BakedArea 2nd Grow Season 2020: Multiple Strains

[Fredwak]

Hello Baked, Emilya. It never ceases to amaze me just how resilient these weeds are! I just split the main stem down the middle of my White Widow in coco that's only been in the flower tent for a week. I was/am totally bummed about this but I dripped fresh aloe on it and bound it with a pipe cleaner. Two days ago and no wilt or anything today. Good luck! Stay safe and stay stoned

 

[BakedARea]

I just split the main stem down the middle of my White Widow

I would have freaked! I completely forgot that last week I snapped a branch off my Romulan. It is definitely wilting but I'll leave it alone and see what happens. What I should have done is get the scissors, cut it off clean, and try to root it. Lack of experience was the cause of that decision.

 

[BakedARea]

I wanted to share a new toy that came in! I was curious to know what my soil pH was. I did some research and figured out I could just buy an attachment for my Apera pen. This will come in handy for a lot of other plants in my garden (blueberries, blackberries, hydrangeas, etc.). I know that generally speaking, people should not be too concerned with pH when growing in soil. It is another tool to get a better understanding of what's happening and how my feedings and teas affect the pH throughout the season.

I'll be testing the rest of the plants tomorrow.

pH from the tap

 

[Emilya Green]

Despite what the marketing hype on that pen says, this is NOT how to test soil pH. The pH of your soil will be different depending on where you measure at with this probe, depending on how much water is being held in that portion of the soil and what ITS pH was adjusted to.
These reading with this pen are meaningless. It in no way tells you the pH of your soil, which is measured as its BASE pH. The base pH of your soil is the pH that it reverts to when dry, and the pH that its buffers are trying to drift your fluids up to. The only way to accurately measure the base pH is with a representative sample of your soil, in a slurry test in distilled water, in a vacuum. If you are not doing that, you don't know the pH of your soil, and measuring all the plants in your collection unfortunately is a colossal waste of time.
PH is not that hard... simply adjust every fluid that hits your medium with the appropriate pH adjustment and the buffers in the soil will take care of everything for you. If you come in at 6.3 pH in soil, you hit it at the point in the range where the most nutrients are the most mobile, and then the buffers start drifting the pH upward through the usable pH range of 6.2-6.8 pH. It is a beautiful system, and sadly, very much misunderstood... so much so that companies like that one can take advantage by selling you a useless attachment to their meter. At least now you have heard the truth. I leave it to you to verify that what I have said here is true.

 

[BakedARea]

If you come in at 6.3 pH in soil, you hit it at the point in the range where the most nutrients are the most mobile, and then the buffers start drifting the pH upward through the usable pH range of 6.2-6.8 pH. It is a beautiful system, and sadly, very much misunderstood... so much so that companies like that one can take advantage by selling you a useless attachment to their meter. At least now you have heard the truth. I leave it to

Thanks for chiming in as always! Great to read honesty. It is appreciated more than I can express here. You've never steered me in the wrong direction or any others for that matter. You are highly respected by many here for that honesty!

With that said...let's have a friendly debate.
Is it tech in general that you feel is useless or just pH soil pens in general? Do you have the same opinion about the BlueLab Soil pH pen? That seems to be a highly regarded and popular pen with growers. It seems to me that these companies must be able to have some truth to their products. They surely couldn't be selling a completely useless product...right?! If it can be easily discredited and deemed useless, would they not be publicly shamed by now?

In the past I have also done those colored pill tests for my soil. There are also pH soil strips, but I have not tried those. I was thinking about it so that I could compare the results. Those two types of tests require a soil sample that is turned into a slurry in distilled water. I could do the same with this pen as well, I just chose to stick it directly in the dirt. I did find different readings in different spots. It would make sense considering how the water travels the path of least resistance as well as carrying nutrients, minerals, etc into those spots more than others.

It is not completely useless in my opinion because I can still test nutrients or other liquids with this attachment, not just soil. BUT if the testing of the soil is useless, then I guess I don't need it.

I will do some more digging and research to help me formulate a stronger opinion, one way or the other. If it truly ends up being a waste of money, it can easily be sent back!

If you have any articles handy I can look up that discredit these types of devices, please feel free to share it here or PM me.

