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Defoliation opinions

SamSmith

Well-Known Member
Your missing the point of air flow and light penetration which is severely limited in small restrictive spaces like tents. Mold is very real in a tent when things get crowded. When the canopy is so dense that light doesn't penetrate deep into the plant the stuff down low is not going to develop into much worth saving.

Per your own admission you are not growing in a restrictive environment. I assume a green house outdoors where airflow isn't restriced and you have enough indirect light hitting all sections of the plant. In an environment like that I wouldn't mess with them either.

You can write it off as bro science if that is how you want to discredit me. Please show me the science where defoliation leads to hermied plants when the plants a healthy.

If you're open minded and look at the really good growers on the forum most defoliate after the stretch to remove the crap that won't reach the canopy. They recover just fine.

I am done trying to help here. I would bet on the OP having issues in that 3X3 if he doesn't keep on top of it. Ultimately I really don't care. It's not my grow. I will keep doing what I am doing and walking away from consistant harvest like the one I posted picture of.
 

bobrown14

Grow Journal of the Month: Dec 2017 - Photo of the Month: May 2020
Not trying to discredit.. I just asked a simple question.

All you're saying is someone does it so it must work. That's what we call anecdotal evidence.

I don't do it so it must work. OK....

Show me some science that defoliation helps with yields OR plant health OR anything helpful really.

Removing biomass on plants (leaf defoliation) = stunted growth. Thats just the science.

Look it up.
 

nickeluring

Well-Known Member
Hi @cr8grow , your plants look beautiful.
Had you been a more experienced grower, and if you had answered yes to the following question: "Are you positive that you can bring these girls to the end of flower without causing any feeding issues? I.e. when you know when to give them what, when, and how much without risking lockouts or overfeeds."
Then I would say - yes, defoliate the crap out of them. Remove all fan leaves, with a noticeable stem, that blocks light on anything below. Leave a couple of fan leaves at the top of each cola. A few can be left at the bottom of the plant, but the large and old ones should go. Then keep the colas tidy by picking fan leaves as soon as they block any light below until the plant stop creating new fan leaves.
This is my advise to experienced growers. I do this myself and since I started doing this my yields are heavier and stickier than ever.

But, as this is your second grow, I would only advice you to do the full on defoliation if you'd be ready to risk getting less yield. If something goes wrong it can go south quickly since the plant doesn't have as much defence without all that foliage.

In any case I would defoliate lightly and make sure that all bud sites get some light.
 

bobrown14

Grow Journal of the Month: Dec 2017 - Photo of the Month: May 2020
Flowers don't need direct sunlight to get bigger and better.

Translocation is a thing..... In fact flowers that are lower than the top colas have higher THC content. Thats been proven with testing.

Here's something cool to think about:

"Translocation is the movement of materials from leaves to other tissues throughout the plant. Plants produce carbohydrates (sugars) in their leaves by photosynthesis, but nonphotosynthetic parts of the plant also require carbohydrates and other organic and nonorganic materials. "

Flowers have very little in the ability to photosynthesize so why do they need to be in the light?? Flowers are there to produce seed not photosynthesis.
 

Scottylikesbud

Well-Known Member
Great point never thought of it that way there bud. Makes sense. As I was reading this thread about light and what not started thinking of what I learned in school about jungles and how they have different plants growing in different depths from the light canopy, to the jungle floor, where there is lil to no direct light. And them plants Still Be growing. But yes my last harvest them lower growths were very slow but surely building mass, and sticky lovelyness. They may not look as good visually As those in direct light, but the potency is still there. Just my thoughts on the matter. Happy growing
 

CigNv

Well-Known Member
Since most calyxes get their energy from the nearest leaf, I wonder if the sugar leaves tend to be the biggest contributor to the energy the top flowers get? Hence the reason to tuck or remove the large fan leaves and expose the bud sites to more light? Then the lower fan leaves continue to send energy to the lower buds and roots. Just a thought here, nothing I have proved out or found any information to prove out.
 

