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Early veg light burn or deficiency?

Hello all,
Long time enthusiast, first time grower here

Opened up the cabinet today to find a sad sight on my Sugarcane.
I've been meaning to start a journal but I just haven't been able to find the time! Anyways, the current issue I'm running into is my first true leaves seem to have begun turning a yellowish/light green hue on the tips.

From everything I've read and gathered to me this seems to be either a Nitrogen or a light burn issue but as this is my first time round I don't really have the experience yet to be able to diagnose something like that with enough certainty. Any and all input is much appreciated! :love:

Here's what I'm workin' with:
Strain: Sugarcane by Inhouse Genetics
Light: 600W LED 18 inches from top
Medium: 1/3 coco, 1/3 perlite, 1/3 EWC

She popped her head out of the coco Oct. 29 so we're at day 12 now.

Slacking a bit on getting the RO filter so I've just been feeding her distilled 1-2 times a day when the cup dries out until I start seeing drips of runoff.

Another few issues I'm working on fixing with the environment are the temperature which has been in the 78-86 range and RH which is down at about 30%. Thinking about maybe getting a small water cooler? but I'll keep that to another discussion.
 

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Emilya

Member of the Month: Mar 2019
So, what are you planning to feed this plant? It has now used everything that was available in the EWC, and it is beginning to starve.
 
So, what are you planning to feed this plant? It has now used everything that was available in the EWC, and it is beginning to starve.
I'm giving building my own soil a go, so for the solo cups I used the coco, perlite, ewc mix I listed while I wait for my final mix to finish cooking so I can transplant.
The mix I made is basically the same as the solo cups with the addition of Mother Earths 5-2-2 meal mix.
I was planning on top dressing using the meal mix as needed but thought it wouldn't be until after my transplant, I guess I just didn't expect the little one to start starving so rapidly. Didn't start showing any subtle signs kind of just happened overnight.
I have high phos. bat guano I was going to make some tea out of but I suppose that's not going to help with the Nitrogen if that's what I'm lacking. I think I'm going to give top dressing with some meal mix a try before the next watering?
 

Emilya

Member of the Month: Mar 2019
First let me welcome you to the forum @Swamp Collective :welcome:

But I am afraid that I have some bad news for you. First of all you don't have anything close to soil there... you are in a soilless mix. You have added some EWC which has a tiny amount of everything in it, but what is available to the plant is quickly used up and the ewc goes away in the flush. If you were thinking of using the ewc to supply microlife, it was a good idea, but there is nothing in there for them to eat when they got there... and they will quickly die out in that environment. You can throw this and that at them, trying essentially to make your own nutes, but unless you are a master at this, this quasi organic method of yours doesn't have much of a chance. I am not saying it cant be done, but it would be much easier just to acquiesce to the nature of the medium you have chosen and find a good nutrient line to use in this soilless mix from here on out. May I suggest that you look into MegaCrop, as it seems to be all the rage right now and several of us are excited to see what we can do with it. Until next month you can even get a free sample of it. It sure would be leaps and bounds easier than what you are trying to accomplish, and of course are already having difficulties with.
 
First let me welcome you to the forum @Swamp Collective :welcome:

