Email from Keith Stroup of NORML; is this acceptable behavior?

[hossua34]

Hey guys. I haven't posted here in over two years, but I'm going to now because I am so upset I don't know where else to turn.

Below is an email exchange that I just had with Keith Stroup, "legal counsel" for NORML (although how this guy made it to that position is beyond me). What happened was, I sent an email to the main NORML address expressing some displeasure with the way NORML was handling TV spots. I could have been less of a smartass, yes. But I TRULY did not think I said anything that offensive.

Stroup responded, from him NORML email address, by calling me a "rude and ignorant ass", a loser and a fool.

Where does this son of a bitch get the brass balls to talk like this to someone who makes NO money and still donates monthly? What kind of progress can we expect when anyone with a dissenting voice gets treated like shit?

Please read the message below and tell me I'm wrong. I am shaking a bit I'm so mad. What a fucking betrayal from somebody who I thought could be trusted to speak carefully and rationally, and always represent us well...

Congrats, Keith. You've ensure that NORML will never get another penny from me.

-----------------------------------------------------------
My email to NORML:
-----------------------------------------------------------

To whom it may concern,

I am a college student, and I don't have much money. But over the past two months I have donated $20 to NORML, for the purposes of airing pro-legalization television ads. The other day, there was an article in the NORML blog about how the NORML TV spots were "ready to hit the air", or something to that effect. That article raved on and on about how successful the ad contest was, and how much money had been raised, and that was it.

Am I missing something here?

A couple months ago there was another NORML blog article about the various cable TV packages that could be purchased for FAR less than the total amount that NORML says has already been raised. Why are the ads not running NOW, in that case? President Obama, at a town hall forum, just addressed several online questions directed at him about legalizing pot. When he brought up these questions the audience laughed. To me, that says that the average person still sees legalization as a joke and we have to reverse the propaganda wars before we have a prayer of getting anything really changed.

It is indescribably frustrating to have all the facts in my mind, and to KNOW that if the American public knew the truth - about the history of prohibition, about cannabis' true effects, and about the costs of the drug war - we would already have legalized cannabis. Yet I see chronic inaction on the part of our legalization lobbies (no pun intended). To me, NORML and the MPP are indicative of what is wrong with a sadly large percentage of those who want legalization: they love talking, they're full of ideas, but when the time for action comes, they sit around with their thumbs up their asses.

That is what NORML and MPP are doing. They are sitting around with their thumbs up their asses. If they have the money to buy cable TV ads (as they've indicated in blogs that they do), and they've already chosen the ads, then why in the hell are they not on our TV screens right now? You buy the airtime, you supply the spot. It's very simple. If you encounter resistance to the substance of the ads, you take the stations to court for denying you the consistutionally-granted right to speak on a legitimate political issue. After all, NORML and MPP claim to have masses of lawyers behind them, right?

Which brings up another good question: why don't NORML and MPP consolidate? They share a common goal, so why not share resources and become doubly effective?

There are too many questions right now for me to be overly hopeful about the prospect of legalization. And that is devastating to me, as it must be to many others, because we KNOW in our hearts and in our minds that with competent leadership and a real plan, legalization could easily be achieved within a matter of years.

Sincerely,

Adam Y.
Columbus, OH

----------------------------------------------
Mr. Stroups' response (Subject: "Your are a rude and ignorant ass")
----------------------------------------------

Adam:

Please do not contact us in the future, unless you begin with an apology for the insults you included in your email.

While you are busy insulting those of us who are working to legalize marijuana in America, we are busy building support for a host of state and federal proposals that would result in an end to the practice of arresting responsible marijuana smokers.

As you gain a little maturity, you will learn that when attempting to communicate with someone, one does not begin by calling them crude names. That is a tactic for fools and losers, and I expect you fall into both categories.

As I said, either respond with a sincere apology, or leave us alone.

Regards,

Keith Stroup, Esq.
NORML Legal Counsel
Marijuana Law Reform - NORML

 

[FreakNature]

Re: Keith Stroup of NORML is a GIANT asshole

If I spent my life working to reform Marijuana laws and you told me (without really knowing me or what I do) that I sit around with my thumb up my butt I think I would respond in a similar fashion. What you said was terribly offensive.

Try to see it from their perspective. Here's someone who should be on the team attacking them with personal insults.

Sorry dude. Lesson learned I hope. At least he gave you a way out. Instead of continuing to offend by calling Stroup personally a gigantic asshole on a public forum, why not man up and apologize, ask NORML how you can help?

 

[hossua34]

Re: Keith Stroup of NORML is a GIANT asshole

If I spent my life working to reform Marijuana laws and you told me (without really knowing me or what I do) that I sit around with my thumb up my butt I think I would respond in a similar fashion. What you said was terribly offensive.

Try to see it from their perspective. Here's someone who should be on the team attacking them with personal insults.

Sorry dude. Lesson learned I hope. At least he gave you a way out. Instead of continuing to offend by calling Stroup personally a gigantic asshole on a public forum, why not man up and apologize, ask NORML how you can help?

