electrical problems

[Proliferation]

Not Hog, but a few questions come up..

The first thing some of preach is ...Before you buy a light, before you buy a fan, before you buy a PH meter....BUY A CALCULATOR!!! AND USE IT TO CALCULATE THE REQUIRED AMPS REGARDLESS OF THE VOLTAGE!!

Also be advised, at that load, your meter is gonna need new bearings !!!(I know...old school with the wheels) If your planning on running stealth, your screwed, your bill is go out of sight!!
I dont know of a state you can legally grow that much pot in.

Did the electrician add an additional 240v circuit? Is he an electrician?

Thanks for the feedback. I AM doing the math now and why I am asking around before I spend thousands in grow equip. I am not an electrician however and understanding the in's and out's of what to expect helps me better relay what I want to my electrician. Additionally, regarding electricity and using a lot of it. I know people right now who have electric bills in excess of $3,000 per month and my experience with this is that so long as you pay your bill on time, all the time, the electric company does not get involved....think of how much they profit from grow operations that pay their bills. I would love to hear a real story disputing this but most investigations come from LEO being tipped off and NOT JUST bc you use a lot of electricity.

The electrician is a CO licensed electrician who works with a lot of Med Growers (confidentially agreements) to help set up electricity to grow spaces. I live in CO which is pretty much a free for all right now. If you have a med card holder sigh their caregiver rights over to you, you can grow their allotted 6 plants by law and the more people who sign their caregiver rights over to you the more plants you can grow. I imagine this will stop eventually with more regulation but its seriously a free for all in this state right now.

The 240v and the 120v circuits are both dedicated to the grow space.

 

[Proliferation]

sounds like your system is very similar to mine. in regards to the lights, they are gonna pull roughly 5 amps per light @ 240vac. so your lamp circuit draw is 20 amps continuous. it would be unsafe to try and pull 20 amps continuous from a 20 amp breaker, so you are gonna need 30 amp breakers for your 240vac light circuit. fyi there will be two breakers linked together for your 240v circuit. good luck!

Thanks for the feedback Hogdady, seriously appreciate it man!!

What you are telling me is what I suspected based on the math but bc it was close was hoping to keep it all as is. Just to clarify the way I am doing the math: watts/volts = amps. I also understand that if the math comes out to 19.5 amps that, that would not be acceptable on 20amp circuit. I'm not electrician but I know a few things and try to play it safe.

The 240v circuit is linked to 2-20amp breakers on my service panel, like you suspected.

So you think if I had him up those breakers to 2-30amp breakers for that 240v circuit I would be ok? I ask bc my next question is with respect to the cable and if you think its a good idea to bump up breaker size if the wire is only designed for a 20amp load? I'm not sure what is there now for cable and will ask my electrician when he comes back tomorrow morning.

The more info I can get today the better so please don't be shy with (quality) info.

Cheers

 

[Screwnuts33]

Thanks for the feedback Hogdady, seriously appreciate it man!!

What you are telling me is what I suspected based on the math but bc it was close was hoping to keep it all as is. Just to clarify the way I am doing the math: watts/volts = amps. I also understand that if the math comes out to 19.5 amps that, that would not be acceptable on 20amp circuit. I'm not electrician but I know a few things and try to play it safe.

The 240v circuit is linked to 2-20amp breakers on my service panel, like you suspected.

So you think if I had him up those breakers to 2-30amp breakers for that 240v circuit I would be ok? I ask bc my next question is with respect to the cable and if you think its a good idea to bump up breaker size if the wire is only designed for a 20amp load? I'm not sure what is there now for cable and will ask my electrician when he comes back tomorrow morning.

The more info I can get today the better so please don't be shy with (quality) info.

Cheers

Do not up the breaker size on wire designed for a 20amp breaker. Typically a 20amp breaker will have 12ga wire. 30amp breaker needs 10ga wire. Do not try to skimp on wire. Hot wire will burn your house down. Also don't run Romex through conduit. Conduit is for loose wire.