But I am afraid that I have some bad news for you. First of all you don't have anything close to soil there... you are in a soilless mix. You have added some EWC which has a tiny amount of everything in it, but what is available to the plant is quickly used up and the ewc goes away in the flush. If you were thinking of using the ewc to supply microlife, it was a good idea, but there is nothing in there for them to eat when they got there... and they will quickly die out in that environment. You can throw this and that at them, trying essentially to make your own nutes, but unless you are a master at this, this quasi organic method of yours doesn't have much of a chance. I am not saying it cant be done, but it would be much easier just to acquiesce to the nature of the medium you have chosen and find a good nutrient line to use in this soilless mix from here on out. May I suggest that you look into MegaCrop, as it seems to be all the rage right now and several of us are excited to see what we can do with it. Until next month you can even get a free sample of it. It sure would be leaps and bounds easier than what you are trying to accomplish, and of course are already having difficulties with.
Thank you, still trying to take in as much as I can while diving right in.
I'm sorry I phrased that incorrectly. Essentially trying to build an organically amended soilless mix. I know it's a road a little less traveled, and probably for good reason, but I decided I'd give this route a try since it appealed to me for several reasons and I've seen a few people on the forums using organically amended mixes with coco as the base with success.
I was under the assumption that the meal mix (fish, feather, bone, alfalfa, cotton seed, kelp meals with dolomite, gypsum, volcanic ash, and potassium sulfate), ewc, coco, perl. mix would be sufficient for veg. with the addition of a few teas and added meal mix toppings. Once in flower I was planning on using the Mother Earths Bloom mix as top dressing with different teas for feedings for additional nutrition and supported microblife.
I am kind of seeing how bottled nutes are probably the way to go with a soilless mixes as I'm getting further along, takes a lot of mystery mixing and soil building out of the equation and definitely allows for a much more straight forward feeding approach.
I've devoted most of my time these past few weeks trying to figure out different organic amendments to build this coco mix so my only worry for this lil lady I've got right now is getting a good line of bottled nutes on hand before she starves. I suppose I could see what lines the local hydro stores carries and get something to keep her going until I can get my hands on something better, I've been eyeing a lot people being very successful with the FloraFlex nute line as well.
I'll probably go with a Meal Mix top dressing and watering for tonight and hope it helps her out a little for tonight/tomorrow while I try to figure out the next step.

Thank you very much for your input!
 

Emilya

Member of the Month: Mar 2019
Yes, you are not the first to try this and when having difficulties they came here for advice. The first couple of times I saw this I flat out thought it couldnt work, but in the right hands it can... but it isn't easy by any means to get everything right as this requires a good deal of talent in reading the plants. A new gardener of weeds just doesn't have that experience to make this path you have chosen, an easy one. Good luck... and you might want to do a search on here for people who have done this sort of grow, and see how they did it.
 
I cant read it all.

EWC has enough of everything for a few weeks like this.

Coco has nothing, I like to use CPSM in my base mix.

If your watering 2x a day for as seedling. Thats WAY too much watering.

2x a week then roots fill the cup and up-pot to some real soil mix in a larger container.
Yes, I think it's as @Emilya stated above, I just hit day 13 so the EWC in my mix has probably run its course. I'm going to try top dressing with my Mother Earths 5-2-2 'grow' meal mix.

As far as the watering I know it sounds like a lot but the solo cup gets absolutely bone dry about every 12 hours, just kind of scary leaving it that dry.
 

bobrown14

Grow Journal of the Month: Dec 2017
Time to up pot for sure. You can stunt growth if they are drying out that fast.

Sometimes thats good if you are waiting for an empty space. You dont want to see a plant get droopy.

On the plants using up EWC in a few weeks. It doesn't work like that its not food per se but you can always add some more. Problem with adding fertilizer in small container you can kill your plants. You need some buffering capacity.
 

SmokingWings

Well-Known Member
@Swamp Collective, this is a fascinating way of growing the plant. I am surprised that no one who grows hydroponically has jumped in to help to identify what is going wrong with those leaf ends. The color of the photo seems off, probably from taking the picture with the LED on. Maybe try again with a regular room light instead of grow lights turned on while taking the photo.

Unless you want to go with a mineral soil base you are stuck with a hydroponic grow and that will make it hard for the Mother Earth amendments you have been thinking about to actually work. I cannot find all the info on just how much of the NPK in the products are water soluble and how much is insoluble. Those insoluble nutrients will need to be worked on by micro-organisms that will want the water retention and food from the soil.

Without those organisms the insoluble nutrients will just end up being flushed out of the soil each time water is applied and if you water till it runs out the bottom of the pot or container.

