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- #21
Calcium versus Magnesium deficiency
I've learned just enough to be dangerous, but I just read a thread that indicated what might've happened. Just a shot in the dark ...and, really, I'm just curious.
Perhaps using a lot of Epsom salts in the beginning, created a reservoir solution saturation point at which time certain elements precipitated out thereby causing a deficiency (or perhaps even an "overdose" of an element). Water can hold only a certain amount of dissolved salts before what's called a "snowstorm" occurs --chemicals precipitate. People who overuse cal-mag, for instance, run the risk of bumping out of the solution a different, very needed, element. Calcium Nitrate is supposed to mitigate that effect.
As I say, I don't have a great grasp on the science of it, but what I read made sense to me as a result of high school chemistry...
I also learned that Maxibloom is a close replication of the Lucas formula. That's exactly why, in my grow, I'm using Flora Nova Bloom from start to finish --it replicated (mostly) the Lucas formula. I'm also using tap water from our well, so the need for cal-mag is negated --I believe.
Perhaps using a lot of Epsom salts in the beginning, created a reservoir solution saturation point at which time certain elements precipitated out thereby causing a deficiency (or perhaps even an "overdose" of an element). Water can hold only a certain amount of dissolved salts before what's called a "snowstorm" occurs --chemicals precipitate. People who overuse cal-mag, for instance, run the risk of bumping out of the solution a different, very needed, element. Calcium Nitrate is supposed to mitigate that effect.
As I say, I don't have a great grasp on the science of it, but what I read made sense to me as a result of high school chemistry...
I also learned that Maxibloom is a close replication of the Lucas formula. That's exactly why, in my grow, I'm using Flora Nova Bloom from start to finish --it replicated (mostly) the Lucas formula. I'm also using tap water from our well, so the need for cal-mag is negated --I believe.
Saibot - You mentioned pest strips hanging... Are these not good to have? I have managed to keep out everything except these big annoying flies.
Getting room ready for my 2nd grow and I'm reading a lot to try and avoid many noob mistakes already made.
Sorry to jump in. Thanks.
Getting room ready for my 2nd grow and I'm reading a lot to try and avoid many noob mistakes already made.
Sorry to jump in. Thanks.
JoetheChro
Well-Known Member
I like the angle you're coming from mate, thinking out of the box is a sign of a good gardener. Keep it up mate
JoetheChro
Well-Known Member
Can someone listen to this man here!!!!
I appreciate the vote of confidence
. I was googling Maxibloom and came across an old thread at IC Mag that was a discussion about the Lucas formula and how chemicals dissolved in water act on and react with each other. There was some exchange having to do with Epsom salts.Wish I could link to the thread....
Epsom salts are very strong. 5ml/gallon of Epsom salts gives me a reading of about 0.8 EC.
The reccomended dose of 5ml/gallon of Botanicare Calmag gives me an EC of about 0.4 if I remember right. Out of that- the magnesium accounts for roughly 0.1 EC.
So, assuming it's all available to the plant, one teaspoon of Epsom salts is roughly eight times the amount of magnesium as a full dose of calmag.
I commonly see people reccomending one tablespoon per gallon- which would seem to be about 20 times the amount needed- and also puts the EC into the burning zone for many plants (younger ones and most sativas).
But - people seem to get away with adding this amount. Any thoughts from the scientificy folks?
The reccomended dose of 5ml/gallon of Botanicare Calmag gives me an EC of about 0.4 if I remember right. Out of that- the magnesium accounts for roughly 0.1 EC.
So, assuming it's all available to the plant, one teaspoon of Epsom salts is roughly eight times the amount of magnesium as a full dose of calmag.
I commonly see people reccomending one tablespoon per gallon- which would seem to be about 20 times the amount needed- and also puts the EC into the burning zone for many plants (younger ones and most sativas).
But - people seem to get away with adding this amount. Any thoughts from the scientificy folks?
