Dying plants are good for you

Landracey

Well-Known Member
This is anecdotal, and I would be interested in hearing the opinions of growers.

My observation (on my second grow) is that the plant that you basically flush to death results in hardly any chlorophyll, so the smoke that you get off only a few days drying is immediately smooth. I imagine the cure would be hardly worth bothering with, or is that not the case? I'm about to find out anyway.

The other plants of the same phenotype don't smoke as powerful, and they finished green. I am growing Frisian Dew.

Obviously there are other factors to consider, such as sun/light aspect (I grew outdoors and indoors), phenotype variant, and maybe different amounts of mycorrhizae in the soil to begin (I ran out of product and couldn't be arsed to go back to the garden centre that day - lol).

But that's the theory - flush hard to finish early and you get a short-order smoke that is smooth and strong.
 
My observation (on my second grow) is that the plant that you basically flush to death results in hardly any chlorophyll, so the smoke that you get off only a few days drying is immediately smooth. I imagine the cure would be hardly worth bothering with, or is that not the case? I'm about to find out anyway.


absolute myth. feed right to the end. the cure determines everything as far as harshness in the smoke. you can't flush chlorophyll out, that's all the cure.


But that's the theory - flush hard to finish early and you get a short-order smoke that is smooth and strong.


definitely no.
 
What are you doing when you flush? Removing nutrients from the roots so there is nothing to send to the leaves but water. The rest of the plant never gets anything from the roots, only the leaves. Leaves turn minerals into glucose and hormones for the rest of the plant. Flushing is a forced deficiency. NPK and mag are mobile so they are all sent to the sugar leaves to save the buds that in theory hold the seeds. So by flushing you are prematurely starving the buds of both glucose and flower growth hormones while driving all the harsh salts into the bud.

What happens when you feed up to harvest? Leaves continue to make glucose to be stored in the bud and used for development. You cut the stem severing the roots and hang upside down. Nutrient and water uptake stops with no roots. Gravity drains the glucose from leaves and stems into the buds. Without the roots continually adding water the NPK store can not be mobilized. Chlorophyll is immobile. Magnesium binds to the chlorophyll decomposing into gas and glucose. Drying is the process of draining glucose rich water into the bud where it is absorbed. Curing is the process of drawing that water out so it is consistently spread through out the buds.

This isn't an opinion. Flush absolutely and substantially decreases yield. Under just the right conditions, it can have a minuscule effect on quality. Barely outside standard deviation. Search you tube for "Bruce Bugbee Series – Effects of Flushing". If you want to learn more he is good at explaining the science of growing.
 
Thanks for your response. Do you have any links to support your opinion on this matter? I can't find any to support my anecdote.


it's been covered extensively on this board. just do a quick search. you'll find loads and loads and loads of threads on it, with links galore.
 
What are you doing when you flush? Removing nutrients from the roots so there is nothing to send to the leaves but water. The rest of the plant never gets anything from the roots, only the leaves. Leaves turn minerals into glucose and hormones for the rest of the plant. Flushing is a forced deficiency. NPK and mag are mobile so they are all sent to the sugar leaves to save the buds that in theory hold the seeds. So by flushing you are prematurely starving the buds of both glucose and flower growth hormones while driving all the harsh salts into the bud.

What happens when you feed up to harvest? Leaves continue to make glucose to be stored in the bud and used for development. You cut the stem severing the roots and hang upside down. Nutrient and water uptake stops with no roots. Gravity drains the glucose from leaves and stems into the buds. Without the roots continually adding water the NPK store can not be mobilized. Chlorophyll is immobile. Magnesium binds to the chlorophyll decomposing into gas and glucose. Drying is the process of draining glucose rich water into the bud where it is absorbed. Curing is the process of drawing that water out so it is consistently spread through out the buds.

This isn't an opinion. Flush absolutely and substantially decreases yield. Under just the right conditions, it can have a minuscule effect on quality. Barely outside standard deviation. Search you tube for "Bruce Bugbee Series – Effects of Flushing". If you want to learn more he is good at explaining the science of growing.
I am not going to defend my findings with other posts that support 'flushing'. Last year I didn't flush, and I wanted to compare. I suppose that isn't bro-science, more like an experiment, so I guess it wasn't really a method.

I am always learning from more experienced growers, so thanks for your detailed post, especially the information about chlorophyll.

In my case I am feeding with organic nutrients in soil. Are the 'harsh salts' that you mention being driven into the buds by flushing more of a factor in grows with artificial fertilizers in water/synthetic media?

Also, the 'flushing', I am doing is bottled spring water with trace nutrients in the 10-50ml/L range - Ca, Mg, S, K, Cl, Bicarb, Nitrate - after the buds have gone through most of their swelling in mid-late flower. Presumably with the soil as a natural barrier the stored nutrients would be flushed slowly through the plant as it approaches harvest. For example, the Kwazulu that I started flushing a few weeks ago has shown marked nitrogen deficiency, but no other widespread nutrient deficiency until the last week - phosphorus (purple bud leaves), and potassium, maybe iron, and now it is squarely in the harvest window.

This was the plant about a week into flushing.
IMG_20241017_082054 (1).jpg


Now it has an autumnal look, that golden colour that Kwazulu is meant to take on. I would be interested to speculate how much bud mass/yield I may have lost by flushing perhaps a week too early.



