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copperrein

Photo of the Month: Mar 2021
Oh I get it!

And no not all acids work as well for ph'ing. There was a great discussion on it in PK's journal awhile back (I'll see if I can dig it up).

Edit- so my memory is off a bit- I remembered it for wrong reason, however somehow I think you're going to find it interesting and useful!

Here's the link:
Post in thread 'PK Perpetual Grow Journal 2020' PK Perpetual Grow Journal 2020
Oh see...there's another grow gone awry featuring mega crop :D I might have to try it just to see what all the hub bub is about!

I also just read that citric acid is a chelating agent. CALLING ALL CHEM MAJORS!

As my now fairly baked brain understands it, chelators are used to get stuff like zinc and dun dun dddddduuuuun, phosphorous...to play nice with various organic systems.

I am picturing the following in my head: I dump citric acid into my res. pH goes down. All those nutes I measured out oh so carefully start getting their metal salts ripped off and turned into chelates. pH rises again, I freak out and pH down....and the cycle repeats.

I've sent a message to a fireworks guru chemical engineer friend. I always forget that some of the weirdos in my 'rare and questionable' collection of friends are actual functioning adults with college degrees beyond a BS :D
 

Weaselcracker

Nug of the Year: 2016 - Member of the Month: Sept 2015, Nov 2016 - Nug of the Month: Oct 2016 - Plant of the Month: May 2016 - Photo of the Month: Nov 2020
I'm starting to wonder if not all acids are created equal?

Here is a comment from Daniel Fernandez- a hydroponic nutrient expert whose blog I follow.


“if you adjust pH with citric acid you will notice that it will bounce back very quickly and often more aggressively. Despite the fact that citrate ions provide a chemical buffer, citrate is taken up aggressively by both plants and bacteria and, when they do, the pH goes up a ton. It is not a good pH down for this reason”

You can probably find his blog fairly easily with his name and a search using the term ‘hydroponics’ but the broken link hint to where to find it is here

scienceinhydroponics dot com


He’s got an amazing resource of short articles - you can do a search and probably find answers to your ph adjusting questions.
But no the coco and the perlite themselves should not affect your ph. Well maybe the coco a bit as it’s in the ph neutral range. So I’m not 100% certain about the coco.

But not the perlite which should be truly inert.
 
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copperrein

Photo of the Month: Mar 2021
Here is a comment from Daniel Fernandez- a hydroponic nutrient expert whose blog I follow.


“if you adjust pH with citric acid you will notice that it will bounce back very quickly and often more aggressively. Despite the fact that citrate ions provide a chemical buffer, citrate is taken up aggressively by both plants and bacteria and, when they do, the pH goes up a ton. It is not a good pH down for this reason”

You can probably find his blog fairly easily with his name and a search using the term ‘hydroponics’ but the broken link hint to where to find it is here

scienceinhydroponics dot com


He’s got an amazing resource of short articles - you can do a search and probably find answers to your ph adjusting questions.
But no the coco and the perlite themselves should not affect your ph. Well maybe the coco a bit as it’s in the ph neutral range. So I’m not 100% certain about the coco.

But not the perlite which should be truly inert.
Thank you sir! (hope you're doing as well as possible)

Thank you, I shall stalk that person in a moment.

Since I'm journaling here and on HGCC I'm just going to cut and paste this week's entry there:

Ok so, in an attempt to 1.) eliminate the extra phosphorous potentially added to my system through the use of phosphoric acid (the stuff many pH down products are) I changed things up this grow and started with citric acid. Normally in DWC I'd see drift from 5.8 to 6 over the first few days and then a steady drop until res change.

Using citric acid I initially pH'd to 5.4ish allowing for my basic well water still in the system and not in the res to cycle through. 3 hours or so later I was up in the 6+ range. Before going to bed last night I pH'd down with citric acid to 5.4 again. At this point my runoff was reading 6.4.This morning...the res is back up to 7. I go down a rabbit hole of science and highschool chem and I chicken little my butt in front of all the guru growers I know and the consensus is the citric acid is the issue. Why though?