On a side note, I was thinking about getting a PPM type pen or meter (same as a TDS pen???). Useless or useful for organic soil growers? If I ever dip into hydro or DWC, I imagine those types of tools are a must. But for soil grows? It would be nice to get a brutally honest opinion.

 

[Emilya Green]

Thanks for chiming in as always! Great to read honesty. It is appreciated more than I can express here. You've never steered me in the wrong direction or any others for that matter. You are highly respected by many here for that honesty!

With that said...let's have a friendly debate.
Is it tech in general that you feel is useless or just pH soil pens in general? Do you have the same opinion about the BlueLI ab Soil pH pen? That seems to be a highly regarded and popular pen with growers. It seems to me that these companies must be able to have some truth to their products. They surely couldn't be selling a completely useless product...right?! If it can be easily discredited and deemed useless, would they not be publicly shamed by now?

In the past I have also done those colored pill tests for my soil. There are also pH soil strips, but I have not tried those. I was thinking about it so that I could compare the results. Those two types of tests require a soil sample that is turned into a slurry in distilled water. I could do the same with this pen as well, I just chose to stick it directly in the dirt. I did find different readings in different spots. It would make sense considering how the water travels the path of least resistance as well as carrying nutrients, minerals, etc into those spots more than others.

It is not completely useless in my opinion because I can still test nutrients or other liquids with this attachment, not just soil. BUT if the testing of the soil is useless, then I guess I don't need it.

I will do some more digging and research to help me formulate a stronger opinion, one way or the other. If it truly ends up being a waste of money, it can easily be sent back!

If you have any articles handy I can look up that discredit these types of devices, please feel free to share it here or PM me.

On a side note, I was thinking about getting a PPM type pen or meter (same as a TDS pen???). Useless or useful for organic soil growers? If I ever dip into hydro or DWC, I imagine those types of tools are a must. But for soil grows? It would be niI think that I may not have explained my point well enough.ce to get a brutally honest opinion.

I am afraid that it was I who didn't explain myself well enough above. I am not against technology or pH pens in general, it is just that sticking probes into soil to measure soil pH is not the way it is done, and anything presented to you by that meter with its special attachment, is simply an approximation of the pH in only that area of the container. The reading does not correspond to the base pH of the soil in any way, and frankly, what do you do with this info once you have it? It might be great to know the pH in the lower third of the container on the right side, 3 inches from the side of the container... but what exactly do you gain knowing this? Using the pH pen for measuring the pH of liquids is what it was designed for, measuring the pH in a semi-solid medium like soil is not what it was really designed for.

Regarding ppm/tds pens... in soil, it is meaningless to you what the PPM of your fluids is... all soil measurements are in units per gallon/liter and there is no need to own a PPM meter. The readings aren't actually worthless like trying to measure soil pH with a probe, but it is unnecessary to know this number while you are in soil. In any water based grow method (hydro) your TDS/PPM meter will be an invaluable tool.

And yes, buyer beware, and using PT Barnum's observation that a sucker is born every minute, as a guidepost, equipment manufacturers make and sell useless equipment to those who request it, every day of the year.

I have no articles to cite to you, because every word I utter is my own thought. It is your job to research what I say to determine if I am right... you are my fact checker. I am highly educated and I know quite a bit about this thing that we are doing together here, you and I, and I would't insult you by trying to give you someone else's words to explain my thoughts, observations and ideas.

 

[BakedARea]

** DISCLAIMER: I have not had any coffee yet and I have not yet walked out into my garden. If I make no sense and it sounds like jibberish, then now you know why! **

anything presented to you by that meter with its special attachment, is simply an approximation of the pH in only that area of the container. The reading does not correspond to the base pH of the soil in any way, and frankly, what do you do with this info once you have it? It might be great to know the pH in the lower third of the container on the right side, 3 inches from the side of the container... but what exactly do you gain knowing this?

If I'm able to obtain an average from checking several spots, in my mind it gives me some data. Data that I could use to adjust the pH of any liquids going into the soil to at the very least make an attempt to get the soil closer to its sweet spot. Admittedly, ignorance is certainly at play here for me when it comes to all the intricacies of soil and its potential biology and its affect on the pH. I do believe that soil and the biology within it do truly provide a buffer. But to what extent?! How much of a buffer can soil handle? If my soil is averaging below 5 or maybe above 9, wouldn't you say that something is wrong in those ranges?! Maybe not, I don't know. Again, I don't know how much of a buffer soil can handle. I still have LOTS to learn about soil and I have no problems admitting that. What I gain, is a little glimpse of what's happening in the soil.