 

[Proliferation]

Thanks! That's correct, I have wire run through all my conduit and not NM type II cable... commonly referred to its brand name of Romex.

i just need to know the size of the wire that is there and if it would be cool to use 30 amp breaker for it. Additionally, if the wire was only designed for 20amps and I was drawing all 20 amps but not more, would that be ok?

I ask bc the 240v circuit is about at its max now and just barely needs to be beefed up. Thus, could an heavier duty breaker do the job even with wire designed for 20amps if only 20amps will be loaded to the wire? Could be pushing it but exactly why I'd like to get the conversation going.

Thanks!

 

[Hogdady]

I ask bc the 240v circuit is about at its max now and just barely needs to be beefed up. Thus, could an heavier duty breaker do the job even with wire designed for 20amps if only 20amps will be loaded to the wire?

although the existing wire might be alright, this is not an area that you want to take chances with. all you have to do is watch the news and see how many gro-ops go up in flames from electrical fires. i would strongly urge you to up your wire ga to support the capacity of the new breaker. a well thought out and executed plan at this point could save your ass later!

 

[Proliferation]

although the existing wire might be alright, this is not an area that you want to take chances with. all you have to do is watch the news and see how many gro-ops go up in flames from electrical fires. i would strongly urge you to up your wire ga to support the capacity of the new breaker. a well thought out and executed plan at this point could save your ass later!

completely agree. I guess I just need to find out if the wire is 12g or 10g. If 10g than I'll have electrician install couple 30amp breakers like you suggested and be done with it. If 12g than I will leave the circuit as is and not run all the lights on that circuit. The room is going to have 4-1K lights its just a matter of designing the electrical system to have capacity to handle it.

Certainly let me know if you think of anything additional in the meantime. I will check back tomorrow morning to update everyone with the final outcome.

 

[Hogdady]

completely agree.

your a good man Charlie Brown!

 

[Proliferation]

sounds like your system is very similar to mine.

What kind of ballasts are you using? I've been eying 1,000 watt Lumatek's but 4 of them won't be cheap so want to make sure I get a decent brand. I've read a few bad things about Lumatek and RF issues...which is no good for me bc I have Sat TV. This will be my first go with electronic ballasts so want to do it right.

 

[Baja Big Dog]

Im running Lumatek switchable 240 ballasts at 1000 watts, great ballast, one nice feature is the super lumin switch, you can get one more grow cycle out of a bulb!!

These draw 7 amps, so again, dont use OHMs law without knowing the losses your dealing with with any solid state device, check the currants, and size accordingly, and yes, up sizing the wire cost pennies if you do it right the first time.

 

[Proliferation]

These draw 7 amps, so again, don't use OHMs law without knowing the losses your dealing with with any solid state device, check the currants, and size accordingly, and yes, up sizing the wire cost pennies if you do it right the first time.

Damn!! 7 amps each, that's more than I expected. I can't find much detail about the actual amperage load on Lumatek ballasts.

 

[Baja Big Dog]

Damn!! 7 amps each, that's more than I expected. I can't find much detail about the actual amperage load on Lumatek ballasts.

For some unknown reason, the numbers are hard to come by...I went to the mfg for the numbers.

Im only running one thouy though.

 

[Proliferation]

For some unknown reason, the numbers are hard to come by...I went to the mfg for the numbers.

lumatek - Products

That is the mfg website and they only have the key specs/special features listed for the first 3 products in the products section....the rest are blank. I was looking for specific mfg specs for 1,000watt 240v ballast. I've read a TON of BAD things about LUMATEK and although there are plenty of success stories, this particular brand seems to be plagued with more tales of horror than anything else. I understand every brand has its issues but that one seems to stand out a bit. Guess the hunt is on and now that I consider noise and slight increase in temp is not a factor (growing underground) I may just go with good old magnetic ballasts. I've seen quality built magnetics last a decade.

Hogdady mentioned approx 5amps per 1-K lamp and just want to make sure that is close since Baja Big Dog, you claim 7 amps.....could be difference between ballast or then again, who knows? Again, I'm sifting through these details now bc in the middle of wiring the room and want to make sure I have enough capacity in there. I guess if I had all my equip I would know exactly what the amps would be but part of not buying equip early was to do the wiring first to be certain I had it all right...oh the joys of grow rooms on your own, haha. Without getting into tons of details the room is not close to the panel which is either going to require running larger wire to existing circuit or new wire for an additional circuit(s).