Scientific
New Member
Well that was pretty scientificy! As I've said, I don't like the idea of adding all that sulfate. Also, Ca and Mg are in the same period on the periodic table, so I would think that they are very likely to interact biologically (like too much of one throws off the other). And it's my understanding that you want to favor Ca over Mg by a considerable margin. Even dolomite lime favors Mg.
I love the junior scientist aspects of gardening, but lacking a solid background in agronomy and a lab, I pretty much defer to the experts at the fertilizer companies, smart people who know the trade and have been working hard to get the ratios and concentrations right.
Just my scientificy $00.020000.
Skunkworkz
New Member
I'm curious then, only because vein chlorosis is so rare and not a typical indicator of a calcium def. If you're supplementing with calcium I guess time will tell. If you don't mind I'll stick around and see how this grow turns out.
Calcium deficiency while using good nutes is rare. Ca is used to buffer mg in "cal mag" solutions, as mg deficiency is common in cannabis, especially(!!) cannabis grown in coco coir or when RO water is used, while Ca deficiency is fairly uncommon.
Skunkworkz
New Member
Hiya Weas! .
CalMag @ 4ml/gal adds about .4 EC (280ppm) to a nutrient solution. My veg solution runs 1.6-1.7 on average (GenHydro 3-Part nutes) & I never have lockout or burn issues.
If someone is using coco, the trick is to ALWAYS premix the coco using 6.0ph nutes + CalMag @ 4ml/gal. 7-10 days before use, so the coco has time to set, & the cal/mg has time to buffer in the coco. If people mix & use same day, then the mg deficiency shows in the plants pretty much immediately, and HARD, & takes about 2.5 weeks to correct. So, pre-mixing, early, saves a lot of hassle. Then simply feed reg. Veg cycle nutes + 3-4ml/gal CalMag for 3 weeks or so, then delete. Easy peasy.
For clones/seedlings, 1/2 strength veg nutes + 2ml/gal CalMag @ 1.0 EC until a strong root system has developed, to avoid lockout/burn.
Reading what noobs "do" around here makes me wince but unfortunately there's no filter for shite "advice" hereabouts, so they'll have to live & learn I guess. .
️** As to "Ca issues" see my last post, above-it rarely happens.
Cannabis Plant and Pest Problem Solver - Pictorial
A quote from this thread: "Magnesium is one of the easiest deficiencies to tell... the green veins along with the yellowness of the entire surrounding leave is a dead giveaway." Vein chlorosis does not indicate Mag deficiency.
So much for the poor "noobs" who don't know what they're doing!!
Skunkworkz
New Member
My error, re the use of "vein chlorosis." Fixed.
Skunkworkz
New Member
With the easily corrected exception of the misuse of a term, my advice was exactly 100% spot on, as is my observation that shite advice here is proliferate. Therefore your above statement is incorrect. Noobs still don't know what they're doing & tend to take shite advice from people who should be reading more & "helping" less.
I don't question your knowledge, except for that "small bit of easily corrected misuse of a term", what I question is your arrogance.
OldMedUser
Formerly Known as LabRat
I think you might have a bit of a misconception about what mobile and immobile actually mean and how it affects the plants. If I'm wrong about that please forgive an old man's ramblings. It might be me misinterpreting what you have written.
The mobile nutrients are the NPK trio, Mg and Zn. Everything else is immobile. That you already know but what it means is what I think you may have a little problem with.
Because Ca is immobile once it has been used and taken it's place in the plant it is fixed and cannot be used elsewhere by the plant. So when it becomes deficient through whatever means the newer growth begins to suffer first. The old fan leaves have their Ca all locked in and remain unaffected until the deficiency is advanced and most of the rest of the plant is pretty much dead.
Mg and other mobile nutes can be moved to where they are needed most by the plant which is the newest and faster growing portions of the plants. That's why when any of those are deficient the oldest fan leaves tend show it first. It's also why leaves affected by mobile deficiencies can green up again because the nutrients can be replaced while immobile nutes can't.
