt says: Guaranteed Analysis: total magnesium 9.8% water soluble Mg & total sulfur 12.9% combined sulfur. Derived from Magnesium Sulfate. *I thought it had calcium in it but I was WRONG*

The pellatized lime says: "NUTRALIME is non-toxic and dust-free. It dissolves immediately to reduce soil acid and bring soil pH levels into proper balance." (Huh. I didn't know about the "dissolves instantly" part and always pulverized it in the grinder first.) Guaranteed Analysis: Calcium 21%, Magnesium 12%, Calcium Carbonate Equivalent 97%, TNP 97%, Derived from CaCO3 52.5%, MgCo3 41.76%, As Oxides CaO 29.4%, MgO 19.2%, Binder <2%.

He wants to know if he can make decent MJ soil out of what he bought (and I suppose the things above that I have that he can bum off of me). If so, what ratio should he mix everything up?

He did say that while he was shopping today he saw some small (4 pound or less) bags of blood meal and bone meal that he "could probably buy in two or three weeks."

Guess I'm not the only poor boy around lmao.

From the way he sounded I'm guessing that I would be wasting my breath if I asked him what type of fertillizer he was going to purchase. He'd probably say, "Whatever I can afford - in a few weeks."

Thanks in advance for the help! I'm not really a soil guy (can you tell lol?).

 

[Harry Red]

Is this an indoor or outdoor grow?

Those ingredients are best suited for outdoor. Manure and compost can contain and may attract bugs. I guess if you were using it inside you could crush up some mosquito dunks (BTI) and sprinkle the power across the top before you water. That will at least take care of any fungus gnat larvae.

I'd probably use around 40% top soil, 30% perlite, 20% manure/compost and 10% vermiculite, adding 2 tbls of powdered dolomitic lime per gallon of mix. You could add other supplements if needed but that should get you going.

Imo, one of the better basic mix recipes for indoor is 40% sphagnum peat, 30% worm castings and 30% perlite with 2 tbls of powdered dolomitic lime per gallon of mix.

Very simple and works great.

Of course, as you said, within a couple of weeks he'll need to start adding nutes. You might as well get him PH adjusting everything right from the start, so PH up/down will be needed as well.



Harry

 

[TorturedSoul]

Indoor lol. I guess he can spread the "Compost / Cow Manure" product out on a cookie sheet in the oven, turn it up to 180F, open all the windows, and run.

He's "not into all that pH stuff" lmao.

I hope he manages to get something come harvest time. I was recently lamenting the fact that if I were to try a soil grow that the only ferts I have in the house are african violet fert, Scotts(???) 7-7-7, and Miracle Grow. He said, "But I grew a long time ago with MG and thought it worked real well."

For outdoor he digs a hole, dumps in a bucketful of SLUDGE from the sewer plant, pushes some of the dirt back in the hole, drops the plant in it, and finishes covering the roots. He says the plants will grow a little bit, then look like they've been attacked - he assumes that's when the roots first hit the sludge - and then "take off like rockets."

I dunno, he grew the past three years. First year, someone stole his bud before he could harvest. Second year, mold got them. Third year, he had the buds drying in an UNLOCKED (yeah, we live in the country, but... <DOH!>) shed on his property and came home one day to find them gone. So I have yet to actually <GAG> sample bud grown that way.

I REALLY hope he doesn't intend to dump sewer-plant sludge into buckets that he is using inside lmfao.

I don't really know. I'm afraid to ask.

 

[TorturedSoul]

BTW I used to mix 1/4 perlite, 1/4 vermiculite, 1/4 sphagnum peat, and 1/4 "harmless inert(?) cactus soil" and add a little less than one tbsp per gallon of powdered lime (powdered it myself lol) and throw in not quite a tbsp of the epsom salts when I didn't have anything else to stick rooted clones in and had WAY too many of them that survived in spite of the way I rooted them.

Was that a bad thing? I figured they would stand being ignored a little longer than if I had just stuck them in 50:50 perlite:vermiculite - although that was easier to wash off the roots if/when I decided to stick them in geolite balls for hydro.

 

[Harry Red]

BTW I used to mix 1/4 perlite, 1/4 vermiculite, 1/4 sphagnum peat, and 1/4 "harmless inert(?) cactus soil" and add a little less than one tbsp per gallon of powdered lime (powdered it myself lol) and throw in not quite a tbsp of the epsom salts

That sounds like a mix that would grow MJ. I'm not a hyrdo guy but I'd imagine getting all that off the roots would be kind of a pain.

The reason I don't use vermiculite is because the peat holds water and I have to add perlite for drainage so adding back in vermiculite seems redundant. I guess replacing some of the peat with vermiculite would slow down the medium going acidic, as peat will tend to do over time. The dolomite buffers that anyway so it's one less ingredient I have to deal with. I try to keep things as simple and low cost as possible.

