Breeding help

[Curbcalamity]

soooooooooooooo heres my idea for the strain i want to create, before you knock the genetic choices i say poohey, well all have differetn tastes and this is my first attempt at breeding so i just wanted to make sure I will be following the correct technique....
the strain i wanna make is pineapple widow (black widow x pineapple chunks)

ohhh i forgot to add this but I'm just looking to have a mum that's unique. ie, I just want t find 1 pheno I'm happy with not create a new stablized strain

sooooo i had 2 diffferent ideas

firstidea:
cross a pineapple chunks(f) with a black widow (f) to create a bunch of (probably) boring F1 femminized seeds

idea 2:
take a black widow (m) cross with a fem pineapple chunks. to obtain regular F1 seeds. then pick a pheno i like and self it (with a cutting of course) to get F2 fem seeds, then pheno hunt them. or would they no longer have the genetic recombination that occurs with regular F2 seeds? should i just pick a new mum and dad mix then and pheno hunt those?

but if i did want to self it id need to use colloidal silver spray in a concentration that amplifies a laser by orders of magnitude 10 or higher or something around that? (i know how to make my own already - electrolysis)

is there anything i should know about how to select a male breeding parent?
and how do you know which parent would be better suited to breeding? should i maybe start with 2 unfeminized parents?
is there any reason i cant just leave mum and dad alone in a room together? is hand-pollination strictly necessary?
does she give any signs when seeds are ready other than it takes about 2 weeks?

 

[TorturedSoul]

idea 2:
take a black widow (m) cross with a fem pineapple chunks. to obtain regular F1 seeds. then pick a pheno i like and self it (with a cutting of course) to get F2 fem seeds

That's not how you get an F₂ generation. For that, you'd cross your two parent stock plants *or two sets of many parent stock plants, since the traits that you really want might not be present in a single pair of potential parent stock's genes in the first place* to get a bunch of F₁ seeds, grow out the seeds, and breed some of those together. The resulting seeds would be the F₂ generation. And their traits would vary - so that would be the ones you'd do your phenotype hunt with. For best results, of course, you'd produce a lot of seeds (each time). Might not seem like it's all that important when you're doing the F₁ generation, but it is, sort of. Then you'd grow out a bunch - or maybe 25 to 50 if you're lacking space/etc., all in the same space, and don't cull males. Or... If you want to ensure the most "mix" in your F₂ generation, you'd hand-collect the pollen from each of your (hopefully) many male plants separately, and pollinate each of your (hopefully) many female plants with pollen from each of your male donors.

EDIT: An additional generation or two might prove to be a good idea, too.

Since you're not interested in fixing traits / stabilizing / etc., you wouldn't need to label each and every permutation - but it is a good idea to make sure that you've got seeds from each and every combination of genetics, maybe 25 to 50, so that you can have a reasonably decent representation of the dice-rolls that each of those permutations would have produced in their offspring. Which wouldn't be every possibility, but I'm assuming you don't have 25 acres for this . But it does sort of illustrate why a person can't just buy packs of seeds and whip up a copy of a "clone-only strain." it's like... Hypothetically, you have a brother and you and your brother marry a pair of sisters. The odds of you (and your wife) and your brother (and his wife) then going on to produce a set of cousins that are, effectively, clones is approximately 1/∞ (that's an infinity symbol, in case it doesn't post correctly). You might get pretty close if you each produce... IDK... 10,000 boy (or girl) children. But even those won't be anywhere near exact.

But every pollen-chucker and his brother the website builder is in the cannabis seed business and each has their own "version" of {strain} that they say is the same as the original . To which, I generally say, "Pull the other one - it's got bells on it." There's a reason that some old-school breeders such as Simon at Serious seeds had a strain library of, what, six or seven strains for a long time - creating even that many, and doing it well, takes a lot of space / time / effort / resources. There's also a reason that, if/when a breeder gets busted or loses his/her stock for some other reason, the "recreations" are almost never the same. Also... there's a reason why I wonder HtH "single seed sales" ever became any kind of viable thing. But I digress.