 

[Proliferation]

your a good man Charlie Brown!

Here is the update after my electrician (Licensed 18yrs) was out this morning...with his code book . I think he was a little offended at first but once we got into all the details and numbers he realized everyone here had a point.

We found that 12g wire is rated for 24amps on the derating scale. Derating scale is for continuous loads - a continuous load by definition being anything greater than 3 hours. We also found that the code allowed us to up to the next size overcurrent device (breaker) if the load was to be greater than the existing 20amp overcurrent device (breaker) installed. The next size was 25amp breaker and that would be maxing out that circuit safely by code.

HOWEVER, here is the kicker. Next to the score of 24amps on the detrating scale there is an asterisk mark. When you follow this to correct page there is a paragraph that mentions running the wire through conduit (which I am) and thus having to meet 3 additional standards. One standard you must meet (on the 12g wire chart) is not loading the conductor to greater than 80% of the derated score of 24amps (which I'm pretty sure has already been mentioned in this thread). 80% of 24amps is 19.2amps. Which means by code he actually CANNOT up the overcurrent device to the next size and that it must remain as is on a 20amp circuit, through that conduit...for that particular wire size.

So what does this all mean for me? We removed everything that was currently in the conduit and are starting from scratch w/ 10g wire capable of the 30amp breaker I want for the single 240v circuit. I have a large conduit already installed so this makes his life a little easier and we have room to run 2 - 120v 20amp circuits as well.

So in the end my room will have two 120v 20amp circuits AND a single 240v 30amp circuit. The two 120v circuits are for fans, blowers, pumps...maybe a fluro for a mother room, misc. The single 240v 30amp circuit is for powering a single timer and all four 1Kwatt lights...timer staggers each of 4 lamps start up FYI .

Thanks again for all the help on this one and especially to HogDady since I directed this 240v question to you in the first place

When I get the room completed and a crop in there I will definately create a journal. I have PitViper to thank for convincing me to use the ebb and grow as his set up is freakin legit! Although I think I will be using either one larger reservoir or if I can't find one, 2-55gal reservoirs to accommodate my number of sites which at this point is approx 30-36. The ebb and grow mfg says its capable of up to 48 sites off that one 55gal res but after reading PitVipers journal it's pretty clear that it can't handle more than approx 20-25 sites that are not jam packed together.

 

[Proliferation]

For some unknown reason, the numbers are hard to come by...I went to the mfg for the numbers.

Really? I'm being told a completely different story from Lumatek. See below for email I received this morning from Chris Leonard at Lumatek regarding the 1,000watt 240v ballast;

Hello Chris,

See below for information regarding the amp draw with the different setting on the new Dial-A-Watt Lumatek 1,000W/240V: Model No. LK1TH240
Super Lumens 4.58amps
1000W 4.42amps
750W 3.25amps
600W 2.67amps

The new Lumatek 1,000W/240V ballast consumes approx. 1080W of power and delivers 1020W to the lamp. With the new Dial-A-Watt Lumateks you can increase or decrease the ballast's input/output electrical values by setting the dial to the desired power (i.e. - the new 1,000W/240V ballast has a 600W, 750W, 1,000W and super lumens setting). If you have any other questions or would like to speak with us in person please feel free to call us on Monday.

Thank you,
Chris
Lumatek Lighting
1.866.369.8943

 

[Hogdady]

See below for information regarding the amp draw with the different setting on the new Dial-A-Watt Lumatek 1,000W/240V: Model No. LK1TH240
Super Lumens 4.58amps
1000W 4.42amps
750W 3.25amps
600W 2.67amps

these numbers are about what i expected. i'm not sure whether these are electronic or digital ballasts, but they both typically have a efficiency of 90% or better, as opposed to magnetic ballasts in the 80 - 85% range. glad you chose to up the wire ga for your lites. good call and good luck on your gro!

 

[Proliferation]

glad you chose to up the wire ga for your lites. good call and good luck on your gro!

