First DWC Grow

[Midwest Grower]

Update: Dirty Girl’s new growth is looking pretty good, so far no new spots popping up. Shes really taking off, she has 11 days left till flip. Now Shorty....Shorty is still being a pain in the ass. Based on the chart I lowered her EC and PPM from 527 to 400. Her ppm and ph kept fluctuating mostly both rising. Now at 400ppm the PH Finally stabilized, gonna let her go a couple days see if she finally decides to start eating. Maybe drop her down to 300ppm idk what to do with her anymore. Do you guys add PH down everyday to bring the PH back to 5.8?

 

[Silverfox125]

I think you’re on the right track. The damage will not go away from the leaves. New growth looks good.

but I’m not a hydro guy so let’s let one of them chime in and we’ll both learn something

 

[West Hippie]

5.8 is the sweet spot for DWC , if your water level is falling and your EC ppm is also falling but your ph is rising you need to up the EC slightly!

 

[Midwest Grower]

5.8 is the sweet spot for DWC , if your water level is falling and your EC ppm is also falling but your ph is rising you need to up the EC slightly!

I’ve been reading topping off with Plain PH RO water. You recommend topping off with a higher PPM mix PHd?

 

[West Hippie]

I’ve been reading topping off with Plain PH RO water. You recommend topping off with a higher PPM mix PHd?

That’s what the hydro bible wants if your water level falls , EC falls and your ph rises . Raise the EC slightly the next time you top off . Try 10% of the manufacturers dosing. Your plants still appear to have a bad ph ! Need that sweet spot . I know when your learning DWC the ph is the toughest . My calimagic helps my ph stabilize in dwc at just 10% usage!

 

[Midwest Grower]

That’s what the hydro bible wants if your water level falls , EC falls and your ph rises . Raise the EC slightly the next time you top off . Try 10% of the manufacturers dosing. Your plants still appear to have a bad ph ! Need that sweet spot . I know when your learning DWC the ph is the toughest . My calimagic helps my ph stabilize in dwc at just 10% usage!

PH is killing me. I can set it to 5.8 and in a hour it’s up 6.3 or higher. That’s with tap and RO water. I’ve read some people mixing the nutes and letting them bubble for 24 hours before they PHing and setting the girls in. Im adding water at light on in 9 hours. I’ll mix a gallon 700ppm ph 5.8 see if that helps, Dirty Girl was at 600ppm.

 

[West Hippie]

PH is killing me. I can set it to 5.8 and in a hour it’s up 6.3 or higher. That’s with tap and RO water. I’ve read some people mixing the nutes and letting them bubble for 24 hours before they PHing and setting the girls in. Im adding water at light on in 9 hours. I’ll mix a gallon 700ppm ph 5.8 see if that helps, Dirty Girl was at 600ppm.

That’s what I started doing . Mix nutrients for an hour , bubble over night , adjust ph to 5.7-5.8 which ever comes first .

 

[West Hippie]

I’m at 750 ppm on this girl ph of 5.7 was 6.1 after bubbling overnight, 1 mL acid .
My MegaCrop nutrients are 4 grams a gallon of ro water plus 4 mL calimagic for the ro water .
That what I griped about to was the ph in dwc you’ll get this !

 

[iNeedMeds]

PH is killing me. I can set it to 5.8 and in a hour it’s up 6.3 or higher. That’s with tap and RO water. I’ve read some people mixing the nutes and letting them bubble for 24 hours before they PHing and setting the girls in. Im adding water at light on in 9 hours. I’ll mix a gallon 700ppm ph 5.8 see if that helps, Dirty Girl was at 600ppm.

Hey HungDaddy, I checked the numbers for actual ppm concentrations based off the label, and you should be running 15mL per gallon. You should also use RO water, and add the 5mL per gallon of cal-mag they suggest. Botanicare is only about 1/2 strength of similar all in one grow mix like Floranova grow. Funny enough, with the extra cal-mag added, it's got almost the exact ratios as floranova grow. You could have just bought floranova grow, and have the same thing.