Here's what I vaguely understand about the science (please correct me and educate me if I'm off on my thinking):

Citric acid is a weak acid. Not weak like won't ruin your day at pH 1.5, but weak as in lacks a massive difference in charges in associated ions. I take this to mean it breaks down really quickly in water. Citric acid also forms chelates, which means it bonds to stuff like calcium and iron to make them more water soluble. This is great if I were using it to make my own dry nutes....not so good for pH down :D

Good lord this was an unpleasant experience. I'll dig in deeper next time before frivolously ad-libbing during a grow.

ANYHOO....

All three ladies are looking fine. I'll keep monitoring pH but I've gone with phosphoric acid now. My EC has rose to 1.0. I don't feel like increasing nutes or even trying to replenish what I may have burned through while adjusting pH. The little ladies should be good for a couple days with a weak nutrient solution. At this stage the cotyledon should still be feeding them.


My brain is used up for the day. Thank you, @Weaselcracker for replying. I need to medicate a bit and come back to this. I over shot my P acid pH adjustment and we're sitting at 4.9. Not too worried because of the coco but I'll watch it.
 

copperrein

Photo of the Month: Mar 2021
Well well well, pH has stabilized at around 6.5 which from what I'm reading isn't terrible for a coco grow. Thank you, phosphoric acid!

I went down a bit of a rabbit hole last night trying to reverse engineer some of the more popular root boosters and now know how to turn ammonia nitrate into ammonium nitrate.

The tent girls are alive and seem to be well. I got a really nice photo this morning with the actual camera:

 

copperrein

Photo of the Month: Mar 2021
Heeey, lookie there! To hell with you, citric acid!


Plants are happy. I'll give them a few more days before starting to push nutrients. I'd like to try what I see many of y'all doing with one month veg and then right to flower.

Edit: sorry for the gross hand shot. It looks like some flaccid invertebrate sea creature.
 

Rider509

Well-Known Member
This is the most interesting start to a journal I’ve ever read. I like how your character comes through honestly. And your willingness/desire to dig in to understand the science behind a problem is refreshing. I like your brain. I’m going to keep you around.
 

copperrein

Photo of the Month: Mar 2021
Ok, I've seen a lot of people complaining about BESTVA and shipping times. I think I might have some idea of why they're having a hard time getting stock in:

The Spring Festival / Chinese New Year was restricted this year in terms of travel within their country but the 'federal holiday'/shabbat/mandatory observance period where non-essential businesses shut down for the holiday was longer this year by 10 days.

Tariffs imposed by Trump at the beginning of his tantrum term affected everything moving from China into the US. Smaller companies based in China are getting their asses kicked on shipping to the US.

US sea ports are running at very limited capacity thanks to terrible management of covid here. There's just not enough people to work them.

I'm cutting and pasting a text hunk from one of the pyro industry sites BUT they word all the stuff better than I can:

  • US Port Delays
As of this blog post ships full of containers are wandering in the ocean off California waiting to doc. There is a tremendous back log as the ports are short on workers due to the pandemic. Unfortunately, that shortage extends into the entire supply chain from rail and freight. What normally takes about 2 weeks to receive a container once it hits the port is now taking up to 2 months. This problem is not unique to the fireworks industry. Now more than ever consumers are shopping at Amazon, Walmart, and other big retailers online in the comfort of their homes. As retailers are seeing diminished stock, they are submitting some of the largest orders in history. With a depleted supply chain, it’s causing a traffic jam of epic proportions. Specifically, for consumer firework retailers, containers must be shipped by early April or its likely they won’t be delivered in time for the July 4th season which is devastating because the July the 4th season accounts for 60 to 100% of yearly gross revenues.

