Did you buy real 1000W LED grow lights?

[The nutty bud]

I seen plants much bigger. But not with LEDs. This is a learning experience for me. Two years ago I would of told you LEDs are crap but over the pass years the science is getting better.
Anyway I believe in LEDs now that in understanding the science. I posted a learning read about all the go on with the science and it covered all that you need to know about abbreviations and what they mean along with mathematical formulas how calculate what your LED lights regenerating per square foot

 

[The nutty bud]

Now I posted it on this page and 420 magazine moved it to the learning page

 

[Nunyabiz]

The only metric that really matters regardless of what type of light is PPFD.
You need between 750 to 950 PPFD as evenly as possible across the whole canopy. Any higher than that and you need C02 to utilize it.
LED can achieve that needed PPFD with far less watts and less heat and if you use the right configuration such as strip lights LED also gives much more even coverage.

My lights I just built burn 650 watts at full blast and completely blow away a 1000w HPS in PPFD and even canopy coverage.
I have to dim them down to 250w because the lights are too intense for my 2.5 x 5' space.
They run so cool that I can run them just 6" from canopy.

LED light manufacturers need to advertise their lights by PPFD and coverage and forget about watts.

 

[The nutty bud]

Photosynthetic photon density
Ppfd

 

[The nutty bud]

Correct not watts
PAR photonic active radiation
PPFD photonic synthetic densit
Nm frequency needed between 350 750

 

[The nutty bud]

You can have a ppfd of 800
If the active radiation is only 600 and you need 1500 your active radiation is 900 to low

 

[The nutty bud]

Now I can gave a ppfd of 400
My active radiation at 1600
Lower density higher activity energy

 

[The nutty bud]

Lux
Lummis in ppfd is not a active way to measure consumption of photonic energy

 

[The nutty bud]

You need a photonic sphere

 

[Nunyabiz]

You can have a ppfd of 800
If the active radiation is only 600 and you need 1500 your active radiation is 900 to low

You never need 1500 unless you're running pretty heavy C02.
And pretty much all LED grow light spectrums are between the 400 to 700nm wavelength which is what "active radiation" is I believe.

 

[GeOMaTTiC]

You never need 1500 unless you're running pretty heavy C02.
And pretty much all LED grow light spectrums are between the 400 to 700nm wavelength which is what "active radiation" is I believe.

No point in arguing with a scientist, he is a master gardener afterall.

 

[BTzGrow]

The only metric that really matters regardless of what type of light is PPFD.
You need between 750 to 950 PPFD as evenly as possible across the whole canopy. Any higher than that and you need C02 to utilize it.
LED can achieve that needed PPFD with far less watts and less heat and if you use the right configuration such as strip lights LED also gives much more even coverage.

My lights I just built burn 650 watts at full blast and completely blow away a 1000w HPS in PPFD and even canopy coverage.
I have to dim them down to 250w because the lights are too intense for my 2.5 x 5' space.
They run so cool that I can run them just 6" from canopy.

LED light manufacturers need to advertise their lights by PPFD and coverage and forget about watts.

Agreed regarding the only metric needed is PPFD. I also agree with keeping the PPFD levels between 750 for Veg and 950 for Flower. Using these numbers as a guide I typically yield around .8 to .9grams per AC watt.

I work with generating a 25 DLI for the veg cycle period and 35 plus for the flower cycle. LED's give me the most bang for my AC wattage dollar out of the wall. The smaller LED also make temperature management easier. I don't use dimmers as I just adjust the height to get my perfect numbers. Some dimmers just dim the light output but don't reduce the wattage draw from the wall because they dim the driver output.

I use the smaller Perfect Sun Mini's in multiples to provide more side to side coverage and higher PPFD in the center where they overlap.

2nd PS MIni Installed

• BTzGrow
• Feb 16, 2018

The Mini's hangers also allow for lateral tilting.

Using a Hydrofarm LGBQM Quantum PAR Meter Micromol Sensor extremely important and easy to use to measure PPFD all around my tents especially the edges.

 

[noobgrow1]

This is Not true either. Some LED's are far more efficient than others. You do not need the same wattage (1000w led) as a (1000w) hps to get the same yield with good quality LED's and the right coverage. Quality is the key. Homemade LED's have grown 2 grams per watt when built and placed and ran correctly. With commercially made LED's you may have a point and may need close to a watt to watt light to get the same yield. Not the case with many of us and our homemade setups though.
Also...

True par coverage advertising from almost every grow light company there is is almost as falsely advertised as the wattage. Not only is the par in coverage over exaggerated but those par tests are not done with plants in the room either where the branches in the center create shadows and dark spots that really put a hamper on par levels at the edges of the grow area. True Par coverage is usually about two-thirds of what is advertised at the very most. I test every light I get my hands on. Straight up, I see lights made that are 10 inches wide and 30 inches long, so how can advertised par coverage be 2 feet by 4 feet for example? When the light itself is 3 times longer than it is wide how can that math work out? It cant and it dont.

