420 Magazine Background

DWC - Quick question about pH and ppm

Thread starter #1
I have a once a week feeding schedule and so far this is what i understand on the drain side if pH rises add more nutes so if during the week the pH rises do we use pH down to lower the pH or do we add more nutes to lower the pH as we go from 1/3 to 1/2 strength... Would we pH down first then add nutes or add nutes then pH down.
 
Hello I see no one has answered your question yet.

In DWC you should only add nutrients at the beginning of every week. Also you should only add nutrients if you understand your lady and how ppm works.

Lets say you mix up a batch of nutrients at 1/3 strength. Lets also say that 1/3 nutrients is equivalent to 500ppm. You also determine that you would like to keep your ph at 6.0. So you mix up your nutrients, the ph is stable and the ppm value is 500. Awesome your ladies love it, now the next day you check your reservoir levels. You have lost a liter of water and your ph has either dropped/stayed the same/rose from 6.0.

For the sake of this story we will say it is now 5.6, it is advised that you add ph up in a bit of water and add it to your reservoir to attempt to get it back to 6.0 which is the "hotspot" of growth. The pros say you should do it slowly over the course of a couple of hours or so to prevent shock, I don't have that time maybe you do but everyone is different. Regardless you should only add nutrients if your ppm level's get low, and only then if you are experienced and you ladies show signs of deficiencies that only fertilizer can solve.

One thing I do is keep a separate bucket of water at 6.0ph, when my reservoir levels drop I just top it off with this water. This will attempt to stabilize your solution to maintain optimal growth levels, and delude your nutrient solution.

If we jump back to the same story only this time you have lost half of your water reservoir. You do what every good grower does you read the PH level and PPM level of your current solution. It says your PH is at 5.6 but your PPM is now at 800. Well why did this happen you say, the nutrients have become concentrated since the water levels have declined. But if you add water to the previous amount you should be somewhere in the ball park of 500 ppm. This is how you determine how much your ladies are drinking/eating and when would be a good time to add nutrients back into the reservoir.

I know its a rather long answer but considering how touchy dwc is and then you add a nutrient sensitive lady on top of that, things can get bad quickly and the more knowledge the better. I hope this helped.
 
Thread starter #4
Thanks, i think thats how im going to proceed.... One quick question how long do you let your seeds be seedlings before the veg cycle.
 
I wait until she produces a set of 7 blades. This way I know she is mature enough to be in veg. From here if you have the time and patience you should allow her to remain in vegetation until she starts to pre flower. This indicates that she is sexually mature and is ready to produce some mature bud. Also you could clone her 2 weeks before switching to flower. Cloning would allow you to make identical copy's of their parent, and if you screw up hey you can try again on one of her kids. Hope this helps if you need any information feel free to click on my signature and ask a question there.
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
High RootSpaGuru

DWC has been my favorite way to grow for 14 years and when I worried about pH I'd mix everything up and get it to about 5.4. When the plants were growing good it would creep up to around 6.2 so I'd add a bit of nutes to get the ppm back up to the level I wanted then add a few drops of concentrated sulfuric acid to knock it back to around 5.4 again. Was regular like clockwork. This yo-yo effect on the pH has the benefit of putting various nutrients in the exact pH for the best absorption by the plant. Aiming for 6 like Addonexus said is a good target.

Now I use the pH perfect nutes from AN and put my pH pen away a year ago.

So I would always top up with water first then check ppm. I'll add some nutes if needed to get back to target ppm. +/- 100 is good enough. Let that circulate for at least 5 min but longer is better then check pH and add some pH down or up as needed. I never noticed any problems dropping the pH a full point with the acid.

I'm always trying to make it as easy as I can so the K.I.S.S. principle is foremost in my mind and not worrying about pH is a big step towards that goal. :)

L8r
 
I have two (Chem Dog) girls flowering with one a week or two from harvest in DWC bubblers (no reservoir.) While the plants are young and vegetating, I think the weekly nute change simply puts money in the pocket of the nutrient manufacturer. You can easily stretch it out to two or three weeks between bucket changes simply by monitoring the pH and EC levels.