The Frisian Dews were interesting because their different phenotypes meant for different calibrations of nutrient and water scheduling. And as it was my first time with this strain I could not predict when it would finish.

Anyway, this may be of interest. Thank you again.
 
In my case I am feeding with organic nutrients in soil. Are the 'harsh salts' that you mention being driven into the buds by flushing more of a factor in grows with artificial fertilizers in water/synthetic media?
The plant doesn't know or care if your liquid nutes are organic or synthetic. They are chemically identical. Carbon organics like bat guano and fish meal are a different only until microbes break them down. No matter what you feed, synthetic, organic, carbon organic, the root will always absorb the same chemical salt. With liquid fert you are not waiting for microbes to break down salts so over feeding is much easier. If you are over feeding with any source it will elevate salts and be noticeable in the final cured bud.

Also, the 'flushing', I am doing is bottled spring water with trace nutrients in the 10-50ml/L range - Ca, Mg, S, K, Cl, Bicarb, Nitrate - after the buds have gone through most of their swelling in mid-late flower.
You are correct, when flushing, you need to use cal mag micro nutrient water. There are times that flushing is needed like when accidentally over fed. It can also be used to balance growth and training. What nutrient and how much can boost or hinder different types of growth. Plants don't age and die like animals. They can live indefinitely. As flowing time increases they focus more energy on the flower and less on the veg parts that sustain them. In the last few weeks of flower it will send everything to the flowers adding flower mass. When the leaves stop using glucose to make chlorophyll or run low on N to make glucose they reduce glucose being sent to the flowers for growth. This signals veg is dying. Stress forces the plant to use any remaining resources to focus on ripening. You are trading yield for a quicker, premature, flower time.

If you time it correctly, when CBD,CBG levels are highest it can effect quality. Cannabinoids decompose. CBx decompose into THC before completely breaking down from O2 and light over time. This is why at 80% amber we have almost no CBx left and THC is decomposing faster than it is being made so dropping. A rapid conversion will leave more CBx unconverted and preserve more converted THC because it won't have time to break down. Causing a minor increase in cannabinoid quality.

That is a good looking south African. Nice colas.:goodjob:
 
CBx decompose into THC before completely breaking down from O2 and light over time. This is why at 80% amber we have almost no CBx left and THC is decomposing faster than it is being made so dropping. A rapid conversion will leave more CBx unconverted and preserve more converted THC because it won't have time to break down. Causing a minor increase in cannabinoid quality.
Not sure what you're saying here with your CBx. If you are suggesting that CBD, CBC, CBG, etc convert into THC, that's not how it works.

CBGa is the precursor to all of the other cannabinoids, so only it will convert, some into CBDa, some into CBCa, some into THCa, etc.

Then, with a combination of time and temperature, CBDa will convert into CBD, CBCa to CBC, etc. THCa will convert into THC and then continue on to degrade into CBN. CBD does not convert to THC, nor do any of the other CBx's with the exception of the initial CBGa.
 
Do you have any links to support your opinion on this matter? I can't find any to support my anecdote.
I am not @bluter nor have I spent the night in some advertised motel but here is the link to a thread related to the topic:
https://www.420magazine.com/community/threads/flushing-leaching-final-bud-swell.263589/

Jump ahead to this msg in that thread:
https://www.420magazine.com/community/threads/flushing-leaching-final-bud-swell.263589/page-14#post-5452323
 
Not sure what you're saying here with your CBx. If you are suggesting that CBD, CBC, CBG, etc convert into THC, that's not how it works.

CBGa is the precursor to all of the other cannabinoids, so only it will convert, some into CBDa, some into CBCa, some into THCa, etc.

Then, with a combination of time and temperature, CBDa will convert into CBD, CBCa to CBC, etc. THCa will convert into THC and then continue on to degrade into CBN. CBD does not convert to THC, nor do any of the other CBx's with the exception of the initial CBGa.
Yes, CBx was just a broad stroke of cannabinoids reafference without getting too far in the bio chemical weeds. Like referencing THC level when we don't want plants to produce THC, only THCa. We convert it into THC:bongrip:.

CBGa is first created,C21H32O2. Then that converts into cannabinoids. All cannabinoids have the same molecular formula C21H30O2. The only difference between them is proton energy, rearranging shells, changing the molecular shape. Photons are the energy source that determine what is created from CBGa. From a molecular point of view, as you add energy to shells CBGa expands into CBDa then may continue to expand into THCa. When the molecule stabilizes, will determine if it ultimately becomes CBDa or THCa.

Assuming your light is reasonably constant, time determines energy. Short flower time CBGa unconverted. More time converts CBGa into CBDa and unconverted CBGa. Longer time creates highest cannabinoid value with equal amounts CBGa, CBDa and THCa. More time and all CBGa converters into CBDa and THCa. This is the extent of the plant controlled conversions.

The environment is always converting cannabinoids with the oldest cannabinoids, CBGa and CBD, being the most effected. The intense light and high O2 levels at the trichomes can destroy up to 20% of the total cannabinoids produced over a long ripening period. Same reason we jar and black out cured bud. So a short early flower will preserve more cannabinoids. Primarily CBD and terpene decomposition, in this reasonably short time frame. The studies show that this is a vary minor effect on quality. Quality was quantified by increased cannabinoid values with out changing THC. They do all note a significant drop in yield. Some used blue light and others use nitrogen deprivation to stress the plant into an early rapid ripening cycle.
 
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