MARS is no different in this regard. If they were they would advertise True wattage and TRUE par in a real world scenario but they dont. They market big numbers just like every other company. If only one of these led companies were smart enough to advertise actual true numbers they would be amazed at how many people would buy their product just for being truthful and not trying to Market with big numbers.

OMG! Let me here ya all w / a BIG LOAD Amen & Hallelujah brother! My head has spun so much due to my enthusiasm to get started and wanting to be energy efficient read (cheap) I went right to LEDs which I don't yet regret, but in my excitement and being so new in my re-introduction to cannabis use & interest in cultivation read & read about what to look for not necessarily noticing lots of what I was reading is tainted by some of the following:

1. Often pretty old information, a major pet peeve of mine is blogs and other spots on the net do not have dated posts. Really chaps my ass!​

2. Reviews or recommendations often are so polarized as we humans do, really sad fact. We tend to look at others similar to ourselves which shape our biases. Hmm, Johnny Cannabis seed here seems a lot like me and he swears by ( fill in your own lighting tech or brand)​

3. Much of data at least I see is rarely backed up with scientific proof or what they are showing are skewed charts or facts. Or worse yet the language in a study is just beyond my mortal comprehension.​

4. Perhaps I am the only one that chases the manufacturer shaking their shiny keys at me saying, "Psst no over here we are the best. I lean toward a bit ADHD so again maybe only me! But the human condition alone is enough also being born and raised in the western capitalistic cultures I think is enough my ADHD just helps me to lose focus and get pulled another direction!​

5. Internet search engines & market places monitoring our every keystroke and skewing your search results. I am at a point that I have removed Google everywhere I can from my search engine. Don't wanna point just at Google, any major Internet player is doing so all the "free social media, search or entertainment players" are in on the game.​

6. Commerce is a fickle beast the "green rush" is on and savvy businesses are tossing everything they can to make a buck. Some are much greedier and ruthless than others, weeding out facts & where to toss my green backs is no simple feat.​

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My list could probably go on, BTW wish my word processing / formatting skills allowed me to get out of my indented list but alas onto why I was drawn to this thread. No doubt I and many others do not need so many watts. I began looking at journals and setups ppl have they seem to get some decent results with some fairly low watts and even less than perfect LED setups.​

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I will read more of this thread hopefully finding some of my answers and hopefully not having to start another but I am after a couple grows disappointed with most pre-built LED configs. the design of the chassis for the lights in them are just plain awful in my ltd experience.​

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I have what I consider one extremely overpriced maybe 8-10 year old style blurple LED that is nothing more than a well marketed China light they barely changed the name of the product! See theirs still selling for like $600 US and I can source identical from at least one overseas sight for just over $200. It's way heavy & I think outperformed by some relatively cheap COB configurations I purchased shortly after at least thinking I had to add more light on my first grow. I vegged a while and the ladies got big! No way I was shelling out another $600 so more research I settled on an advertised 1800 watt COB config. It works and was cheap enough so I got a couple more found same damn light seller "A" sold on Amazon for like $130 for about $90. I know they are manufactured probably in the same factory minimally with the same process as they all have the same defective dent in the same place.​

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I don't begrudge anyone making a living but the smoke and mirrors just kills me. Not sure where the phrase originates and I am probably paraphrasing but there's NO Truth in advertising! I can and do accept that but now I am on a quest to find out just what my lighting needs are for my goals.​

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You would think that should be kind of simple, well I am no Einstein but I am at least average perhaps a bit above in my IQ. I don't want to have to become an agricultural or some other type PhD seems a simple enough question. But LED's are an ever evolving technology & let's face it I am a hobbyist at best so I am hoping to find some reliable comprehensible data to point me in a direction.​

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I already from experience know that you need to ignore advertised claims. It is really important what your lighting form factor or chassis design is. Seems as Fanleaf mentioned above it's not all about watts or even light intensity PAR, PPFD, yadi yada. But if I could find an honest manufacturer that was not digging IMO so so deeply into my pockets they could get a real following.​

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Some of the LED manufacturers that claim to be "high end" are just seemingly so overpriced it's insane. From my vantage point cannabis home growing is a bit of a bubble right now. With outdated prohibition laws changing so quickly they are in the best positions to profit from it & don't think they are unaware. They have almost zero risk as they do not ever touch the end product they are marketed for producing.​

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I am in business and have marketing understanding & also have some psychology background after taking many marketing classes seminars etc. trust me they are putting probably more capitol into their marketing than their R&D. Good often for business not so good for consumers.​

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Look at any of my posts you will know I could go on, some because I am still a bit of an idealist and have a bit of that old hippy type mentality especially surrounding the cannabis culture in the western world. When weed got more popular and passed from the jazz musicians & other fringe type to the your people in the west most were very communal at their core. Today corporations are chomping at the bit to get us to part with our cash for their warez!​

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Presently their are major corporate players still yet in the wings so I am sure the waters will only get muddier...​

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Peace & Love!​

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NG1 who BTW can't wait until he has some cool links to put in a sig for all to see!​

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[BTzGrow]

Here's another look at my 2'x4" GGT with two small LED Mini's providing all the light I need for 35DLI in the flower stage.