Here's what I've been doing for the girls. In full flower my biggest girl is easily drinking a quart per day. I monitor pH at the beginning and end of 'their' day and replace nutes as I go. I mix up a full strength gallon of nutes (GH 3-part Flora series with GH Silica and Cal/Mag) and adjust the pH between 5.2 and 5.5 with 1000 to 1100 ppm on my TDS pen. Yesterday at the end of the 12 hour lights on period, pH was 5.7 with 1310 ppm. Also the level in the bucket was down a fair bit so I knew it needed to be topped off. I dilute the full strength nute solution I mixed earlier 1:1 with water (pH 7.4 and 170 to 180 ppm out of the tap) and add 1 ml of GH Down. This gets added directly to the bucket, pouring it through the hydroton.

I fed the the other girl who is at least a week maybe two behind the big one similarly but with less total volume (instead of a half gallon total added to the bucket, maybe 3 pints or so, but still 1:1 dilution with plain water.) The result for the big girl was pH 5.35 and 1100 ppm which in my opinion is smack within her comfort zone. I agree with OldMedUser that letting the pH swing a little up or down within a specified range is fine. My range is 5.1 to about 5.8. Most people use soil charts for pH ranges which are wrong for hydroponics. Just saying. I do a complete replacement of the entire bucket with fresh nutes every week or two at this point.

Generally anything above 5.8 and I adjust pH down to 5.2 to 5.5 . My old Etekcity pH pen would get wildly out of calibration pretty fast and there were times it was reading 1.0 to 1.5 higher than it actually was so I was adjusting things down into the 4 pH range without realizing it. Even at that low pH it took a while for them to show signs of nutrient deficiency, so don't panic if your pH is even 1 point higher or lower than you want. When I adjust pH without adding nutrients, I take about a 10 to 16 ounces out of the bucket, add the appropriate pH Down or Up and pour it into the bucket over the hydroton. I follow that with two more containers of bucket nutes poured into the same spot to make sure it gets down into the bucket. I also decant an entire container of nute solution from the bucket and pour it back in before taking any pH reading in order to get an accurate reading of the bucket and not just the solution in the fill tube. I also never use the fill tube to put anything into the bucket, it's just too small.
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
You're making a lot of extra work for yourself Cap'n Nemo

You should always top up with fresh water before any testing. As the water level goes down the nutes get more concentrated and the ppm goes up. The pH is affected too.

Top up then test ppm. Add nutes in the proper proportion to bring the ppm up to your target level. I use a syringe to add each nute separately directly to the bubbler. A big tub in my case. Allow the new nutes to mix in well and react for half an hour or more so the pH is stable then test the pH and make any adjustments if needed.

Heck of a lot easier and the way I've been doing it for 40+ tubs worth with every one a successful grow. A couple of not great ones due to root rot but still got buds off the survivors enough to make it worth while. Have a DIY chiller now so rot isn't an issue.

I made it even easier for myself by getting pH Perfect nutes and putting my pH pen away. Works great in DWC and soilless and I haven't checked pH at all in over a year. I also use purchased RO water exclusively to prevent a lot of other problems.

5.2 is a little low for steady running tho when I used to have to bump mine down regularly it would often be as low as 5 but I knew it would rise to about 6.2 in 2 or 3 days. I used concentrated, 98%, sulfuric acid dropwise to lower my pH. 4 or 5 drops would drop my 50L tub down to 5.4 or so from 6.2. Stuff is wicked strong! :)

I'm sure your method works great for you but there seems to me to be a lot of unneeded steps to get to the same place.

:peace:

L8r


 
Thanks for the comment OldMedUser, but honestly I don't see how I'm doing more work. I don't make or have to buy RO, I don't use a chiller but have no root rot problems even though bucket temps are running 70 to 72 F right now with the warm spell we are having. I have an oversized air pump and with only two buckets, they are getting the total output of the pump. The solutions are highly aerated. I have used beneficials which are still helping even with complete bucket changes.

Each morning and evening pH check literally takes 10 to 15 minutes max to ensure pH is correct. For me, that is hardly burdensome. Mixing a gallon of full strength nutes maybe takes 8 or 10 minutes every third or fourth day or so. I started out lifting out the net pots and injecting everything directly into the bucket, but as the root ball got larger and the plants got larger and finally were put into a scrog, lifting the 10" net pots out is not feasible. Early on I noticed the root ball was growing around the aeration tube supplying the airstone and each time I lifted the net pot some of those roots were being disturbed and potentially injured. Now with 20 or 30 branches being supported by the scrog grid, it's even more problematic lifting the net pots.