Anyway, I don't know what your plans are in regards to plant numbers. My recommendation is to grow as many as you can, after producing as many seeds as you can. That might amount to a few hundred, or it might amount to... a few. It's a lottery, yeah? You can't win if you don't play. If you play, you can win - but if you only buy one ticket, your odds of hitting the big jackpot aren't so great.

Oh, and another thing: This selection process need not happen all at once. Grow out as many as you can. Keep the best one (or two) as a mother. Grow out a different set of as many as you can. If one (or two) beats what you kept from round one, it (or they) just replaced the original "keepers" rinse/lather/repeat. Presumably, enjoy some increasingly fine bud all along the way. . . .

Additional EDIT: No, if you're only growing out one pair of potential parent stock plants, there's no real reason why you'd have to hand-pollinate. Place them like this: Oscillating fan - male - female and, sooner or later, you'll have lots of seeds. Maybe several thousand. You'll also know whether you're allergic to cannabis pollen .

 

[Curbcalamity]

Thanks for the info very helpful. Yeah I don't see how that's different from what I described for making F1 so crossing the children of 2 stable strain parents doesn't yield F1s which I can mix ammounts themselves? I was gonna collect pollen from 1 male and then keep growing females till I find one I like and then self to to try.improve the desirable traits. The last stage I could do ple leave out tbh.

our right Bout numbers though. Used to take starting with atleast 100 and up to 10 Years. With advances.in Dna of.this plant you don't need to even grow them out to find those traits you want. If you can afford it.

So what would happen if I say
Pineapple skunk(P1f) x black widow (P2m) from 1 male who's desirable (not all pollen is equal) will I get regular or feminized seeds? Regular right? So if I grow out say 10 of those and keep only the strongest male and cross him with my fav female (have to do hem all and retroactivity pick the best
I should get F2.femminized.seeds.right?


Crossing 2 stabilized strains then crossing their offspring. I saw a good talk at canniest.in Prague about how you can create dtablizstabilized strains starting with 10 plants within 1 years when it used to take hundreds.

I get the siblings remark. But if I take black widow (m) x pineapple chunks (f) and cross the resulting F1 seeds (I'd select one male.to pollinate 5 females
Then keep the female seeds.from the plant that I would've.grown out to see their traits
Was.thinking of starting with a 10 pack of each. Mr nice says for black widow breeding the male.ianpreferred. ac

The reason reason people can't make their own is because most seed banks won't give out F1 unfeminized seeds. I've asked them all. I was just gonna back cross or self the resulting F1 generation.

 

[Curbcalamity]

That's not how you get an F₂ generation. For that, you'd cross your two parent stock plants *or two sets of many parent stock plants, since the traits that you really want might not be present in a single pair of potential parent stock's genes in the first place* to get a bunch of F₁ seeds, grow out the seeds, and breed some of those together. The resulting seeds would be the F₂ generation. And their traits would vary - so that would be the ones you'd do your phenotype hunt with. For best results, of course, you'd produce a lot of seeds (each time). Might not seem like it's all that important when you're doing the F₁ generation, but it is, sort of. Then you'd grow out a bunch - or maybe 25 to 50 if you're lacking space/etc., all in the same space, and don't cull males. Or... If you want to ensure the most "mix" in your F₂ generation, you'd hand-collect the pollen from each of your (hopefully) many male plants separately, and pollinate each of your (hopefully) many female plants with pollen from each of your male donors.

EDIT: An additional generation or two might prove to be a good idea, too.

Since you're not interested in fixing traits / stabilizing / etc., you wouldn't need to label each and every permutation - but it is a good idea to make sure that you've got seeds from each and every combination of genetics, maybe 25 to 50, so that you can have a reasonably decent representation of the dice-rolls that each of those permutations would have produced in their offspring. Which wouldn't be every possibility, but I'm assuming you don't have 25 acres for this . But it does sort of illustrate why a person can't just buy packs of seeds and whip up a copy of a "clone-only strain." it's like... Hypothetically, you have a brother and you and your brother marry a pair of sisters. The odds of you (and your wife) and your brother (and his wife) then going on to produce a set of cousins that are, effectively, clones is approximately 1/∞ (that's an infinity symbol, in case it doesn't post correctly). You might get pretty close if you each produce... IDK... 10,000 boy (or girl) children. But even those won't be anywhere near exact.