  • Limited space on shipping vessels
Delivering your container once it hits the port is one thing, but actually getting it on the boat and shipping it to the US is growing more worrisome by the day. Shipping vessels can only set aside a small amount of space to ship hazardous materials. Since consumer demand is at an all-time high, space for any consumer goods is extremely limited. Of the limited space available for consumer fireworks TNT has a pact with the Chinese government and therefore 50% of the limited shipping space is monopolized by one company. As a result, many importers, wholesalers, and retailers are worried that the product won’t arrive until after the 4th this year and this has created a bidding war to get companies’ orders shipped before the window of opportunity passes.

  • Shortage of shipping containers
With a dramatic increase in demand from China, retailers are experiencing severe delays in transit times. Unfortunately, this means that many of the containers needed to fill orders from China are tied up in the US. The fact is there is a huge trade imbalance with China, so the containers are sitting in the US waiting to be filled with US goods to be exported. However, with little exports shipping to China, empty containers are piling up in the US. With no empty containers available in China fireworks can’t be shipped to the US.

  • Short production season
With product piling up and hitting capacity in the factory warehouses due to the logistical issues stated above, factories were forced to close 10 days early this year for Chinese New Year. This means when the factories open back up in March importers/retailers will only have four weeks to get product produced and shipped in order to receive it in time. A shorter than usual production season means certain products will not be manufactured and other fireworks will have lower supply quantities. Combine that with the largest orders in consumers fireworks history because of historic inventory lows at wholesaler warehouses, Chinese factories will not be able to meet demand.

  • Bidding wars
Its not a secret that China’s economic activities are somewhat scrupulous, and you can get just about anything you want if you’re willing to pay the price. With historic demand shipping has become a bidding war with various importers willing to pay as much as 200% to 300% more in shipping costs just to ensure their product finds its way onto a shipping vessel in time for the July 4th season. As we get closer to the season there is no doubt that the war will rage on and shipping costs will only escalate.

  • Value of the US Dollar
Unfortunately, the flood of economic relief and stimulus in the US had devalued the US dollar. With the pandemic still raging in the US, we have had a much more difficult recovery than China. So far in 2021 COVID-19 has had little impact on the Chinese economy. As a result, the US dollar has weakened against the Yen. Further weakening is expected moving forward driving up product costs about 10-15% over what was expected in 2020.

Point is I believe BESTVA is just having a shit time of it getting their product over from China. Every interaction I've had with them so far has been positive, they just seem incredibly overwhelmed.
 

copperrein

Photo of the Month: Mar 2021
Coco's pretty amazing. @Prescription Blend is more amazing, tho. Just the packaging has made res change sooooo so so much cleaner and less wasteful. I loath nutrient bottles. They dribble more than 90's Vinnie Johnson. @Prescription Blend doesn't dribble. It's also easier to get a precise pour into a graduated cylinder on the first go.

Yes I know there are other ways to work with bottled nutes but why should I have to dirty more containers and make a mess? I really like the little pour spout on the PB system. Also the kelp stuff smells like a cold seashore in the winter <3 I might just use it as parfume :D







These are growing incredibly fast. So much so I'm seriously considering taking over a spare room as a grow space just for these girls. Thank you Homegrown Cannabis Co for the seeds, I'm still besides myself at scoring a sponsorship from you guys <3

The BESTVA 1000 seems to be providing enough light to all three to keep them short and tight. It's sitting at 18" from the center plant.

My whole setup this time in infinitely more hands off than the last one thanks to the coco controlling pH and buffering nutes (I think...my understanding of HOW coco works is still weak). OH....and no hauling 5 gallon buckets of solution! Woo!

I love all of you and I am trying to keep up with my posts but more of my time is being taken up by the retail fireworks than expected and I feel like an ass for being kind of ghosty on here. :< Hugs?

:love: :48:
 

copperrein

Photo of the Month: Mar 2021
Wait...I just went back and looked at when I dropped the seeds...it's been 19 days?

That doesn't seem right....should they be this big? OMG AM I DOING IT RIGHT? No f'ing way. I dropped them on April 15th....that's 19 days >.>

checks math again

holy hell

Am I doing good? Like...is this normal for a grow?
 