Also, to me the cost/benefit ratio of AN nutrients is way too high, and I also disagree with the optimal pH ranges most companies (including AN) recommend. Desirable pH levels are species specific and Cannabis is well known to prefer more acidic conditions. I am basing my opinion not on what one or two people have done, but research (using scholar.google.com) and citations from several textbooks on hydroponic growing which based their information on actual laboratory/greenhouse research. As for your past use of sulfuric acid to adjust pH, I strongly recommend you rethink that method. Research (again on scholar.google.com) shows that the NH3/total N ratio is a more important factor in optimal nutrient uptake than just pH alone. In the same study, crop yields were significantly reduced by an accumulation of SO4 and Cl in nutrient solutions which under the study conditions happened when they were continuously recycled for 8 weeks. Deliberately adding sulphate anions to the nutrient solution is likely to have similar results on flowering and crop yield, ie. reduced yield. The constituents of GH pH Down are ammonium dihydrogenorthophospate and phosphoric acid, both of which supply needed plant nutrients as well as helping maintain a more optimal NH3/total N ratio.

And then there's the covariant effect of irradiance (light levels, specifically daily light interval) and nutrient availability on yield as measured by specific leaf area. Turns out, at higher irradiance levels low nutrient availability has much less effect on crop yield than lower nutrient availability at low light levels. Since I am running 4 3x100 LED's over about 11 sqft of grow area I have pretty high DLI (720 'draw' watts total). Any relative decreased nutrient availability in my setup is going to have less effect on yield than if I was growing at lower light levels. The take-home here is that with higher light levels, variance in pH dependent nutrient availability is going to have much less effect on flower/bud production.

Your point that you grew nice (maybe even 'great') yields using sulphuric acid to maintain a higher pH nutrient solution lends credence to the idea that cannabis can grow adequately even under sub-optimal conditions, especially with sufficiently high light levels. I do wonder if that is why you get adequate yields with the AN product that predetermines the pH of your solutions. If I had a bigger grow operation, perhaps the time involved in checking pH levels twice daily would become onerous and I would opt for more time efficient grow techniques even if yield was slightly affected. Only time will tell. After all this is my first serious grow since the mid 70's when I grew in soil on my dorm window sill.

Links to some of the research mentioned above:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/stor...727BABB7BF70CC.f02t02?v=1&t=idk95d8p&b83853e9

Interactions between ammonium and pH of the nutrient solution supplied to gerbera (Gerbera jamesonii) grown in pumice - Springer

Growth, Productivity, and Mineral Composition of Hydroponically Cultivated Greenhouse Tomatoes, with or without Nutrient Solution Recycling

NUTRIENT DYNAMICS AND pH / CHARGE-BALANCE RELATIONSHIPS IN HYDROPONIC SOLUTIONS

NUTRIENT MANAGEMENT IN RECIRCULATING HYDROPONIC CULTURE
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
I at first mistook you for a rookie that came up with an elaborate way of doing things that complicated growing a simple plant, well simply.
For that I offer my sincere apologies. :48:

I haven't used sulfuric acid for some time now and 4 or 5 drops twice a week wouldn't likely have had much of an effect on growth in a 50L tub tho I could be wrong. I have been accused of being wrong before. :)

I don't see the cost/benefit ratio of using AN nutes being skewed far enough to the high side of things to be much of a factor considering that they have done extensive research actually growing cannabis with their products. If one was to follow their feeding schedule and purchase all the additional supplements recommended then yes it would be very hard on the pocketbook and a great deal of perfectly good nutes would be going down the drain.

That is one of the points I make to to newer growers here and elsewhere is that the schedules are so wasteful. Especially in the first few weeks when the tiny seedlings are are growing into full blown plants. For many following such schedules is the only way they will harvest any medicine after months of frustration and heartbreak trying to wing it on their own. Many of these are really in need of cannabis as a medicine living on such meager funds that putting nutritious food on the table is a constant struggle. Myself among them.

Up here in the far north shipping costs near double the price of everything. When I manage to get to the closest hydro store, 2 hour drive, the price difference between GH/Miracle Grow 3-part base nutes and AN's is about $5/L. As the vast majority of plant problems I see with newer growers are pH/water related the added simplicity of not having to be concerned about pH is worth much more than that.