It's a control thing I guess since I have to leave it in the hands of the biology to fix my failings...

measuring the pH in a semi-solid medium like soil is not what it was really designed for.

But this attachment is exactly designed for that. They even have other semi-solid meters which are more advanced (and expensive), specifically designed for the food industry. Just so happens that it works for soil too.

Regarding ppm/tds pens... in soil, it is meaningless to you what the PPM of your fluids is

Ok cool! Good to know. Thank you.

In any water based grow method (hydro) your TDS/PPM meter will be an invaluable tool.

Eventually, I wanted to experiment with doing a water based grow. Nothing pressing but I would like to try it. It looks like it will be a pain in the ass and a lot more work though. Not necessarily something I want to add in my life. LOL. I'm busy enough as it is.

equipment manufacturers make and sell useless equipment to those who request it, every day of the year.

Yes, I too believe that. I am not that naive thankfully. What I meant was these instrumention tech companies that make these types of meters and many others. Apera for instance makes equipment that is used for regulated utilities, food industry, etc. They are required to provide performance and calibration certifications of their manufacturing and testing processes. They must maintain a certain level of accuracy and accountability in order to continue selling their equipment, especially to regulated businesses. I find it hard to believe that an instrumentation company like Apera, Hach, Pro-Minent, or others like them would be able to get away with useless equipment for too long before getting violations from the EPA and USDA. Again, that does not mean that this attachment isn't some gimmick but I still find it hard to believe that they wouldn't do proper testing and research before selling it.

Your thoughts on the BlueLab pen? They market much more heavily in the agricultural industry.

I would't insult you by trying to give you someone else's words to explain my thoughts, observations and ideas.

I understand and thank you for that. I think a lot of the fact checking of your statements/opinions will have a lot to do with experience and time. Something which I don't have yet. This is only my second year growing so experience is slowly building. Time is also limited in my life. If I can slow down time when I'm in my garden and bring peace to my soul and mind, then mission accomplished! Maybe this useless tool brings me peace of mind?!

It won't bring me peace if I wasted money though?!

Thanks again Emilya for the knowledge sharing. Respect!

 

[Emilya Green]

What I meant was these instrumention tech companies that make these types of meters and many others. Apera for instance makes equipment that is used for regulated utilities, food industry, etc. They are required to provide performance and calibration certifications of their manufacturing and testing processes. They must maintain a certain level of accuracy and accountability in order to continue selling their equipment, especially to regulated businesses. I find it hard to believe that an instrumentation company like Apera, Hach, Pro-Minent, or others like them would be able to get away with useless equipment for too long before getting violations from the EPA and USDA. Again, that does not mean that this attachment isn't some gimmick but I still find it hard to believe that they wouldn't do proper testing and research before selling it.

Blue Lab is good equipment and used correctly there are few better than them. The problem is in the application. In other industries, measuring other mediums, these meters and special probes definitely have a use and are accurate for what they are doing. Using this special ability in soil however is not accurate, mainly because soil is an amalgamation of so many different components, and without a slurry test, what exactly are you measuring, individual components or pockets of hot spots within the saturation? There are applications where these readings could be helpful. For instance, I use layers and mineral spikes in my containers, regions of extremely hot raw components. It might be helpful to put a probe down into those regions to check on the pH in that zone, to see just how hot it is compared to the normal soil around it. In no way however does this localized reading have anything to do with the overall pH of my soil.

What you confused about is that somehow you think that you need to adjust your soil into a sweet spot. This is incorrect thinking... soil does not have a "sweet spot"; it has a base pH to which it reverts to. The only way to adjust that base pH is to chemically attack the buffers (usually lime) in that soil with acid to break them down and make them inert. You could drive your base pH of that soil way down into the acidic range if you wanted to, and indeed for some plants, orchids for example, this acidic soil is desirable, but for our cannabis plants it is not. The base pH of your soil is set up near 7 pH for a reason, and it does not need adjusting. It is already where it needs to be... you can't make it any sweeter.