Some of the Mother Earth videos I looked at made it sound like their Mother Earth 5-2-2 Meal Mix and their Bloom Mix are meant to be added to a soil mix that includes mineral soil but it was not completely clear. However, there is an impressive list of ingredients in the products.

I am growing clones in 1 and 2 gallon pots with a compost soil mix and I supplement with a tea on a 7 to 15 day schedule. It sounds similar to what I think that you are trying to do.

Enjoy the rest of the day.
 
Time to up pot for sure. You can stunt growth if they are drying out that fast.

Sometimes thats good if you are waiting for an empty space. You dont want to see a plant get droopy.

On the plants using up EWC in a few weeks. It doesn't work like that its not food per se but you can always add some more. Problem with adding fertilizer in small container you can kill your plants. You need some buffering capacity.
I was sort of under the impression that coco based grows required quite a bit more watering due to the increased aeration of the medium, but you're right, I think with the approach I'm trying to take she'd be much better off in the 2 gallon at this point to take some of that stress off.

Big fan of your 'Cottage 420' journal by the way, got pretty deep into it this afternoon. My inspiration for this grow was from the same build a living soil approach. I have a tote sitting in my garage right now with coco, EWC, perlite, and a few cups 5-2-2 Mother Earths Bone Meal mix. I'm trying to cook this mixture to transplant the little ones into but I'm afraid the lack of the compost factor isn't allowing for this to happen.
 
@Swamp Collective, this is a fascinating way of growing the plant. I am surprised that no one who grows hydroponically has jumped in to help to identify what is going wrong with those leaf ends. The color of the photo seems off, probably from taking the picture with the LED on. Maybe try again with a regular room light instead of grow lights turned on while taking the photo.

Unless you want to go with a mineral soil base you are stuck with a hydroponic grow and that will make it hard for the Mother Earth amendments you have been thinking about to actually work. I cannot find all the info on just how much of the NPK in the products are water soluble and how much is insoluble. Those insoluble nutrients will need to be worked on by micro-organisms that will want the water retention and food from the soil.

Without those organisms the insoluble nutrients will just end up being flushed out of the soil each time water is applied and if you water till it runs out the bottom of the pot or container.

Some of the Mother Earth videos I looked at made it sound like their Mother Earth 5-2-2 Meal Mix and their Bloom Mix are meant to be added to a soil mix that includes mineral soil but it was not completely clear. However, there is an impressive list of ingredients in the products.

I am growing clones in 1 and 2 gallon pots with a compost soil mix and I supplement with a tea on a 7 to 15 day schedule. It sounds similar to what I think that you are trying to do.

Enjoy the rest of the day.
Thank you for taking interest!
I'll add more pictures now but the brittleness of the older leaf tip leads me to think it may be a light/heat issue.

I am only using the coco, EWC, perlite mixture for the solo cup portion of the grow. I'm attempting to let some of the same mixture cook, with the addition of Mother Earths 5-2-2 Meal Mix, for a few weeks before I transplant the girls into it. I plan on using teas as well, I guess I was expecting the EWC to be sufficient for just a bit longer without the need for the transplanting/tea feeding schedule. I'm definitely going to look into the water solubility of the nutrients in the Meal Mix now that you bring it up. I may have played myself a bit with my theory in my medium build.

I was honestly going a bit based off what Mr.Kanucks does with his Gaia Green Dry amendments but instead of just top dressing my coco I'm trying to pre-amend.
 

SmokingWings

Well-Known Member
I am only using the coco, EWC, perlite mixture for the solo cup portion of the grow. I'm attempting to let some of the same mixture cook, with the addition of Mother Earths 5-2-2 Meal Mix, for a few weeks before I transplant the girls into it. I plan on using teas as well, I guess I was expecting the EWC to be sufficient for just a bit longer without the need for the transplanting/tea feeding schedule. I'm definitely going to look into the water solubility of the nutrients in the Meal Mix now that you bring it up. I may have played myself a bit with my theory in my medium build.
The problem the way I see it is that the soil mix does not have anything in it to hold a colony of micro-organisms that will slowly feed on the Meal Mix and Bloom Mix and end up making the insoluble nutrients available to the plant. In the long run I figure that you will have to think of this as a hydro style grow.

