Bentley's DIY Aeroponic HPA, Northern Lights Auto, Grow Journal Jan 2021

[lvumlow]

I tried weening back for a week but I did not like the way the plant looked so I left it as manufacturer recommendations until the end. I always flush with H202 every week though and gave it 48hrs of darkness before harvest.

There are lots of opinions about preharvest flushing around but we decided to feed her until the end.

Do you have your grow documented somewhere?

 

[sirstich]

This was from a few days ago..

 

[sirstich]

It won’t let me post a grow, I guess because I’m a new member? But I had to delete a lot of pictures to make space on my phone from this grow but I plan on making one for my second run.. I wanted to start from clones I took off these for next time but went out of town for a few days and forgot to get my girl to water them.

 

[sirstich]

I just realized those pictures were more like 10 days ago.. here they are tonight

 

[lvumlow]

It looks like you have an awesome grow going, congrats and get a journal up once you can so we can follow along...

 

[linux]

This is probably a good time to talk about CO2. I have literally tried everything from Exhale bags, Sugar/Yeast buckets, Sodium Bicarbonate/folic Acid Buckets and let me share my experience along the way.

I bought the CO2 sensor for my Ubibot monitor and it works great so I can at lease see where my levels are now. Now my only problem is how to supply an effective level of CO2? I tried all the things above with terrible luck. Dont waste your time with exhale bags, they are literally worthless and a waste of money. The other chemical solutions either produce odors and/or do not produce a regular consistent supply of CO2. Then one day I get a work call while I am working in the garden and the call ran on for about an hour and a half, but when I got back to my desk I see this huge spike of CO2 in my logs and low and behold it is during the time that I was on the call. For a long time I was playing with all the mentioned items above and could barely move the needle but I get one call and my own breathe sent me over 1000ppms just by talking so at least I know my monitors are working properly.

Now, I start looking at the other main options: CO2 bottle (which requires a regulator and controller) .vs some of the other propane generators and because I am in a really tight area, heat is an issue so the propane is not looking like a good option. CO2 bottles are not easily filled as I live in a rural town that is really small. I did see a water cooled CO2 generator that looked promising so I bought it only to find out weeks later is has been discontinued and no longer available which is a bummer because the solution looked perfect. The problem now is that it is not available anywhere and while I was looking at the comments section of it I see a post from someone who recommended to avoid that product anyway because it was unreliable and to simply look into a camping tankless water heater. Interesting?

Funny thing is, I didn't even know there was such a thing. I have to laugh a little but come on; camping and hot showers don't really associate with each other right? Anyway, I understand the basic concept which is the release CO2 as a byproduct of the propane burner in the water heater so I performed a quick little test with a Coleman 10,000 BTU propane heater. I lit it for a few minutes and wow, my CO2 levels sky rocketed so I decided to dig a little deeper and eventually ended up getting a CampLux portable tankless water heater along with a 7.5gal bucket and hoped I could simply recirculate the water (hoping the bucket of water would serve to buffer the heat). Well, let me save you some time if you are thinking about some crazy solution like this; it can work (I have it working properly) but it was a rabbit hole that (like many others) made me wish I had just spent the money on a CO2 tank, regulator and controller. I thought I was going to save money and ultimately it ended up costing me about the same in the long run plus all the engineering hassle but it does provide one valuable option; you can route the hot water to a different room to be cooled so i may have some value for the right situation. The problem now is that the water heater works really well and the output temperature from it easily exceeds 160 degrees and that simply is never going to cool off in time if you are recirculating it in a 7 gal bucket. Unfortunately, I was already invested in this hair-brained scheme so I wanted to share the awful experience with you so you can learn from my challenges. I tried to use a fountain pump to recirculate my water and you will find that most fountain pumps do not have a high pressure or volume spec so I spent $80 to get a high power fountain pump that would hopefully solve the pressure/volume problem only to find out that none of them will tolerate the high temps that come from the water heater. Ultimately, I tried purchasing a pump for home beer brewing and this seemed to solve the heat problem but then I found out that the water heater itself will over heat if you cannot get water cooled enough so more money wasted... This was a classic case of terrible research but I was looking for answers any place i could find them and everything was hypothetical anyway (I did not find anyone with this configuration actually working) tried to make it work. In the end, I ended up purchasing some inexpensive water radiators designed for cooling CPU's on amazon to cool off the water and the final modification was to purchase a 5v power supply so I can change this unit from battery power to AC and I have to say that as ugly of a solution that it is - it does work flawlessly now but it was a drag working through all the challenges along the way.

