Decoding The Holy Grail: Terpene & Cannabinoid Retention - Decarb to Extraction

Thread starter #1

SweetSue

Member of the Year: 2015 & 2016 - Member of the Month: Mar 2015, Sept 2016 - Nug of the Month: Oct 2017 - Creme de la Creme Photos: Dec 2016


Kicknitup1 said:
Best Practices

Cannabutter/Oil Extraction Methods,For Terpene and Cannabinoid Retention


Hi everyone! This is our version of a sing-along. A couple of the members will soon be running some lab tests on an extraction process with coconut oil. The goal is to lab profile the starting material and then lab test at several points along the way. We wil be looking for terpene retention and extraction efficiency.

We are asking anyone to post any lab results you may have involving an oil solvent extraction (Olive, Coconut, Butter, etc). Your experience may guide us with the test points. Have you encountered any mysteries? Start out with 500 mg THC and end up with 200 mg? Potency increase/decrease next day? What disasters have you had? Show us the way...to the opposite direction! LOL. Success stories always welcome. Both are beneficial.

So basically, we will help you solve your riddles while you guide us around our upcoming ones. Then we will share our results when complete. Should be some eye-opening stuff, don't you think? We are particularly interested in info on Nightmare Cookies.

Let's have some fun and learn along the way.​

One of the most frustrating parts of producing potent cannabis oils and products is understanding the decarboxylation process. How long is optimal for THC conversion? CBD conversion? How long is too long? What's being destroyed? What makes it through? Are there ways to manage the decarb for a more varied cannabinoid and terpene profile?

We now understand that the terpenes direct the action of the cannabinoids. This means it's the terpenes that define the effect. THC and CBD are a power couple of cannabinoids, but terpenes tell them how to apply that power. We can assume this happy partnership carries over to what we call "minor cannabinoids," the ones we simply haven't studied as closely.

Knowing this, it becomes advantageous to retain as much of the volitile terpene profile as possible, within reason, and we've dedicated a couple brainstorming threads to creating cannabis and cannabis products that have a more pronounced terpene profile.

Most of us are kitchen alchemist, happily turning our beloved plants into potent oils or butters for culinary and medicinal uses. Getting the decarb correct is of great importance when you're going to introduce cannabinoids through the gut. If your medical needs call for a high THC medicine you want to be reasonably certain you're getting maximum decarboxylation of THCa. The same can be said for CBDa.

A pair of our members, Canyon and Kicknitup1, will be joining forces for a few days next month and do their best to get at least some of the basic questions about decarbing answered. Here's a further breakdown of what they plan to do during this adventure, in Kicknitup's own words: (I did some formatting :3:)

Kicknitup1 said:
Let's see.
short version, verify, verify, verify. lol

We will know the properties of the starting mtl

Then I will compare decarb results between the jar in oven & Nova (oven will be 15 min jar warm up and then 1 hr decarb @ 240f & cool down). (or 220f if there is a consensus but I think 240 is the #) via lab test.

Then determine optimum extraction times. Testing @ 1hr, 1.5 hr & 2 hr, &... (6 hr because High Times thinks so) @150-165f. Personally, I bet you have almost all @ 2 hr. (testing will be with tcheck until we get to the final, then lab).

Then compare properties that made it into the oil vs starting mtl

I had planned on doing a terpene test on the oil unless we find out beforehand that terpenes just will not be there.

Also check efficiency of extraction by comparing oil labs to starting mtl labs.

For once we will know with no bias from someone selling a product what makes it into the oil & at what efficiency.

I will be verifying the accuracy of the tcheck also.
These tests will be with LSL & coconut oil. Not using olive for this. I had rather stick with what I know for the testing. As far as testing, there should be no difference for olive oil results.

Then we will do our own verification...by eating them. Haven't heard much about Canyon's wife yet but assuming she's on board, we will have a 3 person panel...of happy judges. I individually dose these things so everyone can hit their comfort level.

Nut shell:
* verify starting mtl
* verify decarb
* verify extraction optimums
* verify equipment reliability
* Verify oil quality from 2 kinds of decarb
Canyon is generously providing the residence for the testing project to be carried out, and he's graciously included some of his magnificent produce in the package, assuring a final product of high quality. I'll let him explain his part in this enterprise in his own words.