I first started using AN in 2001 with the 3-part as my base for a DWC tub I devised on my own. Had no internet and there was nothing in the magazines about it. CC and High Times were sporadically available at a gas station an hour away. I even wrote to Ed Rosenthal at Cannabis Culture Magazine telling him of my plans and asking his opinion. His answer in the mag was that he didn't think that growing pot in a tub of nutrient water was going to work well. My first tub of hash plants with dinner-plate sized leaves blew that out of the water. lol

Understanding the elaborate chemistry on the finer points of growing cannabis is not beyond my grasp as I have a background in chemistry but to the average nOOb it's hard enough for many to mix their nutes in the proper proportions. One must first learn to walk before beginning to run.

I thank you for your input and also those links. It will be interesting reading.

L8r

 
I at first mistook you for a rookie that came up with an elaborate way of doing things that complicated growing a simple plant, well simply.
For that I offer my sincere apologies. :48:

I haven't used sulfuric acid for some time now and 4 or 5 drops twice a week wouldn't likely have had much of an effect on growth in a 50L tub tho I could be wrong. I have been accused of being wrong before. :)

I don't see the cost/benefit ratio of using AN nutes being skewed far enough to the high side of things to be much of a factor considering that they have done extensive research actually growing cannabis with their products. If one was to follow their feeding schedule and purchase all the additional supplements recommended then yes it would be very hard on the pocketbook and a great deal of perfectly good nutes would be going down the drain.

That is one of the points I make to to newer growers here and elsewhere is that the schedules are so wasteful. Especially in the first few weeks when the tiny seedlings are are growing into full blown plants. For many following such schedules is the only way they will harvest any medicine after months of frustration and heartbreak trying to wing it on their own. Many of these are really in need of cannabis as a medicine living on such meager funds that putting nutritious food on the table is a constant struggle. Myself among them.

Up here in the far north shipping costs near double the price of everything. When I manage to get to the closest hydro store, 2 hour drive, the price difference between GH/Miracle Grow 3-part base nutes and AN's is about $5/L. As the vast majority of plant problems I see with newer growers are pH/water related the added simplicity of not having to be concerned about pH is worth much more than that.

I first started using AN in 2001 with the 3-part as my base for a DWC tub I devised on my own. Had no internet and there was nothing in the magazines about it. CC and High Times were sporadically available at a gas station an hour away. I even wrote to Ed Rosenthal at Cannabis Culture Magazine telling him of my plans and asking his opinion. His answer in the mag was that he didn't think that growing pot in a tub of nutrient water was going to work well. My first tub of hash plants with dinner-plate sized leaves blew that out of the water. lol

Understanding the elaborate chemistry on the finer points of growing cannabis is not beyond my grasp as I have a background in chemistry but to the average nOOb it's hard enough for many to mix their nutes in the proper proportions. One must first learn to walk before beginning to run.

I thank you for your input and also those links. It will be interesting reading.

L8r

Been growing 5 DWCs now and I change my rez once when I set her to flowering. Thats the only time I dump my Rez, start with fresh filtered tap water and do a complete change - Only because I am going from grow nutes to bloom Nutes and I use bennies as well like Voodoo, Tarantula and Piranha...

I have never had any issues not changing my rez. its not required, so why waste all that money and change the rez weekly? crazy. I now run a 31 gallon Rez (total liquid) and it would cost me hundreds of dollars in nutes to change it weekly.

Dont do it. Changing rez or water in the bubbler is not needed.
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Not changing nutes is my philosophy too Kal1424 but it's not for everyone. Once you have lots of experience you can tell by instinct what your plant wants as you go but for newer growers lacking confidence it's scary.

Changing nutes in the first 3 or 4 weeks is a definite waste of good nutes and even nOObs should be able to handle that. If you fill the tub/rez and add 1/4 strength nutes to star clones and it reads say 300ppm then you know that adding the same amount of nutes will make it 600ppm. Very simple math and if you wanted 500 then put in 1/5 instead of 1/4 and it should be very close to 500ppm.

I don't use any of the bennies you are using. A liter of Voodoo is almost $100 and I don't know what the other cost but for a guy living on gov't disability it's hard to justify paying so much for extras when for the last 40 or so tubs I'm growing decent amounts of bud. It's new territory for me and I may try it down the line. I waited years to try the pH Perfect stuff and am sure glad I did. No fussing with pH and that was half the work to maintain the tub(s). I almost went with the basic 3-part like I had used with great results for 10 years but got the Sensi and Connoisseur instead and really like them. It would be nice if the nute makers were allowed to put all the things in their nutes on the labels but 100 year old labeling laws prevent them. I just checked the AN website and they have a lot more info about what's in their various products than they used to.