Ok, first off, I didn't say he (or anyone in particular) sat around with their thumbs up their asses. That was a metaphor for what I see as a GENERAL LACK OF ACTION in a specific area (the TV ads). It was not that bad, and I'm sure NORML has head much worse.

Secondly, I don't care if I'd told him I thought his mother was a whore; you just don't respond like that to someone who donates to you and who shares the same goals as yourself... At the heart of my email was a legitimate concern for the direction of the legalization movement, and instead he chose to focus on the "thumbs up their asses" comment and start trashing me like a 14-year-old on Youtube. I'd still love to have some of my questions answered.

If a customer at some store complained about a product, and a manager responded to them in this way, how long do you think their ass would last at that store? I basically consider myself a customer of NORML, because I donate money. The difference is I don't get anything out of it (except, so far, insults).

Third off, I already apologized (conditionally) for the thumbs comment, but I'm not donating another cent to NORML if this is acceptable behavior for their officers. I'll help in other ways (I'm already studying to be a criminal attorney to help victims of the drug war), or donate to MPP. I'm "on the team" as much as you are. But I also donate to NORML and feel perfectly entitled to tell them how I feel about their operation. I didn't deserve THAT in return.

 

[hossua34]

Also, FYI, I know plenty about what NORML does. I am well aware of all their state and local initiative efforts. I'm also aware that legalization initiatives in Colorado and Nevada failed recently.

Why do you think that is? Because the public is not behind them yet, that's why. To pass any MEANINGFUL initiative, you've got to win turn the propaganda tide FIRST.

That was what my email was about at heart. Stroup decided to turn it personal.

BOTTOM LINE, FreakNature, is this. You disagree with what I said; you have that right. You disagreed with me in an intelligent and polite manner. The Keith Stroup response to this thread would have gone like this: "Wow, you're really a stupid asshole aren't you? Why don't you get a life and piss off..."

And you AREN'T the one charged with representing a national, not-for-profit political lobby... He is. I'm sorry, but that is scary. If he responded like that to me, just think what he must say to any soccer moms who write in telling him they think he's corrupting the youth. And then imagine how their perception of the movement is shaped. Yikes.

 

[RooRman]

The fact is both of you could have been more polite.

You could have stated you are a contributing member and asked why the funds you donate were not being put into an action that you see as a worthwhile cause. Be succint and express your concerns, but courteous.

By the same token, he could have handled your email more professionally then he did. He could have instead explained and given you reasons why they have not yet gone about purchasing air time. Perhaps he was having a bad day, or latched onto the "thumbs" comment as a direct insult to all his hard work, which (to a degree) is insulting and somewhat confrontational. However, alienating those who are willing to contribute to the cause is never a good idea, especially in these times of economic woe.

Guys, if we are busy fighting amongst each other then nothing positive is ever going to get done. Divided we fall.

 

[hossua34]

The fact is both of you could have been more polite.

You could have stated you are a contributing member and asked why the funds you donate were not being put into an action that you see as a worthwhile cause. Be succint and express your concerns, but courteous.

By the same token, he could have handled your email more professionally then he did. He could have instead explained and given you reasons why they have not yet gone about purchasing air time. Perhaps he was having a bad day, or latched onto the "thumbs" comment as a direct insult to all his hard work, which (to a degree) is insulting and somewhat confrontational. However, alienating those who are willing to contribute to the cause is never a good idea, especially in these times of economic woe.

Guys, if we are busy fighting amongst each other then nothing positive is ever going to get done. Divided we fall.

Of course, you're right. I was pissed off a bit by Obama's skirting of the marijuana question at his town hall (which had just happened), and that contributed to my making the "thumbs up asses" metaphor. It was uncalled for.

The lack of professionalism with which he conducted himself in response is what floored me. As I told him in my reply, I've come to expect that kind of nonsense from drunks and cops... not from a supposedly well-educated member of the movement.

I don't intend to start a fight, either. I'm just so shaken up by this whole situation that I need somewhere to vent, and SOME type of reassurance. Thank you, because you gave it to me. I don't expect anyone to say I was 100% right b.c I wasn't.

 

[420]

do you really think just because you donate, you are allowed to talk to someone anyway you please?

i'm sorry, but that sounds like pimp mentality to me.

Secondly, I don't care if I'd told him I thought his mother was a whore; you just don't respond like that to someone who donates to you and who shares the same goals as yourself...

 

[hossua34]

do you really think just because you donate, you are allowed to talk to someone anyway you please?

i'm sorry, but that sounds like pimp mentality to me.

No, not any way I please. But I happen to think he overreacted in grand fashion to what I ACTUALLY said.

The whole point of that line you quoted of mine was that, if you're going to be a credible national organization, you have to deal professionally with whatever the public throws your way. If what I said gets that response, I fear what they might be saying to bible beaters who write in calling them evil, etc.

 

[Herb Fellow]

Dude, you need to roll up a biggie and chill.