But every pollen-chucker and his brother the website builder is in the cannabis seed business and each has their own "version" of {strain} that they say is the same as the original . To which, I generally say, "Pull the other one - it's got bells on it." There's a reason that some old-school breeders such as Simon at Serious seeds had a strain library of, what, six or seven strains for a long time - creating even that many, and doing it well, takes a lot of space / time / effort / resources. There's also a reason that, if/when a breeder gets busted or loses his/her stock for some other reason, the "recreations" are almost never the same. Also... there's a reason why I wonder HtH "single seed sales" ever became any kind of viable thing. But I digress.

Anyway, I don't know what your plans are in regards to plant numbers. My recommendation is to grow as many as you can, after producing as many seeds as you can. That might amount to a few hundred, or it might amount to... a few. It's a lottery, yeah? You can't win if you don't play. If you play, you can win - but if you only buy one ticket, your odds of hitting the big jackpot aren't so great.

Oh, and another thing: This selection process need not happen all at once. Grow out as many as you can. Keep the best one (or two) as a mother. Grow out a different set of as many as you can. If one (or two) beats what you kept from round one, it (or they) just replaced the original "keepers" rinse/lather/repeat. Presumably, enjoy some increasingly fine bud all along the way. . . .

Additional EDIT: No, if you're only growing out one pair of potential parent stock plants, there's no real reason why you'd have to hand-pollinate. Place them like this: Oscillating fan - male - female and, sooner or later, you'll have lots of seeds. Maybe several thousand. You'll also know whether you're allergic to cannabis pollen .

Thanks I found this really.hwlpful though, but I figured
Seed banks do the stress testing for you, you probably have decent representations of the genetics I might just cross to females of the f1 generation if I find one I like, they should be more homogenous atleast
Im thinking to start with a 10 pack of each strain and selectively weed out the duds
The lotto comment, don't forget, the chromosome pairs inside an egg and sperm, even for humans, aren't all the same there's no need to find multiple parents 1 male should have enough genetic difference in his pollen I don't think that will be an issue?

 

[Curbcalamity]

deleted

 

[Curbcalamity]

oh ps my whole aim at this point is simply to find a unique and unfeminized mother for production purposes and to hare something no one else could have since I made it myself. I just can't handle the intersex traits inherent in feminized seeds, nbot for a mother plant but not many seed banks offer any of their best strains unfem

 

[Curbcalamity]

I think i have decided on the following route.
I will take a male black widow from mr nice.
cross it with a barneys farm pineapple chunks
(to find this i will take a 10 pack of seeds keep a cutting of each so i can decide which is the one i want) then i will let the cutting go to flower and either if the male is still alive i will just put them together otherwise ill save the pollen and hand pollinate.
then out of these f1 seeds, I will keep growing them out and flowering 9 at a time till i find a pheno i want, hopefully, in this time frame, i will have found a desirable male amongst these seeds which i will cross with the female i liked.
then i will grow them out 10 at a time till i find mummy. from this point on all males will be killed. females will have a clone taken to preserve for when I hit the jackpot.
HOPEFULLY. ill have about 100 seeds to go through to find mum, 1 should be desirable at least.

does anyone see anything bad likely occuring using this route? I shouldnt? breed to many negative qualities into the plant with only a couple crosses, and the F2's, I know its a shot in the dark, but F1 seeds are really uninteresting gentically speaking. so i think there is no point in trying to produce F1 seeds. like the pea experiment, they're usually either like mumor dad and show little variance from one another.


***EDIT***
plan on taking 10 of each starting strain. one is feminized the other isnt. Mr. Nice says for black widow the male is desirable over the female for breeding purposes. so it seems almost like meant to be. but yeah gonna start with 10 parents. i unfortunatel;y cant do the cross in reverse as barneys farm only offers the variety fem but yeah.