Also, what conversion scale does your tester use for your ppm? Would be super helpful to know. Better yet, EC with no conversion. Honestly, I'm not a big fan of pH pens. Following procedures for pre-soak if needed, calibration, storage, and never putting it into RO or distilled water, are a must. For me, sometimes it's months between use, and weekly maintenance is a real pain. I highly suggest using tear-off strips to double check once you reach your final pH.

 

[Midwest Grower]

I’m at 750 ppm on this girl ph of 5.7 was 6.1 after bubbling overnight, 1 mL acid .
My MegaCrop nutrients are 4 grams a gallon of ro water plus 4 mL calimagic for the ro water .
That what I griped about to was the ph in dwc you’ll get this !

Im ordering another pump so I can bubble the nutes before PHing, Next grow I’ll try MC. I like the idea of one nute instead of 20 bottles. I appreciate the support!

 

[Midwest Grower]

Hey HungDaddy, I checked the numbers for actual ppm concentrations based off the label, and you should be running 15mL per gallon. You should also use RO water, and add the 5mL per gallon of cal-mag they suggest. Botanicare is only about 1/2 strength of similar all in one grow mix like Floranova grow. Funny enough, with the extra cal-mag added, it's got almost the exact ratios as floranova grow. You could have just bought floranova grow, and have the same thing.

Also, what conversion scale does your tester use for your ppm? Would be super helpful to know. Better yet, EC with no conversion. Honestly, I'm not a big fan of pH pens. Following procedures for pre-soak if needed, calibration, storage, and never putting it into RO or distilled water, are a must. For me, sometimes it's months between use, and weekly maintenance is a real pain. I highly suggest using tear-off strips to double check once you reach your final pH.

I’ve seen Flora Nova Bloom used a lot too. I read grows where they used it veg to harvest. I’m definitely interested, same as MC, one nute use. I’m not sure the conversion, it’s a cheap amazon PH pen, I have a 4.0 solution to calibrate before I use it. Last night I started double checking with the old school vile and drop tester. Any suggestions on how I might get the smaller one growing again?

 

[West Hippie]

Im ordering another pump so I can bubble the nutes before PHing, Next grow I’ll try MC. I like the idea of one nute instead of 20 bottles. I appreciate the support!

Great idea on the pump . Save a lot of money with MegaCrop nutrients. I saw you at InTheShed’s thread , so far I only did one grow in the hp pro-mix hydro/soil . You can learn a lot over there . You don’t have to worry about ph at all with the hp pro-mix and use tap water !
Also ppm is a true measurement EC is the only conversation measurement because of the 50 to 70 ppm gap in it .

 

[iNeedMeds]

I’ve seen Flora Nova Bloom used a lot too. I read grows where they used it veg to harvest. I’m definitely interested, same as MC, one nute use. I’m not sure the conversion, it’s a cheap amazon PH pen, I have a 4.0 solution to calibrate before I use it. Last night I started double checking with the old school vile and drop tester. Any suggestions on how I might get the smaller one growing again?

Honestly, you're making mistakes because you aren't mixing your nutrients properly. The EC pen you're using, doesn't measure mg/L, which is actual ppm. Every ion effects conductivity in a positive or negative manner, and the same goes for pH.
For an experiment, I'll use a mixture I made from calcium nitrate. I created 1L of concentrated solution for my part A by dissolving 77.5 grams in RO water. The solid ferts, were 15.5% nitrogen, and 19% calcium. Some of the mix is inert fillers that do nothing. This 1L of concentrate makes 100L of nutrients.