AdaminCO

Well-Known Member
Great point never thought of it that way there bud. Makes sense. As I was reading this thread about light and what not started thinking of what I learned in school about jungles and how they have different plants growing in different depths from the light canopy, to the jungle floor, where there is lil to no direct light. And them plants Still Be growing. But yes my last harvest them lower growths were very slow but surely building mass, and sticky lovelyness. They may not look as good visually As those in direct light, but the potency is still there. Just my thoughts on the matter. Happy growing
I personally like those little ping pong ball or smaller sized nugs, that’s why I leave them. They’re usually dense as hell.

It takes a bit longer to trim, but whatever. I have a screen for the little buds to dry on after washing.
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AdaminCO

Well-Known Member
Since most calyxes get their energy from the nearest leaf, I wonder if the sugar leaves tend to be the biggest contributor to the energy the top flowers get? Hence the reason to tuck or remove the large fan leaves and expose the bud sites to more light? Then the lower fan leaves continue to send energy to the lower buds and roots. Just a thought here, nothing I have proved out or found any information to prove out.
The way I understand it is that if they connect directly to the bud, they are the main source for the flower. If the fan connects under a node, it’s for the plant as a whole if it has a deficiency.
I read that with the bigger node fans that always get chewed up... that your plant actually has a memory to where that energy source is, and if/when you remove it, the plant has to spend time trying to establish a new route, causing the plant to take longer to correct itself.
I think the podcast was This guy grows or something like that.
 

bobrown14

Grow Journal of the Month: Dec 2017 - Photo of the Month: May 2020
Think of fan leaves specially the older larger fans as Sinks of energy.

The energy is stored in the leaf material (why they are large and green). When the leaf becomes mature (different time than the plant itself) those fan leaves begin to give back the stored energy.

Its a very complex process. All sorts of chemistry, physics and biology going on.

These larger older fans will give back that stored energy to the flowers for reproduction and why you will see them (had you left them on the plant) begin to change colors.

This change in color is the sugars and other nutrients like Calcium and Nitrogen being translocated to the reproductive parts of the plant. This color change and leaf fall is called senescence.

This process goes all the way to where the plant seals off the leaf petiole (stem) attachment point (to avoid penetration of pathogens) Abscission, and the leaf falls off naturally.

Senescence process
Resorption - Chlorophyll breakdown
Translocation - movement of sugars and nutrients
Abscission - process of mechanical leaf loss.

If it was beneficial for a plant to loose their leaves, they already know how to do it and do it all the time.

How do hoo-mans know this process better than a plant?

I guess somehow we think we are "helping", we are not helping.
 

Scottylikesbud

Well-Known Member
Very well written @bobrown14 pretty informative. It is called senescence? I will definitely try looking it up and learning more on the topic. Loving how the thread is progressing. Keep the knowledge dripping
 

AdaminCO

Well-Known Member
Think of fan leaves specially the older larger fans as Sinks of energy.

The energy is stored in the leaf material (why they are large and green). When the leaf becomes mature (different time than the plant itself) those fan leaves begin to give back the stored energy.

Its a very complex process. All sorts of chemistry, physics and biology going on.

These larger older fans will give back that stored energy to the flowers for reproduction and why you will see them (had you left them on the plant) begin to change colors.

This change in color is the sugars and other nutrients like Calcium and Nitrogen being translocated to the reproductive parts of the plant. This color change and leaf fall is called senescence.

This process goes all the way to where the plant seals off the leaf petiole (stem) attachment point (to avoid penetration of pathogens) Abscission, and the leaf falls off naturally.

Senescence process
Resorption - Chlorophyll breakdown
Translocation - movement of sugars and nutrients
Abscission - process of mechanical leaf loss.

If it was beneficial for a plant to loose their leaves, they already know how to do it and do it all the time.

How do hoo-mans know this process better than a plant?