TC and SLH July18.jpg

• BTzGrow
• Jul 18, 2019

 

[Nunyabiz]

Agreed regarding the only metric needed is PPFD. I also agree with keeping the PPFD levels between 750 for Veg and 950 for Flower. Using these numbers as a guide I typically yield around .8 to .9grams per AC watt.

I work with generating a 25 DLI for the veg cycle period and 35 plus for the flower cycle. LED's give me the most bang for my AC wattage dollar out of the wall. The smaller LED also make temperature management easier. I don't use dimmers as I just adjust the height to get my perfect numbers. Some dimmers just dim the light output but don't reduce the wattage draw from the wall because they dim the driver output.

I use the smaller Perfect Sun Mini's in multiples to provide more side to side coverage and higher PPFD in the center where they overlap.

2nd PS MIni Installed

• BTzGrow
• Feb 16, 2018

The Mini's hangers also allow for lateral tilting.

Using a Hydrofarm LGBQM Quantum PAR Meter Micromol Sensor extremely important and easy to use to measure PPFD all around my tents especially the edges.

Cool.
My dimmers reduce wattage from the wall.
They go from 27 watts up to 326 watts.

My lights are large enough to completely blanket my whole space with light.

 

[BTzGrow]

Cool.
My dimmers reduce wattage from the wall.
They go from 27 watts up to 326 watts.

My lights are large enough to completely blanket my whole space with light.

I like it. Great setup. I look forward to following your grow.

 

[cal45]

This is Not true either. Some LED's are far more efficient than others. You do not need the same wattage (1000w led) as a (1000w) hps to get the same yield with good quality LED's and the right coverage. Quality is the key. Homemade LED's have grown 2 grams per watt when built and placed and ran correctly. With commercially made LED's you may have a point and may need close to a watt to watt light to get the same yield. Not the case with many of us and our homemade setups though.
Also...

True par coverage advertising from almost every grow light company there is is almost as falsely advertised as the wattage. Not only is the par in coverage over exaggerated but those par tests are not done with plants in the room either where the branches in the center create shadows and dark spots that really put a hamper on par levels at the edges of the grow area. True Par coverage is usually about two-thirds of what is advertised at the very most. I test every light I get my hands on. Straight up, I see lights made that are 10 inches wide and 30 inches long, so how can advertised par coverage be 2 feet by 4 feet for example? When the light itself is 3 times longer than it is wide how can that math work out? It cant and it dont.

MARS is no different in this regard. If they were they would advertise True wattage and TRUE par in a real world scenario but they dont. They market big numbers just like every other company. If only one of these led companies were smart enough to advertise actual true numbers they would be amazed at how many people would buy their product just for being truthful and not trying to Market with big numbers.

My Mars Hydro 2 900W lights only put out around 490W each.Lol

 

[BTzGrow]

My Mars Hydro 2 900W lights only put out around 490W each.Lol

I guess this is where some of the issues with LED's come from. Marketing gets a hold of a product and represents it in a way that can be deceptive. This I feel is where they run afoul with comparisons against other lights. Because of the claims they make.

I use a manufacture that that rates their lights based on the AC wattage from the wall. I don't have a lot of experience with others but it would appear some might use a different standard. To me it seems reasonable and logical to use the AC wattage draw. I would really like to see this as one of the measurement standards listed on the product.

The difficulty with LED's is we need to compare apples to apples. LED types and understand the ratings of and different types of light spectrum. We should be concentrating also on numbers of LED's in the fixture.

There should be a recorded and displayed graph of the visible light compared to the intensity levels of the wavelengths on all lights intended for growers. There should also be a map of the light footprint showing the PPFD for at least 12 inches and 18 inches from light to surface.

You are also correct on coverage. a small 6'x10' light can't provide full coverage of a 2'x2.5' tent. LED's provide a cone of coverage that decreases in size the closer the surface of the light gets to the target.

Regardless, I feel every grower who desires to approach growing cannabis should have a means of measuring the PPFD and determining the DLI their plants are being exposed to. I consider myself a hobby/recreation grower but I take it serious because I want to grow a really high quality level of flower. To blindly believe what ever marketing want you to think makes people sheep.

 

[Elevated Lighting Company]

Your right! The high end lights such as fluence, we tried to make lights with the same chips, the osram chips, but the cost is insame, not to mention the retail, the same wattage for example 250w might go to more than 400USD. Luckily find the solutions, to make the same chips with Epistar, the output is almost the same, but the cost drops a lot. Which makes our customer can enjoy the new tech with less money.

Please clarify when you say outputs the same. There is a major difference between Epistar diodes and Samsung / Osram diodes. The PPE is unmatched so please speak truthfully when trying to make comparisons.

The cost difference is most certainly due to higher performing components both in light output and grow output.