Bottom line: if you want to utilize something similar, I would recommend you have a good cooling solution or get a lower BTU heater or possibly both? Mine is a CampLux 65000 BTU portable camping heater and it is way over-powered in terms of CO2. I have it controlled by a CO2 controller and it kicks on for about 3 min every 30 min or so and keeps my room at 1500ppm when the light is on. a propane tank lasts a pretty good amount of time (over a week) .

Here are some pics (like i said, it is an ugly solution but there is something to learn along the way so I figured I would share it even though I am slightly embarrassed by the scope creep).

I actually like this idea. Its very "green" energy friendly.

You're killing two birds with one shot with this type of setup.
You can heat a good portion of the house/vicinity during the cold/winter times or even use it to get hot water from the tap and at the same time get wealth of CO2 production for the cannabis plants.
However a tankless water heater that uses gas to produce CO2 is only useful during the winter times since it is the only time the tankless system is called to burn gas. I would reverse engineer the tankless system if you have no plans or intentions to use it's water heating capabilities so that you can burn gas 24/7 without the hassle of cooling water.
Just simply remove the water heat exchanger element which the burners touch to heat the water, this is not needed and you do not need to cool down water anymore.
You will most likely need to modify few things to trick the system into burning gas without the water heat exchanger, this could be tricky if you do not know how to do it but its very easy to modify.

Regardless what is being done, any burning gas should always be a pure blue color flame for maximum CO2 production, heating efficiency and most importantly safety.

If you ever see a yellow flame, simply stop the gas burning system since you are now producing carbon monoxide which is deadly will never be able to notice it since it can not be sensed or smelled.
Yellow burning flame of any gas burning system (including a match stick) indicates that the gas is not fully combusting with enough of oxygen to produce a clean blue flame.

I would also advice to obtain at least two carbon monoxide sensors from home depot, one mounted somewhat near the water tankless heater and also one a bit far from it for added redundancy so that they will alarm when carbon monoxide poisoning is occurring. Keep note when they expire and replace them.

It is therefore a cheaper, greener, super safe and smarter route than highly compressed CO2 or propane tanks if using natural gas.
Burning natural cooking gas provided from the vicinity's gas line will always be cheaper and less hassle than ordering CO2 tanks.

However, some grow ops use propane/CO2 tanks to stay off the grid for obvious reasons.

There are also gas burners (CO2 generators) specifically designed for high production of CO2, made for grow ops.
You can make these gas burners very easily and cheaply. Either fully automatic digital control or old school gas pilot systems or a hybrid advanced system which uses old school gas pilot with custom microcontroller and sensors for automation.

Building one yourself would be less than $150, which would be a hybrid system utilizing digital control for automation along with a gas pilot for added safety. How ever this would not provide any kind of water heating, just straight up burning natural gas for CO2 production. (Propane/Butane could also be used).
I might make one for natural gas someday and post a thread on how to build one.

I found a low priced, 6 liter effective generic tankless water heater for $70:

1.6GPM Portable Tankless Hot Water Heater Campers Propane Gas LPG 6L

This however is only for liquid petroleum gases (LPG), such as butane or propane.