Here's what we're looking like today, real stunted by my measures :(
The super brittle tips keep making me thing light burn though, tried raising the light a few inches.
If it was light burning the leaves wouldn't the brittle tips be at the ends of the top leaves and not the oldest leaves at the bottom? Plus, it looks like the brittle area has advanced across more of the leaf in the photo from yesterday as compared to the photo from Sunday.

Nothing wrong with hydro styles of growing. Those are going to becoming bigger each year for growing just about everything. Since I like growing in something that could be considered a more natural soil I have to look for possible suggestions from those growing methods. The plant cannot find the nutrients it needs in the mix now since the EWC have reached their limited amounts. When you transplant the plant will then have a new supply of nutrients but I believe that you will end up with the same sorts of problems when that batch of EWC has been depleted.

There are a couple of diagrams that are popular references. Do a search for the Cannabis Nutrient Deficiencies and Excesses diagram either on this message board or on the web. It should show up with that title and it shows the deficiency on pictures of the entire plant. There is another popular one which shows the problems as they appear on leaves themselves. Maybe someone knows the name or location of that one.
 

SmokingWings

Well-Known Member
I was honestly going a bit based off what Mr.Kanucks does with his Gaia Green Dry amendments but instead of just top dressing my coco I'm trying to pre-amend.
I watched the video and the system seems to be working for him. One thing that I watched for and did not see, or missed seeing, is the formula he used for his base soil mix. I heard coco but no mention of perlite, vermiculite, peat moss or any thing else.

What he is doing and showing makes sense. What I saw on the Mother Earth videos makes sense. But, after watching I still get the feeling that something is missing. Gotta give this some more thought.

Maybe a tea of some sort applied now would help while you wait for the other mix to finish cooking? Here is one. Use the Grow Meal Mix and a half gallon of water. Add a tablespoon, just a bit mounded up or even heaping and put that in the water. Let it sit there for a day, stirring frequently or in a jug that can be capped and then shaken. After about 24 hours give a bit of that to the plant and watch. If nothing bad happens give it some more the next day. You could adjust the amount of Mix and water if you do not want to make up a half gallon at a time.

Only downside is that this might cause the problem to get worse or a different problem shows up. Since you are at a standstill any attempt to help, done carefully, seems to be better than waiting to see if the problem goes away when you transplant. Up to you.
 

NOOOBIENOT

Well-Known Member
Hello , that is not light burn the leaves would be cupping like a taco 1st , this plant is starving , you are trying to grow half between a soil and a hydroponic grow , you will need to pick a side and go with it , put those plants in to a larger pot and go with 1 style of grow either way and feed them , there are lots of organic bottle nutes available on line , powder organic nutes are excellent but they need microbes to help break them down and that takes time , you plant needs food now , there is nothing in that mix for the microbes to feed on hence they die quickly , unsulphered black strap molasses helps feed the micro colony for soil , not sure about in coco as i think it will just get washed out , watering twice a day means you need a larger pot if it dries out that quick and try using a cloth pot they tend to be a little more forgiving if you happen to over water .
 
The problem the way I see it is that the soil mix does not have anything in it to hold a colony of micro-organisms that will slowly feed on the Meal Mix and Bloom Mix and end up making the insoluble nutrients available to the plant. In the long run I figure that you will have to think of this as a hydro style grow.


If it was light burning the leaves wouldn't the brittle tips be at the ends of the top leaves and not the oldest leaves at the bottom? Plus, it looks like the brittle area has advanced across more of the leaf in the photo from yesterday as compared to the photo from Sunday.