Like your friend, I'm an outdoor grower who has moved inside and it's been kinda hard to break out of the "outdoor" mindset. I think you need to impress upon him the importance of controlling PH when growing in a pot. At the least, he should have some idea of the PH of the H2O and how the nutes react. FF GB & TB will drop PH 7.0 H2O to below 5 and Age Old grow/bloom can raise it to over 8 so he needs some kind of game plan. Assuming his H2O is around 7.0, he could use PH neutral nutes and may be able to get by, but who knows what that medium might do over time.

When all his fans start dropping after 5-6 weeks into flowering, he will wish he had paid more attention to the PH.



Harry

 

[TorturedSoul]

That sounds like a mix that would grow MJ. I'm not a hyrdo guy but I'd imagine getting all that off the roots would be kind of a pain.

Kind of, yeah lol. Perlite/vermiculite was much easier, rinse off in the sink and go. 99% was off.

The reason I don't use vermiculite is because the peat holds water and I have to add perlite for drainage so adding back in vermiculite seems redundant. I guess replacing some of the peat with vermiculite would slow down the medium going acidic, as peat will tend to do over time. The dolomite buffers that anyway so it's one less ingredient I have to deal with. I try to keep things as simple and low cost as possible.

I guess sometimes it's a case of "I have these ingredients and this many pots to fill. Looks like I need to use as many of them as possible and hope it pretty much fills them." Not a good strategy but...

Like your friend, I'm an outdoor grower who has moved inside and it's been kinda hard to break out of the "outdoor" mindset. I think you need to impress upon him the importance of controlling PH when growing in a pot. At the least, he should have some idea of the PH of the H2O and how the nutes react. FF GB & TB will drop PH 7.0 H2O to below 5 and Age Old grow/bloom can raise it to over 8 so he needs some kind of game plan. Assuming his H2O is around 7.0, he could use PH neutral nutes and may be able to get by, but who knows what that medium might do over time.

I know what you mean about finding it hard to break out of a particular mindset. I used to do hydro with GH Flora and was lucky in that I used small pots (drink cups with MANY holes drilled into them that were just small enough that they would hold the geolite until the roots demolished the cups) with the roots going from there directly into massively-oxygenated reservoirs, and the mix always seemed to start out close to the end of the range (or REAL close depending on the strength/mix) and gradually creep up. I quickly learned that instead of topping off with "plain" water I could add a bit of the Bloom and it would bring the pH back down and so it would stay in the sweet spot until it was time to change it (and the ex- often dumped it on the vegetable garden).

So I didn't really have to worry about the pH of the medium affecting things as it was pretty much inert. And I for the most part didn't have to mess with pH adjusters for the nutrients either. I got so I could pretty much tell.

Now I am trying to learn this soil thing because people I know ask me questions and they don't seem to want to let it go at, "HtH should I know?"

Measure it going in. Measure it going out. Infer the pH of the medium. Pick a recipe for creating the medium out of the 1,001 available. Figure out what you need to adust your feed to based on your recipe. Keep measuring the runoff so that you can tell when the pH of the medium has changed. Spin around three times at midnight during a new moon while chanting and making the secret sign. Add this to the soil. Add that. Smell it. Feel it. Taste it. Yuck, add something to sweeten it. Realize that when you're all done you can't just rinse the roots and any salt (if you messed up) off the geolite and grab some more cups, that instead you've got to carry 300 lbs of "soil" back out the door without the neighbors wondering why and then carry 300 lbs of FRESH "soil" back in. Get everything the way you think you want it. Do something. Plants look great. Do something else. Plants look great. Go in to do something else again and see the girls looking like they've been assaulted. Try to remember that due to the "soil's" magical ability to buffer things, the problem you are trying to track down isn't something you did five minutes ago. Hope you've figured it out and that you've gotten the antidote figured out because that buffering works in both directions and you won't see results in 30 seconds lol.

Yeah, this stuff is all Greek to me and it's like I'm trying to learn to speak Greek only I've been struck deaf.

<LAUGHING> You know, I've heard and read where people say that newbies should start with soil because "hydro is hard."

I've just come to the conclusion that THAT isn't it.

Newbies should start with soil because if they can manage that, if they can be dropped off in the middle of nowhere with nothing but a Scout manual and a Swiss Army knife and come back two weeks later tanned and 25 pounds heavier & wearing clothes made out of the bear that they killed and ate, if they get to the point where they can do the voodoo dance and successfully get that dead chicken to jump up, sing the blues, and then go stuff and bake itself...

Then they can by that point follow a simple five-step "How To Do Hydro" flowchart even if they are in the basement of a burning building, hooked up to life support, and in a coma.

Or... It seems like it to me lol.

When all his fans start dropping after 5-6 weeks into flowering, he will wish he had paid more attention to the PH.

My luck, he'll blame me for it.