Here is a 5 liter tankless water heater for $200, this is for Natural Gas (NG):

MAREY GA5FNG 1.32 GPM 34,120 BTU's NG Gas Flow activated Gas Tankless Water Heater

The price is so high maybe because it's winter as of now.
But these gas water heaters uses the same exact technology and material concepts for both "LPG" and "NG" gases. They just need different ratios of oxygen and pressure control for optimal and safe clean combustion, hence why they need different gas orifices, burner sizes, possibly different safety pilot and thermostat inside the tankless water heater, in which all of these critical components usually looks some what identical from both types of gas systems, but they indeed they have different parameters designed only for the particular gas that can be used which is advertised.
Do not try using natural gas to a propane gas system and vice versa.

I would rather use the generic Chinese tankless water heaters because they are super easy to understand on how they work and can be easily, cheaply and quickly reversed engineered and repaired.

The super duper expensive tankless water heaters are not worth the money because they specifically design their water heaters such that it will be extremely difficult in repairing or reverse engineered, patented proprietary specific stuff. Its only worth the money if you're not ever interested in fixing your own tankless water heater and want to sleep well at night with their long term warranty.

Lastly here is a simple example if you would like to build a safe fully custom automated CO2 gas burner, just buy any kind of natural gas (or propane) burner manifold that seems easy to implement, this one costs only $20, it's for "NG" gas:

Zodiac R0496204 Natural Gas Manifold Assembly Replacement for Zodiac Jandy LRZM325

This requires a few more components to make it work safely and fully automated digitally using a microcontroller.

 

[lvumlow]

Thanks for the information, I made some improvements for coolling the water and now it is super efficient (my reservoir rarely gets over 90 degrees now). The unit only runs for about 2 min every 20-30 min to keep the grow room at 1300ppm CO2.

I would love to convert this unit to natural gas but still run propane at the moment.

I have a ton of improvements for my next grow but ran into some other distractions delaying it. I hope to start another grow soon.

 

[linux]

I saw this root chamber and wanted to see what you think of it. You have mentioned you are going to be using a new root chamber going forward, and I am curious what you plan to use. This one is sized for 18 plants.

I would like to use a bottom grate with silk screen to keep the roots from ending up in the runoff. I have yet to price this, but I have the room to use it.

wow thats the most ideal root chamber I have ever seen, it is ideal for plants that shoots out large roots vertically such as cannabis plants. Hence the the roots will be close to the most authentic true aeroponic system, since all surface area of the roots from top to bottom are 100% in air and will receive proper 100% of 50 micron hydro atomized nutrients.
This is return will provide very fast growth and yields.

Who ever built that chamber for specifically for aeroponics, sure as hell know the "True Aeroponics" science of NASA's true aero systems.

 

[Jon]

wow thats the most ideal root chamber I have ever seen, it is ideal for plants that shoots out large roots vertically such as cannabis plants. Hence the the roots will be close to the most authentic true aeroponic system, since all surface area of the roots from top to bottom are 100% in air and will receive proper 100% of 50 micron hydro atomized nutrients.
This is return will provide very fast growth and yields.

That's completely insane. How big a room would one need to house that beast? Damn.

 

[linux]

Thanks for dropping in. That looks to be an awesome setup. My approach for Rev 2 will have a little proprietary experimentation so I can't go into every detail (because I may try to market some of it if I can replicate results) but I can say that one of my main approaches will be to look at the plant as a whole. I believe it is very common for people to focus the majority of their attention to the top portion of the plant. Don't get me wrong, I understand that most of the growers out there pay attention to the root zone but I have yet to see anyone address the plant equally with respect to top and bottom. I will say that this is my first run and I feel like an infant looking at the world sometimes when the science gets crazy but I am planning to devote dedicated space for the plant to grow in both directions (up and down) so my next experiment will be to start the plant in the center of the grow space. I am really only focusing on a "pocket grow" strategy at the moment and will scale up later if this works. The holy grail for me will be to get the highest yield possible in the smallest grow space. This first grow was really just a proof of concept and I never expected it to go the full distance but it was a pleasant surprise and we all can use a win from time to time right? I was sure that there was such a steep learning curve (for a first timer to tackle an Aeroponic configuration) that I would lose it along the way but hey, we made it so now it is time to replicate, confirm and possibly improve along the way ...and I have lots of ideas for experimentation pending.