AN makes almost the whole line tweaked for growing in coco too tho I use ProMix HP that is peat based.

I'm buddies with a guy that works in a small hydro shop in northern Alberta and getting to be buddies with the owner too. He says that the AN sales rep is rather pushy and they want him to buy larger quantities of their nutes than his small store could sell unless they got rid of most of the other lines. He no longer carries any AN products so instead of a 2 hour drive to his store I have to drive 5 hours to one that does stock the full line of AN products. Luckily the guy there is cool about phone orders and gets things I need sent up here as soon as I send him the money order details before he's even received it. Now they make you fill out the details on the money orders at the post office so I'll be sending cash next time. Packages come with a person's name on them and no store ID so that's even better. :)

I like shopping local and AN started just down the road from where I lived in BC and has a plant in the US now so my money goes to a great product made here specifically for the plants we are growing and not flowers and veggies like most other companies like GH/Miracle Grow offer. Since Miracle Grow bought GH I suspect thinking people who use that 3rd rate stuff will be looking for something else.

Their nutrient calculator really sucks and is obviously designed to make you use up the max amount of nutes possible. 4ml/L from the first week! They are shooting themselves in the foot with that crap. That's why people look at that and know if they follow it they will have to take out a 2nd mortgage. lol

L8r

 
Not changing nutes is my philosophy too Kal1424 but it's not for everyone. Once you have lots of experience you can tell by instinct what your plant wants as you go but for newer growers lacking confidence it's scary.

Changing nutes in the first 3 or 4 weeks is a definite waste of good nutes and even nOObs should be able to handle that. If you fill the tub/rez and add 1/4 strength nutes to star clones and it reads say 300ppm then you know that adding the same amount of nutes will make it 600ppm. Very simple math and if you wanted 500 then put in 1/5 instead of 1/4 and it should be very close to 500ppm.

I don't use any of the bennies you are using. A liter of Voodoo is almost $100 and I don't know what the other cost but for a guy living on gov't disability it's hard to justify paying so much for extras when for the last 40 or so tubs I'm growing decent amounts of bud. It's new territory for me and I may try it down the line. I waited years to try the pH Perfect stuff and am sure glad I did. No fussing with pH and that was half the work to maintain the tub(s). I almost went with the basic 3-part like I had used with great results for 10 years but got the Sensi and Connoisseur instead and really like them. It would be nice if the nute makers were allowed to put all the things in their nutes on the labels but 100 year old labeling laws prevent them. I just checked the AN website and they have a lot more info about what's in their various products than they used to.

AN makes almost the whole line tweaked for growing in coco too tho I use ProMix HP that is peat based.

I'm buddies with a guy that works in a small hydro shop in northern Alberta and getting to be buddies with the owner too. He says that the AN sales rep is rather pushy and they want him to buy larger quantities of their nutes than his small store could sell unless they got rid of most of the other lines. He no longer carries any AN products so instead of a 2 hour drive to his store I have to drive 5 hours to one that does stock the full line of AN products. Luckily the guy there is cool about phone orders and gets things I need sent up here as soon as I send him the money order details before he's even received it. Now they make you fill out the details on the money orders at the post office so I'll be sending cash next time. Packages come with a person's name on them and no store ID so that's even better. :)

I like shopping local and AN started just down the road from where I lived in BC and has a plant in the US now so my money goes to a great product made here specifically for the plants we are growing and not flowers and veggies like most other companies like GH/Miracle Grow offer. Since Miracle Grow bought GH I suspect thinking people who use that 3rd rate stuff will be looking for something else.

Their nutrient calculator really sucks and is obviously designed to make you use up the max amount of nutes possible. 4ml/L from the first week! They are shooting themselves in the foot with that crap. That's why people look at that and know if they follow it they will have to take out a 2nd mortgage. lol

L8r

I can tell you this much, that when I add Voodoo juice, my root ball almost doubles and pretty close to triple in size before I used voodoo juice. Its the shit... my main stalks or stems is over 2 inches on each plant and its health and fat. :)

AN bennies work great and its a regiment i totally endorse. Only other alternative is if you brew your own tea... it would be cheaper, but I not sure better.
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Each to their own I tend to say Kal

I prefer to keep bugs of all kinds out of my hydro growing and it works for me. These roots grew in the old AN 3-part GMB with twice weekly additions of 35% food grade peroxide added at 0.5ml/L or 2ml/usg. White as the driven snow but for the hps yellow tint. If bennies would double my root growth I would need much bigger tubs. :)