It's costing me though. I have to run wire just over 100' from the panel through buried conduit under the house and then to the space underground...thank god there is conduit already in place we can use. Between his labor to do all this plus all the parts I purchased I'm looking at about $650-$750

oh and those ratings above are all for that one model ballast that has capability of switching to different settings.

 

[Screwnuts33]

It's costing me though. I have to run wire just over 100' from the panel through buried conduit under the house and then to the space underground...thank god there is conduit already in place we can use. Between his labor to do all this plus all the parts I purchased I'm looking at about $650-$750

oh and those ratings above are all for that one model ballast that has capability of switching to different settings.

That is some money well spent. Expensive but worth the piece of mind that you and your home are safe.

Something many do not realize is that if you have a fire caused by an illegal grow your insurance will not payoff on any claims.

 

[Proliferation]

That is some money well spent. Expensive but worth the piece of mind that you and your home are safe.

Something many do not realize is that if you have a fire caused by an illegal grow your insurance will not payoff on any claims.

It's a bit more than I wanted to spend to be totally honest but felt like I had to go for it to have the piece of mind like you say, not to mention additional safety. It looks like w 4-1,000watt ballasts on 240v will pull just under 20amps in total, which will be all good on a 10g 30amp circuit.

Thanks again to everyone who helped out with this!

 

[rnwy29erclr]

What kind of ballasts are you using? I've been eying 1,000 watt Lumatek's but 4 of them won't be cheap so want to make sure I get a decent brand. I've read a few bad things about Lumatek and RF issues...which is no good for me bc I have Sat TV. This will be my first go with electronic ballasts so want to do it right.

hey pro, with 4-1k watt lights sounds like your grow is gonna be large, i dont think you have to worry about watching t.v.

 

[Baja Big Dog]

Here is the update after my electrician (Licensed 18yrs) was out this morning...with his code book . I think he was a little offended at first but once we got into all the details and numbers he realized everyone here had a point.

We found that 12g wire is rated for 24amps on the derating scale. Derating scale is for continuous loads - a continuous load by definition being anything greater than 3 hours. We also found that the code allowed us to up to the next size overcurrent device (breaker) if the load was to be greater than the existing 20amp overcurrent device (breaker) installed. The next size was 25amp breaker and that would be maxing out that circuit safely by code.

HOWEVER, here is the kicker. Next to the score of 24amps on the detrating scale there is an asterisk mark. When you follow this to correct page there is a paragraph that mentions running the wire through conduit (which I am) and thus having to meet 3 additional standards. One standard you must meet (on the 12g wire chart) is not loading the conductor to greater than 80% of the derated score of 24amps (which I'm pretty sure has already been mentioned in this thread). 80% of 24amps is 19.2amps. Which means by code he actually CANNOT up the overcurrent device to the next size and that it must remain as is on a 20amp circuit, through that conduit...for that particular wire size.

So what does this all mean for me? We removed everything that was currently in the conduit and are starting from scratch w/ 10g wire capable of the 30amp breaker I want for the single 240v circuit. I have a large conduit already installed so this makes his life a little easier and we have room to run 2 - 120v 20amp circuits as well.

So in the end my room will have two 120v 20amp circuits AND a single 240v 30amp circuit. The two 120v circuits are for fans, blowers, pumps...maybe a fluro for a mother room, misc. The single 240v 30amp circuit is for powering a single timer and all four 1Kwatt lights...timer staggers each of 4 lamps start up FYI .

Thanks again for all the help on this one and especially to HogDady since I directed this 240v question to you in the first place

When I get the room completed and a crop in there I will definately create a journal. I have PitViper to thank for convincing me to use the ebb and grow as his set up is freakin legit! Although I think I will be using either one larger reservoir or if I can't find one, 2-55gal reservoirs to accommodate my number of sites which at this point is approx 30-36. The ebb and grow mfg says its capable of up to 48 sites off that one 55gal res but after reading PitVipers journal it's pretty clear that it can't handle more than approx 20-25 sites that are not jam packed together.

My research was over a year ago, and I think the numbers I had were from 120v ballasts...my bad....