My next root chamber will have some type of cylinder shape but plan to have it as deep at I expect to let the plant grow high (hence the center-point perspective). This strategy is very much in the experimentation phase but one observation from this grow was the when things were optimal (before my roots bottomed out) I noticed that the root structure was very close to the size of the plant on top. It was not until I bottomed out that I lost a lot of efficiency with sprayers and accumulation at the bottom of the root chamber. This next time I am hoping to have just as much space for the bottom as the top so I can keep that root zone optimal through harvest. I probably should say that I am not planning to grow a large 10ft plant, my plans are currently focused around Autoflower strains that stay small and bushy until I can confirm some theories but the main premise is that "bigger roots = more fruit" and I am hoping to illustrate that you don't need to go big to bring in a nice yield - then we get into the quality discussion where I am again hoping that an advanced root structure can provide not only better quantity but also better quality.

Overall, this grow utilized only 54ft³ and the entire plant stood at 3 ft tall. I am hoping to utilize 6 ft of vertical space this time with one plant and compare results to see if I am barking up the wrong tree or not. It's all a work in progress. I also spent a lot of time engineering automation into my processes and now that I have a lot of that worked out I am hoping to be able to spend more time with some creative solutions to amplify efficiency further.

I am expecting my new chamber in the next week or two and will need to design some new parts with a 3D printer but I am hopeful I can get the same if not better results this next time around - shouldn't be too hard since there was so much learned from this last run but I always try to remind myself that it is easy to experience a catastrophic failure at any point and for a wide variety of reasons so this next run is all about confirming results.

Try to obtain NASA's aeroponics mister nozzles, they cost only $10 for two nozzles. They are zero run-off and is it an engineered and patented nozzle product which no other mister company can copy. It is clog free and engineered plastic.
Many research and development has been gone through by NASA scientists to make these nozzles precisely and specifically for true aeroponic systems, we should all be grateful that they sell this nozzle to the public.
I have them and never had any issues.

Here is the link to the misters who first invented "True Aeroponics" the company that is sponsored by NASA and worked with NASA both in space and earth experiments for True Aeroponics:

Aeroponic Spray, Jets, Misters, agricultural nozzles

 

[linux]

That's completely insane. How big a room would one need to house that beast? Damn.

This is for the most "perfectionists" commercial/die hard growers who wants to grow using "True Aeroponics" for plants that grows large roots. "True Aeroponics" requires large vertical space so that the roots never ever touches the bottom. This obviously not ideal for the home grower .

I'm really surprised that someone in this world actually is so serious enough to build such massive chamber for true aeroponics holding 18 plants. I would like to know where is the source of this photo.

 

[linux]

I saw this root chamber and wanted to see what you think of it. You have mentioned you are going to be using a new root chamber going forward, and I am curious what you plan to use. This one is sized for 18 plants.

I would like to use a bottom grate with silk screen to keep the roots from ending up in the runoff. I have yet to price this, but I have the room to use it.

Did you make this root chamber? Where is the source of this massive root chamber?

 

[lvumlow]

My Rev 2 setup will introduce a 250gal root chamber. By comparison, my first one was 27gal so this will be an interesting experiment if I can ever get started. I hope to start working in the grow room soon, the house has to many priorities at the moment but stay tuned it's coming...

 

[linux]

My Rev 2 setup will introduce a 250gal root chamber. By comparison, my first one was 27gal so this will be an interesting experiment if I can ever get started. I hope to start working in the grow room soon, the house has to many priorities at the moment but stay tuned it's coming...

Wow. I can't wait for this grow journal to start.

This should be close to 100% true aeroponics with that type of chamber.

I hope that with this large chamber, no more than 5% of the roots does not sit or touch the bottom chamber's inner base/floor.