Canyon said:
We started setting up this project about three weeks ago. So far I have set aside around two oz of low-n-slow dried Nightmare Cookies. I took the best nine colas, then took the top 6 or 7 inches of them and discarded the least impressive buds to help keep a consistent potency. (Well they did not go in the trash.) Then, I chose parts of buds from 4 colas. Each one was chosen from further down the stem. The lab ground them up and homogenized it before testing. Those tests are back.

My contribution will be the material, a spare bedroom and access to a testing lab.

The main focus of this round will be Kicknitup's project. However, I hope to put his tCheck to good use while he is here.

I do not know if the timing will work but I would like to do some work with fresh harvest oil. The plant may be in the frig by then though.

Another mystery that I want to explore is, will the higher boiling points in a pressure cooker reduce terpene loss or will the heat degrade it at the same rate as an oven decarb?

The first day that we will actually take over my wife’s kitchen will be August 16th and we will run tests through the 20st. The idea is to use the lead time to solicit ideas and information from anyone who wants to participate and incorporate those into what we are doing if we can.
We have lab results of the beginning plant material. Canyon sent this sample to the lab with a friend who confused the name of the specimen. That explains Canyon's notation that the specimen had been tested as Extreme OG.





Our hope, as articulated by both participants, is to generate any input that you think might help them avoid wasting their time with tests you already know aren't worth it, or questions you'd like to see answered. This is but the beginning of the exploration, and the powerful way we brainstorm on this site offers great potential to get decarb nailed down so that we can proceed with our potent infused oils, edibles, and butters, secure in the knowledge that we're coming close to the mark.

So, how can we help you, and how can you help our intrepid lab rats? Feel free to jump into the conversation. There are no guidelines other than respectful participation, one of the hallmarks of our wonderful site.

And again, any information you might have on Nightmare Cookies will be greatly appreciated. :4:

We can't start a thread without some pretty pictures, can we? A couple shots of the sacrificial lamb, Canyon's recently harvested Nightmare Cookies.



 
This is exciting stuff!

Many thanks for starting the thread Sue, and to Canyon and Kicknitup1 for rolling up their lab coat sleeves.
 

Kicknitup1

Well-Known Member
Isn't she a beauty! Thank you Canyon!!! And thank you SweetSue for formatting a new topic! Thanks in advance for everyones' support. We will definitely have some answers soon. But we need guidance from everyone's personal experiences before we start. Testing is expensive. We would rather not duplicate perfectly good work that has already been done. So, does anyone have any decarb tests or, MORE importantly, lab tests on coconut, olive or butter extractions? We have about 2 weeks before we start. Tick,Tick....
 

Skullman420

Well-Known Member
subbing up :)
 

Chris Scorpio

Well-Known Member
Now just an observation that Created a Question For me @SweetSue @Kicknitup1 @Canyon

I dont see any CBD in the Nightmare Cookies. Are we assuming they will react the same in the decarb process, or, will we plan a Test on a Higher CBD strain in the future, I assume the later is the case

Excited to watch, learn and Help if I can:cheer::cheer::cheer:
 
Thread starter #9

SweetSue

Member of the Year: 2015 & 2016 - Member of the Month: Mar 2015, Sept 2016 - Nug of the Month: Oct 2017 - Creme de la Creme Photos: Dec 2016
Now just an observation that Created a Question For me @SweetSue @Kicknitup1 @Canyon

I dont see any CBD in the Nightmare Cookies. Are we assuming they will react the same in the decarb process, or, will we plan a Test on a Higher CBD strain in the future, I assume the later is the case

Excited to watch, learn and Help if I can:cheer::cheer::cheer:
Decarb of CBD follows a similar timeline, although it runs a tad slower. The primary concern with this attempt is to determine THC conversions and to see if we can find ways to retain terps.
 

Canyon

Well-Known Member
First things first, Sue has downplayed her contribution as usual. This would never have gotten beyond talk without her energy. The opening write up is hers. She found the time to organize our confusing thoughts into something enjoyable to read.

Testing is rather new to me. I have only had five samples tested so far. Logistics and cash flow has kept me from ordering more. The closest lab is in Albuquerque and I am just short of 300 miles away, though I am up there often.