In general, if old leaves are showing signs of deficiency trouble there's something wrong with the mobile nutes and if the tops are going wonky it's something to do with the immobile nutes.
I was checking out my grow bibles and some other stuff but have no idea why you are getting yellow veins. Are they really going yellow or is it just the spaces between them going darker? A lot of those leaves look like the ones on my OG#18 plants before they went completely dark purple. I'm in the middle of harvesting them now. I wasn't thinking of them as yellowing in the veins.
This is a pretty good deficiency chart and helps to figure out ones that look similar but have differences that can help pinpoint which is which with the different clues in it. Still isn't good enough but better than most I've seen.
- Thread starter
- #36
Zinc is also an immobile nutrient, though a few sources claim it's mobile.
Calcium can be used elsewhere by the plant, just not where the plant has developed a deficiency in those affected leaves.
In earlier years I did have the odd magnesium deficiency, which cleared up quite quickly with epsom salts, but not so on this occasion.
That too was with this same type of hydroponics. On closer inspection after it didn't clear up with the Epsom, I noticed the lack of colour was in the viens and not between them. So the difference prompted me to ask, what it could be.
I had always wondered why some hydroponic nutrients contain as much as 50% Calcium Nitrate. Seems like a lot, but I guess Calcium is fairly important, particularly when it's carbonate form can't be broken down in hydro media, not without microbial activity like in soil.. so any calcium carbonate in the water supply isn't going to be in an available form.
I never had these problems in soil.. If you're a soil grower, it's unlikely that you'll ever have this issue.
Further info:
Knowing nutrient mobility is helpful in diagnosing plant nutrient deficiencies |
MSU Extension
Calcium can be used elsewhere by the plant, just not where the plant has developed a deficiency in those affected leaves.
In earlier years I did have the odd magnesium deficiency, which cleared up quite quickly with epsom salts, but not so on this occasion.
That too was with this same type of hydroponics. On closer inspection after it didn't clear up with the Epsom, I noticed the lack of colour was in the viens and not between them. So the difference prompted me to ask, what it could be.
I had always wondered why some hydroponic nutrients contain as much as 50% Calcium Nitrate. Seems like a lot, but I guess Calcium is fairly important, particularly when it's carbonate form can't be broken down in hydro media, not without microbial activity like in soil.. so any calcium carbonate in the water supply isn't going to be in an available form.
I never had these problems in soil.. If you're a soil grower, it's unlikely that you'll ever have this issue.
Further info:
Knowing nutrient mobility is helpful in diagnosing plant nutrient deficiencies |
MSU Extension
OldMedUser
Formerly Known as LabRat
My grow bibles for cannabis plants say Zinc is mobile and Ca isn't. Might not be the same for other plants so your link doesn't really fit this scenario. They're talking about vegetables.
None of my AN nutes contain 50% calcium nitrate but I have 2 - 5gal pails of it if you need some. Asked the mud man at an oil rig I was working on for a bit and when I got back to my trailer after spraying down the ice road to the rig there was the 2 pails full. I was hoping for maybe a coffee can full.
None of my AN nutes contain 50% calcium nitrate but I have 2 - 5gal pails of it if you need some. Asked the mud man at an oil rig I was working on for a bit and when I got back to my trailer after spraying down the ice road to the rig there was the 2 pails full. I was hoping for maybe a coffee can full.
- Thread starter
- #38
Bibles are great sources of sciencey info.. Zinc will be more mobile if there's the right amount of Phosphorus.
Calcium nitrate is best sought in a prilled-granule form, otherwise it tends to melt away into an icey slurry from a bit of humidity. Well that's been my experience anyway.. that and drying it out on disposable roasting trays in the sun.
AN micro is around 50% Calcium, less water. More if using Calmag.
Calcium nitrate is best sought in a prilled-granule form, otherwise it tends to melt away into an icey slurry from a bit of humidity. Well that's been my experience anyway.. that and drying it out on disposable roasting trays in the sun.
AN micro is around 50% Calcium, less water. More if using Calmag.
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