I hope the data and research you observe/share and collect with this type of large chamber truly proves that a bigger chamber with the cannabis roots 100% suspended in air causes much faster growth, higher yields, optimal hydro-atomization of nutes feeding 100% of the roots surface area top to bottom and lesser chances of root rot/disease/death. Thus the outcome of this implementation is being extremely efficient compared to other HPA aero systems where more than 50% of the roots are all sitting down and compacted at the chamber's inner base/floor which is not ideal and efficient or considered as a valid "True Aeroponics" from NASA's science and research in True Aeroponics.

From my search and understanding NASA has never tried to implement "True Aeroponics" for plants that produces large roots, such as cannabis plants. Because there were only interested with their research and funding for agricultural commodity crops that benefits humans in which the world population will greatly increase in the soon future. Many of the important commodity crops does not shoot out massive large roots vertical like cannabis plants.

Even the inventor of Aeroponics "Agrihouse" who are sponsored by NASA back-to-back, does not have any interests for providing a ready and valid commercial solution for plants that shoots out massive roots vertically.
They precisely advice their customers to use their "True Aeroponics" systems as a cloning/propagation solution for plants that will eventually grow roots vertically and outgrowing the root chamber. I find this very odd and interesting

Not sure if you thought about it, would be very effective if you added some kind of root trellising, the hydro-atomized nutes will have greater chance to properly reach and contact all of the well distributed suspended roots equally/efficiently and effectively for the given short misting time, the percentage of roots that will be hiding in the center vertical axis mass will be very low when there is a root trellising implementation.
Which means when the misters are spraying for 3 secs, all of the 50 micron hydro-atomized mists should make contact of at least 97%-100% of the roots during the 3 secs misting and also after the misters stop spraying (there are still hydro-atomized mists still floating in the chamber air when the misters are no longer spraying).
You'll save more nutes this way, the plant's roots will "actively" consume more nutes and grow faster. Overall being more efficient.

Would also like to mention, using larger chamber for true aero is useful only when the need of growing more yield out from one plant is required, they produce large vertical roots and always fill up the inner chamber's base/floor.
Doing a "Screen of Green" will be effective and efficient, specially for one plant with a large container.
You might also need some of additional vertical space (hopefully not if implementing "Screen of Green" with some training and pruning to the plants).

I am also currently designing a 100% true aeroponics system. My idea was to use large heavy duty 6 mil plastic garbage bags lol Because its each to buy, very cheap, very customizable, super light weight, easy maneuverability/transportation, height can be adjusted in real time when the aeroponic system is being used, can be easily disposed and replaced by a fresh bag after harvest, resistant to many harsh chemicals (depending which type of plastic used) and will work perfectly for True Aeroponics applications. 6 Mil is very thick plastic, puncturing should not be a concern and can be easily be taped if there were any punctures. If there were any unnoticed punctures it wouldn't be any major issues during the life of the grow till harvest, since the plastic bag chamber is filled with nothing but air and roots 97% of the time.

Believe it or not, the inventor of true aeroponics, Mr. "Richard Stoner" (CEO of Argihouse), actually invented a similar concept of using a large inflatable plastic chamber mechanism many decades ago to implement true aeroponics to be tested at NASA Shuttle–Mir space mission.

After seeing the two different large aeroponics rooting chambers in this thread... I'm thinking I'll need to implement a much much larger "plastic bag" . Think I need to "seal" some plastic sheets together which isn't too hard.

 

[Zatoichi]

Did you make this root chamber? Where is the source of this massive root chamber?

Hey Linux,

I found it on a facebook page, here is a link to a lot of photos of it: Facebook

Its a company called Indoor Harvest, but I think they are no longer in business. At least they were not last time I checked. No response to email inquiries. But damn, that is a great design for an aero grow chamber and table!

There is a company called Aeriz in Phoenix using very similar tables. Here is a video about their operation. You may have to scroll forward until they show the growing rooms and tables.

Fast forward to 11:00 to see the tables in action.