Terpene tests come back rather quickly but cannabinoid test can take as much as three days. This is going to rule out any intermediate tests results other than the Tcheck. That is a big part of why we wanted to open the thread before we started any tests.

We have only committed to a small number of lab tests to start with. However, we should be able to take a rather large number of samples for a kitchen project. When we finish testing, we can decide which samples are worth keeping for future testing. If you have something you think is worth trying, post it. The idea is to get some ideas to try and see if anyone can add information before we start.

My chemistry background consists of remembering that the girl I was teamed up with as a junior in HS was really cute. That was 1964-65. I do have a friend that had enough in college to understand what he is reading. Any input on the chemistry side is welcome.

This should be fun.
 

Canyon

Well-Known Member
Now just an observation that Created a Question For me @SweetSue @Kicknitup1 @Canyon

I dont see any CBD in the Nightmare Cookies. Are we assuming they will react the same in the decarb process, or, will we plan a Test on a Higher CBD strain in the future, I assume the later is the case

Excited to watch, learn and Help if I can:cheer::cheer::cheer:
The 'No CBD detedted' caught me off guard. That was the plant I had ready. I have enough interest in high CBD plants to have two strains in veggie now. They need a few months before flowering though. I had an Express Test ($40 quick test and you get your stash back) run on the Shark Shock strain. It may be worth some testing around Christmas if there are still questions about maximizing the CBDA to CBD conversion.

The lack of any tested cannabinoids other than the 0.76% of CBGA that has not converted to THCA is interesting. The lack of THC should keep the decarb testing simple.

This is what the $40 test looks like. There is not much information included.

 

Chris Scorpio

Well-Known Member
The 'No CBD detedted' caught me off guard. That was the plant I had ready. I have enough interest in high CBD plants to have two strains in veggie now. They need a few months before flowering though. I had an Express Test ($40 quick test and you get your stash back) run on the Shark Shock strain. It may be worth some testing around Christmas if there are still questions about maximizing the CBDA to CBD conversion.

The lack of any tested cannabinoids other than the 0.76% of CBGA that has not converted to THCA is interesting. The lack of THC should keep the decarb testing simple.

This is what the $40 test looks like. There is not much information included.

I'd be interested to see how CBD reacts
And a nice 1/1 strain would be a great option to see how they both, THC & CBD, react together during the processes

I'm excited, I get my home THC/CBD test kits next week, so fits in with what I'm doing as well
 

TorturedSoul

Member of the Month: May 2009, Oct 2010, Sept 2017
Thanks again for the thread!

REMEMBER that I... occasionally start to ramble, so PLEASE feel free to give me a gentle nudge (or a slap that uses the vast majority of your muscles, if need be) if that becomes annoying. I have thick skin - and these kinds of threads are important!

BtW, the thought has occurred to me that those lab analysis reports that breeders publish may not be entirely representative of a strain. I'm guessing that they didn't just grab a random gram of a random bud and send it to the lab - that, instead, they cherry-picked. Or possibly even sent multiple samples and published the one with the highest numbers. They're selling product, after all. So I look at those things as an optimum best-case scenario. But that's my opinion, and I have no facts to reference on the subject.
 

ShiggityFlip

Member of the Month: Jan 2016, Aug 2017 - Nug of the Month: June 2017 - Photo of the Month: Sept 2016
So excited for this test. I don't have access to potency tests so this will make it easy to adjust my decarb regimen. I really want to thank all involved in this: Sue, Canyon, and Kickinitup1 you are going to help a lot of people and do it showing results from real data. I'm grinning ear to ear for this thread.
 
Thread starter #19

SweetSue

Member of the Year: 2015 & 2016 - Member of the Month: Mar 2015, Sept 2016 - Nug of the Month: Oct 2017 - Creme de la Creme Photos: Dec 2016
Just stopping in to see who's been attracted by curiosity, and I couldn't be more pleased to see all these brilliant brains ready to play. :5:
 

Lady Dory

Well-Known Member
Just stopping in to see who's been attracted by curiosity, and I couldn't be more pleased to see all these brilliant brains ready to play. :5:
Hi Sue, just found this and I'm curious! Looking forward to reading about what all the brain-power has to say!

:party:


The adventure begins...
Dory