The "sweet spot" that you are looking for is 6.3pH. It is a fluid measurement. Mathematically, this pH is where the most minerals are the most mobile within the suspension of that column of water and nutes that is created when you water. At the moment you water to saturation the pH of your container of soil is going to be the pH of the incoming fluid, simply because there is so much of it. The lime starts working against the lower pH fluids and slowly the pH of that column of water begins to drift upward. Also, as the plant is using water, the top layer of soil begins to dry out, and having lost the influence of the lower pH water, it reverts back to its base pH, usually 6.8 pH. This forces your nutrients through a range of pH before the plant absorbs them, allowing the plant to pick up each nutrient as it becomes the most mobile in the soil/water/nute mix. What so many people misunderstand is that there is no one magic number... no lock tight magic sweet spot. Our goal is to drift through the entire range, picking up each nutrient in its turn.

 

[BakedARea]

Our goal is to drift through the entire range, picking up each nutrient in its turn.

Awesome explanation! I appreciate you taking the time to spell that out a bit more for me. I'm tied up at the moment so I cannot respond to everything but I sincerely appreciate your wisdom. We'll chat again later!

 

[BakedARea]

Ok...it's been a stupid weird past couple days. 48 hour compost tea brew and EVERYTHING got a healthy soil drench (added silica) and a good foliar spray too (added yucca extract & silica).

pH of the tea was 6.86 and after adding the silica it jumped up to 7.87. I also diluted the tea with some tap water which averages 7.5-7.8. I was out of pH down so I watered as is. Thoughts on this? Which natural products do you use to bring your pH down? I recently used hydrated lime for increasing the pH.

I wanted to show how sad they look after getting a heavy foliar spray. About 3/4 of the plants were ready for a drink tomorrow. The rest would have been really thirsty by Wed considering we have a warm one tomorrow. Anyway, by tomorrow morning I am predicting that they will be perky and excited for the sunshine tomorrow. We shall see!

 

[BakedARea]

They all looked happy this morning!

 

[BakedARea]

This afternoon, I finally made some time to tie down some branches on the plants I recently transplanted into their final pots (Strawberry Banana, Do-Sa-Do #1, & #2). I have been hand bending/training all the plants every morning and afternoon since. I have enjoyed spending time with each plant. It has been therapeutic. They are growing too fast now so it seems the hand training just isn't enough. If I was able to do it another couple times per day, it could potentially make a difference. l also did some deleafing to clear out some of the damaged leaves and to open them up some more.

I am trying a few different training methods. Only way to figure out which I like is by doing different types until I'm comfortable with them. If you have opinions (pros & cons) on training methods, please comment.

The only plants that didn't get topped a few weeks ago was the Strawberry Banana and Do-Sa-Do #2. I am focusing on only LST with those.

I took lots of pics so it will probably be 2 posts of pics. Thanks everyone for joining me on this journal and all your help along the way. Don't hesitate to call out any concerns or issues you see.

I'm using only jute twine for this plant.

Do-Sa-Do #2 - LST only. Bent the main stock back about 45° facing north. I then used some garden wire to hold down any of the side branches to go around the pot. Defoliated too.

Strawberry Banana - LST only - Bent back main stock 45° and tied down side branches - Did some defoliation too.

A quick couple pics of GG4 that I have been hand training. I'm happy with its appearance and canopy so far. I will continue to do hand training that until its final pot. Then I'll probably be using some stakes and tying down the branches.

 

[BakedARea]

Some pics of the Romulan. Been hand training this baby a lot! I really like how she's spreading out. There are a lot of tops! Decided to do quite a bit of defoliation and I also topped a few more tops. The branches had 4 to 5 nodes where I topped. I also decided to not top some of them. I would like to compare some of the yield results. Thanks again to @TriangleCheese for encouraging me to top them. Definitely seeing an increase to the number of tops already.

So clones definitely grow more inconsistently than seedlings from my observation. Anyone else experience that? It has been more difficult for me to determine where to top correctly. Please take a look at these pics and let me know if I cut in the right spot.