 

[Zatoichi]

Wow. I can't wait for this grow journal to start.

This should be close to 100% true aeroponics with that type of chamber.

I hope that with this large chamber, no more than 5% of the roots does not sit or touch the bottom chamber's inner base/floor.

I hope the data and research you observe/share and collect with this type of large chamber truly proves that a bigger chamber with the cannabis roots 100% suspended in air causes much faster growth, higher yields, optimal hydro-atomization of nutes feeding 100% of the roots surface area top to bottom and lesser chances of root rot/disease/death. Thus the outcome of this implementation is being extremely efficient compared to other HPA aero systems where more than 50% of the roots are all sitting down and compacted at the chamber's inner base/floor which is not ideal and efficient or considered as a valid "True Aeroponics" from NASA's science and research in True Aeroponics.

From my search and understanding NASA has never tried to implement "True Aeroponics" for plants that produces large roots, such as cannabis plants. Because there were only interested with their research and funding for agricultural commodity crops that benefits humans in which the world population will greatly increase in the soon future. Many of the important commodity crops does not shoot out massive large roots vertical like cannabis plants.

Even the inventor of Aeroponics "Agrihouse" who are sponsored by NASA back-to-back, does not have any interests for providing a ready and valid commercial solution for plants that shoots out massive roots vertically.
They precisely advice their customers to use their "True Aeroponics" systems as a cloning/propagation solution for plants that will eventually grow roots vertically and outgrowing the root chamber. I find this very odd and interesting

Not sure if you thought about it, would be very effective if you added some kind of root trellising, the hydro-atomized nutes will have greater chance to properly reach and contact all of the well distributed suspended roots equally/efficiently and effectively for the given short misting time, the percentage of roots that will be hiding in the center vertical axis mass will be very low when there is a root trellising implementation.
Which means when the misters are spraying for 3 secs, all of the 50 micron hydro-atomized mists should make contact of at least 97%-100% of the roots during the 3 secs misting and also after the misters stop spraying (there are still hydro-atomized mists still floating in the chamber air when the misters are no longer spraying).
You'll save more nutes this way, the plant's roots will "actively" consume more nutes and grow faster. Overall being more efficient.

Would also like to mention, using larger chamber for true aero is useful only when the need of growing more yield out from one plant is required, they produce large vertical roots and always fill up the inner chamber's base/floor.
Doing a "Screen of Green" will be effective and efficient, specially for one plant with a large container.
You might also need some of additional vertical space (hopefully not if implementing "Screen of Green" with some training and pruning to the plants).

I am also currently designing a 100% true aeroponics system. My idea was to use large heavy duty 6 mil plastic garbage bags lol Because its each to buy, very cheap, very customizable, super light weight, easy maneuverability/transportation, height can be adjusted in real time when the aeroponic system is being used, can be easily disposed and replaced by a fresh bag after harvest, resistant to many harsh chemicals (depending which type of plastic used) and will work perfectly for True Aeroponics applications. 6 Mil is very thick plastic, puncturing should not be a concern and can be easily be taped if there were any punctures. If there were any unnoticed punctures it wouldn't be any major issues during the life of the grow till harvest, since the plastic bag chamber is filled with nothing but air and roots 97% of the time.

Believe it or not, the inventor of true aeroponics, Mr. "Richard Stoner" (CEO of Argihouse), actually invented a similar concept of using a large inflatable plastic chamber mechanism many decades ago to implement true aeroponics to be tested at NASA Shuttle–Mir space mission.

After seeing the two different large aeroponics rooting chambers in this thread... I'm thinking I'll need to implement a much much larger "plastic bag" . Think I need to "seal" some plastic sheets together which isn't too hard.

Make sure you remember you have to get large grow chambers through doorways into grow rooms. Trust me, its come up with a friend of mine.

 

[lvumlow]

lol, if you look closely - you will see where i had to cut my root tub in half to get it in the house and used flexseal tape to re-seal it...