Rexer

Member of the Month: April 2021
Lookin good Copperrein! When you get things dialed in right- the growth can be fantastic.
Hope things go good for you with your business- that's food on the table and nobody would begrudge you for prioritizing that.
:Namaste:
 

DutchinAB

Well-Known Member
Looks to be right about where they should be, happy, healthy and green. They should explode with growth for you in the coming weeks!!
:thumb:

And good luck with the shipping from overseas, I imagine it will take a long while to get back to normal.
 

Weaselcracker

Nug of the Year: 2016 - Member of the Month: Sept 2015, Nov 2016 - Nug of the Month: Oct 2016 - Plant of the Month: May 2016 - Photo of the Month: Nov 2020
Hopefully not one of those thousands of containers they’ve lost overboard lately. Maybe some castaway on a desert island somewhere will be delighted to receive a shipping container full of grow lights -can use them to build a roof for shade to escape the sun
 
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Rider509

Well-Known Member
Wait...I Am I doing good? Like...is this normal for a grow?
It is for me! :laugh2:

2BB04701-EAFF-4D11-8AD7-CC5D34401C0F.jpeg
 

StoneOtter

Member of the Month: July 2019, Sept 2020 - Grow Journal of the Month: Nov 2019 - Plant of the Month: April 2020

copperrein

Photo of the Month: Mar 2021
Go Copper! Hydro is amazing to watch! Looks like the Bestva Light is performing well too!
Right? @GrowTina that little light IS doing pretty nicely!

Question for the community: PEX vs brass hardware in nutrient solutions:

I know brass can be easily eaten by a myriad of things. Anyone had issues with it? I know nothing about newer plastics or whatever...is PEX ok? It just looks like ABS to me. I'm assuming since it's being sold for motorhome potable water systems it's safe for the plants....but is it gonna last?

I dicked about with streamlining the reservoir drain side of my system and want to just leave an outlet pipe attached all the time. I figure a diverter valve would work instead of two shutoffs.

I just really don't want to have some cheap plastic crap fall apart one morning and soak the room.

Also if someone knows of an organic chemist on here I have some non-cannabis questions regarding dextrin as a molecule.

 

Rexer

Member of the Month: April 2021
PEX should be just fine. It's rated for household water systems as well (I have some in my house).

Brass- I'd be interested in hearing others thoughts, I always stayed away for fear of leaching the brass into my solution
 

copperrein

Photo of the Month: Mar 2021
@StoneOtter I really need to get up to Lansing and check out the local HTG (that seems like the Home Depot of growing?). I meant to hit an event they hosted for 420 but I uh....got a little too medicated and forgot :D

@Rexer <3 I'll stay away from brass, then.

We're supposed to get a huge system in with rain and lightning. Not sure if I'm going to even bother opening the fireworks tent today. Not totally crushed.

pH in the reservoir is sitting happily at 5.9. No drift. No swings. I'm a coco convert, I think. What issues are common in coco? What should I be looking out for? I feel like this is going too easily and it's making me concerned.

The BESTVA p1000w appears to be providing enough light to all three plants. Dream Queen is a smaller plant according to Homegrown's grow profile:

"Unlike many Sativa-leaning plants, Steve's Dream Queen only grows to between 3 and 4 feet tall. It produces small, dense buds tightly clustered together in a typical Indica fashion, and its flowers are covered in striking, rust-colored pistils and milky-white trichomes. The buds have a sticky texture and a glistening, vibrant appearance that helps them stand out against the pale green leaves."


I've moved and tweaked the light to favor Dream Queen, thinking that it wasn't getting enough but now wonder if it's just the genetics?

ANYHOO....photos

Little Dream Queen

Maracuya and Sweet Island:



ROOT PORN <3 <3 <3



and a family photo:



(that's a jug of pH down....not pee. Promise)
 

copperrein

Photo of the Month: Mar 2021
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