 

[TriangleCheese]

Some pics of the Romulan. Been hand training this baby a lot! I really like how she's spreading out. There are a lot of tops! Decided to do quite a bit of defoliation and I also topped a few more tops. The branches had 4 to 5 nodes where I topped. I also decided to not top some of them. I would like to compare some of the yield results. Thanks again to @TriangleCheese for encouraging me to top them. Definitely seeing an increase to the number of tops already.

So clones definitely grow more inconsistently than seedlings from my observation. Anyone else experience that? It has been more difficult for me to determine where to top correctly. Please take a look at these pics and let me know if I cut in the right spot.

Looking fantastic

You can supercrop the nodes at the center as well. Even canopy is always better. I got too much workload these days so have to do some catching up here

 

[BakedARea]

Purple Punch is looking quite different compared to the rest. The bud sites are more developed and appear to be building. Is she in flower now?! I thought I would still have another couple months of veg before they would start flowering. Thanks!

 

[TriangleCheese]

This afternoon, I finally made some time to tie down some branches on the plants I recently transplanted into their final pots (Strawberry Banana, Do-Sa-Do #1, & #2). I have been hand bending/training all the plants every morning and afternoon since. I have enjoyed spending time with each plant. It has been therapeutic. They are growing too fast now so it seems the hand training just isn't enough. If I was able to do it another couple times per day, it could potentially make a difference. l also did some deleafing to clear out some of the damaged leaves and to open them up some more.

I am trying a few different training methods. Only way to figure out which I like is by doing different types until I'm comfortable with them. If you have opinions (pros & cons) on training methods, please comment.

The only plants that didn't get topped a few weeks ago was the Strawberry Banana and Do-Sa-Do #2. I am focusing on only LST with those.

I took lots of pics so it will probably be 2 posts of pics. Thanks everyone for joining me on this journal and all your help along the way. Don't hesitate to call out any concerns or issues you see.

I'm using only jute twine for this plant.

Do-Sa-Do #2 - LST only. Bent the main stock back about 45° facing north. I then used some garden wire to hold down any of the side branches to go around the pot. Defoliated too.

Strawberry Banana - LST only - Bent back main stock 45° and tied down side branches - Did some defoliation too.

A quick couple pics of GG4 that I have been hand training. I'm happy with its appearance and canopy so far. I will continue to do hand training that until its final pot. Then I'll probably be using some stakes and tying down the branches.

I need to jump in here. I see some leaf damage on some plants. Have you checked them closely?

Purple Punch is looking quite different compared to the rest. The bud sites are more developed and appear to be building. Is she in flower now?! I thought I would still have another couple months of veg before they would start flowering. Thanks!

Your PP looks officially in flowering. This one is not a huge stretcher so make sure she recieves the most light possible. She looks happy though I suggest cutting all of the fan leaves at this point. If you are defoliate on first week of flowering, you can also repeat the defoliation on third week if needed. A break between defoliations helps. After third week, its best to leave them alone.

I can share some info about the bud blasting characteristics of the PP. Same strains have different phenotypes but your plant doesn't look too much different from mine. Only difference is that my PP was trained for a long time and it was huge so nothing genetic. I observed huge bud development from week 4 to 6 is so you might consider a boost on her regular menu on these weeks.

Defoliation really helps and you need to make sure every active part of the plant is recieving light. Instead of heavy defoliation, you can consider removing the weak lower parts of the plant. Since you are utilising sun, light intensity doesn't decrease when you lower your canopy level for a few inches so you can LST this plant further to expose all of the nug making parts to light instead of cutting all of the fan leaves. You'll need to cut the big old fan leaves in both situations though.

Hope these help. Please check your leaves and let us know what is going on there.

Cheers

 

[BakedARea]

Thanks for chiming in! I appreciate it. There is some residual damage still from what we think was a potassium deficiency. That seems to be cleared up at this point and I have been slowly removing those damaged leaves. I need to get an updated pic of where's she is at now. MUCH cleaner!

Your PP looks officially in flowering

That's what I don't understand! I thought I would have had at least another month or maybe two of veg. It seems too early to flower. I'm getting 15+ hrs of light right now. I wonder what triggered her to flower. Too late to transplant her into something much larger? I was going to put her into a 10 gal.

I need to go back into my pics and start calculating how far into flower she officially is. I am thinking week 2-3 at this point.