Nothing wrong with hydro styles of growing. Those are going to becoming bigger each year for growing just about everything. Since I like growing in something that could be considered a more natural soil I have to look for possible suggestions from those growing methods. The plant cannot find the nutrients it needs in the mix now since the EWC have reached their limited amounts. When you transplant the plant will then have a new supply of nutrients but I believe that you will end up with the same sorts of problems when that batch of EWC has been depleted.

There are a couple of diagrams that are popular references. Do a search for the Cannabis Nutrient Deficiencies and Excesses diagram either on this message board or on the web. It should show up with that title and it shows the deficiency on pictures of the entire plant. There is another popular one which shows the problems as they appear on leaves themselves. Maybe someone knows the name or location of that one.
You're right, the brittleness has continued to spread throughout the entirety of the bottom leaves and continuing to move onto the top. The 5-2-2 top dressing I did a few days ago didn't seem to have much effect.
Yesterday I transplanted into the 2 gallon with my mix that's been "cooking" for the last 15-17 days or so that contains everything the solo cups did, with the addition of the 5-2-2 that's pre-amended into the mix.

I did a little more searching into the meal mix tea you suggested and it seems likes there's a few people out there that have tried similar teas with success so I took your advice on that as well and put 2 tablespoon of the Mother Earths 5-2-2 in 1 gallon of distilled water and have been shaking that occasionally. Will try to feed with that when its ready today. Just hoping she makes it through the stress of this transplant and all the lack of nutrition.

Hello , that is not light burn the leaves would be cupping like a taco 1st , this plant is starving , you are trying to grow half between a soil and a hydroponic grow , you will need to pick a side and go with it , put those plants in to a larger pot and go with 1 style of grow either way and feed them , there are lots of organic bottle nutes available on line , powder organic nutes are excellent but they need microbes to help break them down and that takes time , you plant needs food now , there is nothing in that mix for the microbes to feed on hence they die quickly , unsulphered black strap molasses helps feed the micro colony for soil , not sure about in coco as i think it will just get washed out , watering twice a day means you need a larger pot if it dries out that quick and try using a cloth pot they tend to be a little more forgiving if you happen to over water .
You are absolutely correct, I think the dry amendments aren't getting enough time to properly break down in the coco, I was hoping the EWC would be enough to counter that but I'm coming to realize more and more the compost component is probably one of the most important in organically built soils/mediums for the reason that it creates the environment in which the amendments get to do their thing.
 

SmokingWings

Well-Known Member
..... I think the dry amendments aren't getting enough time to properly break down in the coco, I was hoping the EWC would be enough to counter that but I'm coming to realize more and more the compost component is probably one of the most important in organically built soils/mediums for the reason that it creates the environment in which the amendments get to do their thing.
With some work and a tiny bit of luck it can only get better from here.
 

SmokingWings

Well-Known Member
@Swamp Collective,I went to the closest grow store yesterday to see if the owner was able to find some specific saucers I was looking for (and probably out of production). Yep, they were in. Started talking to one of the guys about growing in general and the differences between peat moss and coco coir, specifically the water retention differences between coco and peat.

He really likes growing in a coco mix and I got the impression that he is doing what you are trying to do. I will stop by later next week and see if he is working and ask him some questions directly aimed at his grow method which is I think will be similar to what you want to try doing.

Enjoy your weekend.
 
@Swamp Collective,I went to the closest grow store yesterday to see if the owner was able to find some specific saucers I was looking for (and probably out of production). Yep, they were in. Started talking to one of the guys about growing in general and the differences between peat moss and coco coir, specifically the water retention differences between coco and peat.

He really likes growing in a coco mix and I got the impression that he is doing what you are trying to do. I will stop by later next week and see if he is working and ask him some questions directly aimed at his grow method which is I think will be similar to what you want to try doing.

Enjoy your weekend.
Yeah it seems there's definitely people out there trying to run the same method, and maybe with great success, just not much documentation of it on the forums.
 
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