I guess somehow we think we are "helping", we are not helping.
Your explanation sounded a lot better than mine. Lol!
Im booking marking for future conversations. Lol.
 

nickeluring

Well-Known Member
OK...I was hoping to get some good discussion and pics going on this topic I need to learn much more about...happening now. I will catch up on all tomorrow. Pics from this morning.
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It's getting bushier. It will not get better by itself, you need to start trimming some leaves off. It is way too crowded in there.
 

cr8grow

Plant of the Month, June 2020
After reading replies so far I decided to hold off on the trim until stretch is finished. Im still raising the light about an inch a day. Yesterday was 1st day of week 3 flower. Removed all LST wires no longer needed. Trimmed just a few dead leaves, a couple on the soil and a couple hanging over the pot where there were more than one for airflow. I can see what will be trimmed away, spindly branches growing up the inside which will produce flower puffs only. Rotated and got all four back into the cabinet. I have 10 main bud sites each through training and many secondary sites more or less at the canopy. Those I will leave as my CMH315 light will make smaller but still quality buds.

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cr8grow

Plant of the Month, June 2020
Nice looking crop! I usually take off bottoms at the end of stretch. I don't go crazy. Just enough for good air flow. Leafs are the plants solar panels. So I leave most on. When they fade and die off I pluck them
Thanks Dankman...Im onboard with this approach for this grow. Doing better in general this grow so far...learned a few things my first grow and here.
 

cr8grow

Plant of the Month, June 2020
Beautiful looking ladies BTW. Looking forward to reading the responses from those with more wisdom.

My thoughts would be that you can do some minor defoliation below the canopy so that they can focus their efforts on your flower instead of trying to keep the lower canopy happy and healthy since it is not getting as much energy/light. You are relatively early in flower so they are still growing and stretching for a little while longer. You still have a buffer of time. I'm just not positive how much time you have. Hopefully someone chimes in with more experience. Good luck!
Baked...thanks for the feedback. Im just going into week 3 after flip to 12/12. Im going to wait until after the stretch to trim low.
 

cr8grow

Plant of the Month, June 2020
Yeah I was pretty big on defoliation early on in my attempts at soil, but with a dwc system, and watching my first harvest, I wouldn’t suggest it. You say you have got good penetration so I wouldn’t be to worried.
I didn’t defoliate this plant in flower, but I did go through removing lower new branches and a whole sh1t ton of leaves before flipping, maybe the lower half? But with my two new plants going intoflower now, I’m going to try the non defoliate route, just a lot more supercropping,
All that lower growth just ended up growing anyhow, be it a lot slower, but surely still growing, they look way lighter in color, and a bit fluffy, but what the hell its still bud, and I liked it.
After 6 long months I want all the buds I can get big, lil, Larfy, or dense. A lot better then buying some small buds from that one dealer in town. But yeah I felt like kicking myself for removing some smaller branches last go round, as the entire plant just budded up, even deep within that plant. Not getting direct light. So you asked for an opinion and here is mine. If you want to defoliate, go for it I did. But I’m going to try restraining myself this go. And watch her grow out patiently
Scotty...thanks for the reply. Half of the yield my first grow was smaller fat buds from the secondary sites...all as good as the big buds. Pic is GSC my first grow. Im going to trim just the wispy branches low after stretch.
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cr8grow

Plant of the Month, June 2020
I would not trim again until after the stretch. They are probably pushing their strongest right now at stretch, and disrupting that will surly mess with growth.

Good rule of thumb is trim clones a week before flip, then again after the stretch.Typically 3 weeks or so after flip. You never want to trim fans from a bud site, that is the buds energy supply. If there is a fan under another node, to another set of fans, then the bud, those are okay to trim when necessary.
My focus this grow is to build a healthy base to support fat flowers and increase yield. I did several things wrong my first grow and adjusting. I will wait until after the stretch to trim lightly. I also realized I may not know what a fan leaf is. I thought it was just the original giant leaves. Now thinking fans are all those with the long stems?
 
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