 

[Curbcalamity]

That's not how you get an F₂ generation. For that, you'd cross your two parent stock plants *or two sets of many parent stock plants, since the traits that you really want might not be present in a single pair of potential parent stock's genes in the first place* to get a bunch of F₁ seeds, grow out the seeds, and breed some of those together. The resulting seeds would be the F₂ generation. And their traits would vary - so that would be the ones you'd do your phenotype hunt with. For best results, of course, you'd produce a lot of seeds (each time). Might not seem like it's all that important when you're doing the F₁ generation, but it is, sort of. Then you'd grow out a bunch - or maybe 25 to 50 if you're lacking space/etc., all in the same space, and don't cull males. Or... If you want to ensure the most "mix" in your F₂ generation, you'd hand-collect the pollen from each of your (hopefully) many male plants separately, and pollinate each of your (hopefully) many female plants with pollen from each of your male donors.

EDIT: An additional generation or two might prove to be a good idea, too.

Since you're not interested in fixing traits / stabilizing / etc., you wouldn't need to label each and every permutation - but it is a good idea to make sure that you've got seeds from each and every combination of genetics, maybe 25 to 50, so that you can have a reasonably decent representation of the dice-rolls that each of those permutations would have produced in their offspring. Which wouldn't be every possibility, but I'm assuming you don't have 25 acres for this . But it does sort of illustrate why a person can't just buy packs of seeds and whip up a copy of a "clone-only strain." it's like... Hypothetically, you have a brother and you and your brother marry a pair of sisters. The odds of you (and your wife) and your brother (and his wife) then going on to produce a set of cousins that are, effectively, clones is approximately 1/∞ (that's an infinity symbol, in case it doesn't post correctly). You might get pretty close if you each produce... IDK... 10,000 boy (or girl) children. But even those won't be anywhere near exact.

But every pollen-chucker and his brother the website builder is in the cannabis seed business and each has their own "version" of {strain} that they say is the same as the original . To which, I generally say, "Pull the other one - it's got bells on it." There's a reason that some old-school breeders such as Simon at Serious seeds had a strain library of, what, six or seven strains for a long time - creating even that many, and doing it well, takes a lot of space / time / effort / resources. There's also a reason that, if/when a breeder gets busted or loses his/her stock for some other reason, the "recreations" are almost never the same. Also... there's a reason why I wonder HtH "single seed sales" ever became any kind of viable thing. But I digress.

Anyway, I don't know what your plans are in regards to plant numbers. My recommendation is to grow as many as you can, after producing as many seeds as you can. That might amount to a few hundred, or it might amount to... a few. It's a lottery, yeah? You can't win if you don't play. If you play, you can win - but if you only buy one ticket, your odds of hitting the big jackpot aren't so great.

Oh, and another thing: This selection process need not happen all at once. Grow out as many as you can. Keep the best one (or two) as a mother. Grow out a different set of as many as you can. If one (or two) beats what you kept from round one, it (or they) just replaced the original "keepers" rinse/lather/repeat. Presumably, enjoy some increasingly fine bud all along the way. . . .

Additional EDIT: No, if you're only growing out one pair of potential parent stock plants, there's no real reason why you'd have to hand-pollinate. Place them like this: Oscillating fan - male - female and, sooner or later, you'll have lots of seeds. Maybe several thousand. You'll also know whether you're allergic to cannabis pollen .

don't forget though, when you take a clone, turn it to intersex, and pollinate the starting plant since the chromosome pairs are identical, they tend to just reinforce the genetic traits already found. yes, the weaknesses also you're right ideal scenario it takes 100 of each mum and dad and about 10 years. science can cut that down to 2 but at a cost. keeping in mind that strains we buy have already undergone massive selection processes that mean the seeds we buy, generally have a good chance of having solid genetics....or do i have that wrong?

i get that even trhe retarded males could hit the genetic goldmine but I dont see the purposes of collecting pollen from males that arent showing desirable traits? but yeah for the F1 generation you'd want atleast 100 right> and for the F2 preobably 1000

 

[TorturedSoul]

It just occurred to me that to get the "boring" F₁s you're talking about... you sort of need a pair of "purebred" parents. That's somewhat rare in the cannabis seed vendor world. For example, used to be (and probably still is), the only IBL in Serious Seeds entire stable was Simon's Bubble Gum. That and another one like it would produce an F₁ generation.