L8r

 
Each to their own I tend to say Kal

I prefer to keep bugs of all kinds out of my hydro growing and it works for me. These roots grew in the old AN 3-part GMB with twice weekly additions of 35% food grade peroxide added at 0.5ml/L or 2ml/usg. White as the driven snow but for the hps yellow tint. If bennies would double my root growth I would need much bigger tubs. :)



L8r

thats good root growth, but how long did that take? I get roots like that in 2 weeks of veg cycle and then I go to flower. If you can get that in 2 weeks with no additives, then you got magic water. lol ;)

Also, one of my root balls look like 4 of your combined. One root ball fills a whole 18 gallon rubbermade tote.
 

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
I was getting concerned about all those roots taking up too much space in the tub and reducing the volume of water too much so I did a little experiment.

When that grow was done I cut all the roots off the bottom of the pots and left them in the tub. Then I topped the tub up to my marked level and took the roots out, shaking off as much water as I could back into the tub. Then I added a measured amount of water back to the mark and it only took 2L to get back to the mark. Filled to the mark the tub held 50L of water so that meant the roots only displaced 4% of the total volume.

Now I'm no longer concerned. :)

L8r
 

VilliageIdiot

Well-Known Member
@OldMedUser

Good stuff...Whenever I read people posting about costs I feel compelled to share that for Veg there is a very cheap easy to use single bottle solution I have used many many times that is great. You can find it at Home Depot or Walmart so shouldn't take 2 hours to find.

Just for the fun try some eleanor's vf-11 sometime. You will want to add some Cal mag. but you wont need to for the first few weeks.

I haven't tried it in bloom...But it does work great in veg and is dirt cheap.

I typically drain at light cycle change and for flush. I have been successful managing this stuff through veg without dumping the res. A guy like you should have no issues and it feels like its free compared to anything else.

Single solution no A and B mixing. $17 a gallon... I'd still spend money in bloom but this gets ya stalks in veg bigger than your thumbs and supper tight nodal density for near nothing. I typically see nodal density tighter than an inch a part using this on a 400W in veg...I switch to a 1000W and the good stuff in bloom. I'm a happy camper and I find it easier than AN PH perfect (not that AN is difficult...just this is easier, cheaper, great results).

:peace:
 
@OldMedUser

Good stuff...Whenever I read people posting about costs I feel compelled to share that for Veg there is a very cheap easy to use single bottle solution I have used many many times that is great. You can find it at Home Depot or Walmart so shouldn't take 2 hours to find.

Just for the fun try some eleanor's vf-11 sometime. You will want to add some Cal mag. but you wont need to for the first few weeks.

I haven't tried it in bloom...But it does work great in veg and is dirt cheap.

I typically drain at light cycle change and for flush. I have been successful managing this stuff through veg without dumping the res. A guy like you should have no issues and it feels like its free compared to anything else.

Single solution no A and B mixing. $17 a gallon... I'd still spend money in bloom but this gets ya stalks in veg bigger than your thumbs and supper tight nodal density for near nothing. I typically see nodal density tighter than an inch a part using this on a 400W in veg...I switch to a 1000W and the good stuff in bloom. I'm a happy camper and I find it easier than AN PH perfect (not that AN is difficult...just this is easier, cheaper, great results).

:peace:
VI, where do you get your VF11? Home depot doesn't carry it anymore and neither does amazon. That makes it harder... post a link to where you buy it from please.
 

VilliageIdiot

Well-Known Member
I still see it at my Home Depot. I hear you can get it at Walmart. I think they have a website...vf11ind.com and there they say Ace Hardware, Albertsons, Bi-Mart, Armstrong Garden Centers, CVS Pharmacy, Fred Meyers (that is local to the NW but were bought out by Krogers), Longs Drugs, OSH, Raley's, Rite Aid...and many more.

Go to their website and they have a store locator. I just checked the website and it looks like you can buy direct and get a case of 4 1 gallon bottles for $68.

I love the stuff. Many people claim it self cycles the Ph up and down. I have found it does real well once stabilized. Not hard to learn to use and stabilize. They claim it wont burn your plants. I think anything can burn but they say it wont. Good stuff, probably the best for the price.

:Namaste:


A while back I posted a pick of some results I had recently from that stuff in this thread...

Just upped my DWC Hydro Grow - used too big of buckets