Defoliation really helps and you need to make sure every active part of the plant is recieving light.

I am definitely not getting enough light inside the plant. I have been doing some LST but not enough. I have been doing minor hand training methods. My plan was to start tieing down branches when I did the final transplant. I hope it's not too late to start that and still get a more even canopy.

you can LST this plant further to expose all of the nug making parts to light instead of cutting all of the fan leaves.

As soon as I transplant her (tomorrow), I will tie those branches down and open up that canopy. Again, many thanks for the advice and let me know if there's anything else I should consider.

 

[TriangleCheese]

Thanks for chiming in! I appreciate it. There is some residual damage still from what we think was a potassium deficiency. That seems to be cleared up at this point and I have been slowly removing those damaged leaves. I need to get an updated pic of where's she is at now. MUCH cleaner!



That's what I don't understand! I thought I would have had at least another month or maybe two of veg. It seems too early to flower. I'm getting 15+ hrs of light right now. I wonder what triggered her to flower. Too late to transplant her into something much larger? I was going to put her into a 10 gal.

I need to go back into my pics and start calculating how far into flower she officially is. I am thinking week 2-3 at this point.



I am definitely not getting enough light inside the plant. I have been doing some LST but not enough. I have been doing minor hand training methods. My plan was to start tieing down branches when I did the final transplant. I hope it's not too late to start that and still get a more even canopy.



As soon as I transplant her (tomorrow), I will tie those branches down and open up that canopy. Again, many thanks for the advice and let me know if there's anything else I should consider.

Can be anything because we are not able to watch our plants for 24 hours. There might be some problem in the light hours and flowering can be triggered in a short time. Just make sure you provide the most possible light for that lovely plant from now on.

If you are on week 3, defoliation is still fine but I don't advise removing all of the lower parts at this point. After week 3 plants don't grow much so you can remove only the underdeveloped, blind parts. More developed lower parts have the chance to recover and produce fine nugs so it is better to expose them to light instead of removing them. If you were on week one, things would have changed and I would have advised focusing on the tops when they still had the chance to grow upwards.

Cheers

 

[BakedARea]

I wanted to show the progress I made yesterday in the garden. I finally transplanted into final containers for a few plants (Purple Punch, Romulan, and GG4). I need to even out the canopy on all of them. Been working on it slowly but hopefully these small cages will help. Next time, 5 foot high minimum wire roll! I would prefer a 6 foot tall cage instead honestly.

Who prefers to cage them versus use multiple supports rods (bamboo, plastic, etc.)?

I defoliated quite a bit on all of them. After the transplant process the entire garden got fed via drench and foliar.

First up is the Purple Punch in a 20 gallon fabric pot. She's looking beautiful this morning and appears to have appreciated the food and shower.

Considering she is in flower now (2nd week by my estimates), what are dos and don'ts for foliar feeding and pest management? Is it ok to continue with neem and BT for pests?

Next up is GG4 in a 10 gallon.

And Romulan in a 20 gallon.

 

[TriangleCheese]

I wanted to show the progress I made yesterday in the garden. I finally transplanted into final containers for a few plants (Purple Punch, Romulan, and GG4). I need to even out the canopy on all of them. Been working on it slowly but hopefully these small cages will help. Next time, 5 foot high minimum wire roll! I would prefer a 6 foot tall cage instead honestly.

Who prefers to cage them versus use multiple supports rods (bamboo, plastic, etc.)?

I defoliated quite a bit on all of them. After the transplant process the entire garden got fed via drench and foliar.

First up is the Purple Punch in a 20 gallon fabric pot. She's looking beautiful this morning and appears to have appreciated the food and shower.

Considering she is in flower now (2nd week by my estimates), what are dos and don'ts for foliar feeding and pest management? Is it ok to continue with neem and BT for pests?

Next up is GG4 in a 10 gallon.

And Romulan in a 20 gallon.

Cages are fine but you might want to use some extra strings to spread it a little further. Definately spread and snip that Purple Punch more. You can keep spraying neem oil until last week or even last couple of days. You can still cut those huge fan leaves. They are preventing you from getting a big dense cola. Instead you will get a solid top on a weak popcorn bottom. Expose all the nodes.