Cross a couple mutts, however, and it's a lottery.

 

[Curbcalamity]

It just occurred to me that to get the "boring" F₁s you're talking about... you sort of need a pair of "purebred" parents. That's somewhat rare in the cannabis seed vendor world. For example, used to be (and probably still is), the only IBL in Serious Seeds entire stable was Simon's Bubble Gum. That and another one like it would produce an F₁ generation.

Cross a couple mutts, however, and it's a lottery.

yes but the lotto is occuring with just 1 male plant, its the same reason parents kids are all different. F1 tend to lean to mum or dad, so the idea wht pollinate a feminized F1 pineaplpe chunks with an unfeminized Black Widow (male) then go feno hunting. i contacted dutch passion their strawberry cough is an IBL. but i think IBL strains ahve more intersex traits in them dont they? and long as i dont breed just female parents should be fine shouldnt it? or wil lthe feminized genetics from a starting plant fuckme mover>

mr nice says this bout black widow
"A highly recommended strain for amateur breeders - the male being preferable."

barneys farm ignored me about this qiestion.
dutch passion said this
"hmmm I just really want pineapple weed god damn it.

im basically just trying to get a non-feminized pineapple chuncks

 

[grow boy420]

soooooooooooooo heres my idea for the strain i want to create, before you knock the genetic choices i say poohey, well all have differetn tastes and this is my first attempt at breeding so i just wanted to make sure I will be following the correct technique....
the strain i wanna make is pineapple widow (black widow x pineapple chunks)

ohhh i forgot to add this but I'm just looking to have a mum that's unique. ie, I just want t find 1 pheno I'm happy with not create a new stablized strain

sooooo i had 2 diffferent ideas

firstidea:
cross a pineapple chunks(f) with a black widow (f) to create a bunch of (probably) boring F1 femminized seeds

idea 2:
take a black widow (m) cross with a fem pineapple chunks. to obtain regular F1 seeds. then pick a pheno i like and self it (with a cutting of course) to get F2 fem seeds, then pheno hunt them. or would they no longer have the genetic recombination that occurs with regular F2 seeds? should i just pick a new mum and dad mix then and pheno hunt those?

but if i did want to self it id need to use colloidal silver spray in a concentration that amplifies a laser by orders of magnitude 10 or higher or something around that? (i know how to make my own already - electrolysis)

is there anything i should know about how to select a male breeding parent?
and how do you know which parent would be better suited to breeding? should i maybe start with 2 unfeminized parents?
is there any reason i cant just leave mum and dad alone in a room together? is hand-pollination strictly necessary?
does she give any signs when seeds are ready other than it takes about 2 weeks?

i like your idea! ..but have you taken the time to back cross your base genetics to stabilize the feminized seeds before introducing the new desired male genetics?..i feel like this is the most important step. usually this step takes three back crossings..otherwise you might be chasing your tail as weird varieties of oddities arise..you may not be able to tell the new traits from a non stabilized female genetic program

 

[Curbcalamity]

oh i dont plan on having any idea what genetics the F2's have I will just being using them to p[heno hunt for a girl I like, ill just germ 20 at a time till I find a suitable mum not looking for anything specific just something I like, no I havewnt started yet as I decided the use of the pineapple genetics might be a bit silly as they're probably an F1 themselves. I decided Im going to replace the pineapple with strawberry cough (*dutch passion tell me its basically an IBL now) thgeres nothing specific I'm trying to create, just something different or unique really. but yeah haven't started yet gotta wait till my veg tent goes to flower when I get my AC back

***EDIT*** I decided I'm just going to use Pineapple Haze (F1 Regular) and cross it with itself. that alone should give me nice unique F2's I can search through