 

[beefbowl]

what you wrote must have had a smidgen of truth to it. that's why he let it get to him.

don't listen to others who focus on your reaction to the betrayal rather than the betrayal itself--whether it was a betryal or not i don't know. if someone is stealing from me it really doesn't matter how i say "stop stealing from me". the person who is in the wrong has no right to demand proper respect. the thief can't say to the victim "i personally felt attacked by your tone of voice, and you owe me an apology". that is absurd. you called him out on something he probably was guilty of--making promises and not delivering. rather than admit wrongdoing, he tries to shift the focus on your maturity level. people do this all the time in the real world

 

[skitzle]

Dude, you need to roll up a biggie and chill.

I'm with Herb Fellow. It seems to me like you're over-reacting a bit. Sure he could have been a little more polite, but at the same time how would you feel if you were working day and night for a cause, and have someone come in and tell you you're not doing a good enough job.

Just kick back, and light up a bowl.

 

[tintala]

it would appear both were crude, however, i have faced vast opposition on ireport trying to educate ppl on cannabis/hemp, must say it progressed into mud slinging. I have learned, i needed to refine my wording, concepts and motivation. just opinions.

 

[hossua34]

Just got back from taking Herb Fellow's advice.

I'm gonna write him tomorrow and apologize for being such a dick. I saw his picture on NORML smokin' a big fattie and read that he was a criminal defense attorney also, like I want to be, and I can't really continue to be mad at him. Sure I think his response was uncalled for and unprofessional, but so was my e-mail.

In the end I'd just be fuckin' thrilled to have some of my questions answered; they really have said before that $3,400 would buy them so many ads on Comedy Central, CNN, Oxygen, etc.. And then last blog they said they'd raised over $11,000 but didn't announce any plans to launch the ads - just asked for more money.

I don't think those stations would win in court if they tried to block NORML's ads just because they are pro-pot reform. There are constitutional provisions and case law that say any network that allows TV spots for one side of an issue must allow the other side the chance to respond. Thus, if they refuse NORML's pro-legalization ads, they might have to pull Freevibe and AboveTheInfluence's bullshit too. As long as it's not a pro-drug ad, but a pro-reform ad (which NORML's is).

 

[nbk380]

i didn't see anything wrong w/what you said. you have the right to inquire as to how your money is spent when making donations!

also i think we have ALL had our thumbs up our asses too long!!!!

plus wow man you got admin on ya I think for no reason - you never called dudes mom a whore in the e-mail. just a fictional debate between two members.

along with never even starting off disrespecting dude or normal, just telling them who you was.

damn if i gave a donation i would damn sure think i had at least 1 say before they basically kicked me out.

i watch alot of tv and in 30 years on this planet i have never seen a pro-weed commercial.

i think they got you for your money and your beat. but who is this mpp and what are they doing?

i'm glad your gonna litigate for the good guys.

fuck apologizing -- nothing to apologize about.

i'll even apologize when - I - see a pro-weed commecial during south park or on cnn.

plus everyone who smokes weed always giggles when somone asks the president to legalize weed!!!

obama snickered himself and said that 'no' weed would not bail out the economy. that's all.

keep up the good fight hossua34!!!!!!

 

[nbk380]

I'm with Herb Fellow. It seems to me like you're over-reacting a bit. Sure he could have been a little more polite, but at the same time how would you feel if you were working day and night for a cause, and have someone come in and tell you you're not doing a good enough job.

Just kick back, and light up a bowl.

see this is why weed IS NOT legal!!!!

smokin weed does not solve any problems!!!!

smokin weed does not cure cancer!!!!!!

smokin weed JUST makes you feel better!!!!

i'll answer the question though.....

damn your firing me huh?

 

[skitzle]

smokin weed JUST makes you feel better!!!!

I, and I'm sure many others on this forum would respectfully disagree with you there. I find that I personally function much better on the whole after a couple freshly packed bowls. For example, I'm a university student and i can't tell you the last time i studied or took an exam without being stoned. I find i concentrate much better, and have an easier time understanding the material. I don't think weed only makes you feel better. I believe it has many more valuable uses.

 

[greenmonkey]

have you emailed him back and explained you situation? apoligizing isnt something you must do but saying youre sorry he took offense at your statement might help.
either way id like to hear an answer about their comericals.

 

[nbk380]

I, and I'm sure many others on this forum would respectfully disagree with you there. I find that I personally function much better on the whole after a couple freshly packed bowls. For example, I'm a university student and i can't tell you the last time i studied or took an exam without being stoned. I find i concentrate much better, and have an easier time understanding the material. I don't think weed only makes you feel better. I believe it has many more valuable uses.

wow-----maybe we shouldnt legalize it then.

 

[Jim Finnel]

online i think wording is much more important than if you were having an actual conversation. there are no facial expressions or tone of voice. if you'd been speaking face to face you'd probably have better understood one another, had a good conversation and maybe even have smoked a fatty.

imo you should appologize to him and then reask the questions. i know i'd like to hear the answers as much as i'd like to see the commercials.

 

[Geodesic]

It's not about social graces; it's about results. There's no arguing with the fact that NORML has basically been impotent. Bottom line is results and they haven't gotten any except in isolated cases. Has anyone seen any ads? I haven't. They're just not getting the job done and it's time to think about getting a more effective advocacy group or replacing some ineffective individuals.