77.5 grams X 0.155 = 12.0 grams or 12000 mg/L or 12000 ppm. (Nitrogen)
77.5 grams x 0.19 = 14.7 grams or 14700 mg/L or 14700 ppm. (Calcium)

So if I mix 10mL with water to make 1L, the solution will have 120 ppm nitrogen, and 147 ppm of calcium. This makes 267 ppm of dissolved solids in the mix. So I pull out my EC meter, and check the solution, and it reads 1mS/cm, or 500 ppm on the NaCL scale, or 700 ppm on the KCl scale. So why does my meter read 500 when the solution only has 267 ppm? The answer is, EC is relative to a mixture, and doesn't tell you how many ppm there are in the solution at all. It only tells you if your solution is getting weaker or stronger as plants take in water and nutrients. For example, the final solution of this mixture at full strength contains 768 ppm of dissolved salts, but the EC of this mixture is 2 mS/cm or 1000 ppm. Basically, you can only use EC to compare the strength of exactly the same mixtures. You should be using it to compare changes in strength. If someone is on a different regiment than you, then their numbers should be ignored.

To know the actual strength and ratio of nutrients, you have to compare them using math. Usually, you make nitrogen a constant of 200. For example, Floranova grow @ 2.85 mL/L has 200 ppm of nitrogen. For Botanicare grow you're using, you'd would need 6.7 mL/L to have 200 ppm of nitrogen. For Veg, I would shoot for about 120 - 140 ppm nitrogen.

FN grow @ 2.85 mL/L
N 200
P 50
K 236
Ca 114
Mg 43
S 57

Botanicaire grow @ 6.7 mL/L

N 200
P 58
K 220
Ca 67
Mg 33

As you can see, they are very similar at the same nitrogen concentration, except the Botanicare has much lower calcium and magnesium content. That is why you need to add Cal-mag at the recommended dosage. Keep in mind, 200 ppm of nitrogen is way too much, and I would dilute the mixture down to about 140 ppm of nitrogen, or less if the plants use more water than nutrients.

Now, when mixing nutrients, it's important to remember that it's about proportions. If 1mL/L of cal mag needs to be added to 4ml/L Botanicare, mix it like that. For example. If you want 20 litres of final solution at half strength, you would add 10 mL of cal-mag to 9L of water, and stir in completely. Then add 40 mL of grow to the same solution and mix. Then you top up the solution to 10L. Measure the EC of this solution and record. If you want half strength, add water until your EC meter reads half of the full-strength EC, or simply measure out 10 L of RO water and add. What I do, is mix up a large quantity at full strength, and dilute it down to what the plants can handle in a separate container or in the res itself. It's much easier to dilute with water accurately, than it is to try and reduce how much of each ingredient there is.

How to fix your girl. Well, simply add the grow and cal-mag at full strength when mixing, and dilute to about 80% with water; pH and record the EC. The next day, check the EC and pH. If the EC drops, you need a stronger solution. If the EC rises, add water until it's below the starting EC by the amount it went up. pH typically rises as nitrate is absorbed from the solution. If the pH swings rapidly, you have too much carbonate, or not enough ammoniacal nitrogen in the mix. Increasing the volume of nutrient solution in the system, will also reduce the rate of change.

At 100% suggested strength this is your breakdown. Grow + cal-mag.
N 140
P 35
K 132
Ca 72
Mg 32

To me, this is a very balanced.

I've grown with floranova bloom from veg to flower. I mixed mine at about 2mL/L and then dilute. It only has slightly more potassium than your grow + cal-mag. The only thing I don't like about it, is it's kind of dirty, and leaves a film on everything.

N 140
P 35
K 166
Ca 80
Mg 30
S 40

When I mix several additives, I make a spreadsheet that calculates the ppm of every macro and micronutrient. If a deficiency or excess arises, then I have a visual of which additive could be decreased, increased, or removed to create a better balance. For the most part, the idea is to balance your cations, which are potassium, calcium, magnesium which limit each other because of cation exchange capacity. After that, all you're mainly doing is dicking around with nitrate, ammoniacal nitrogen, and phosphorous levels. The hardest part of growing DWC, is maintaining the lower pH without using too much ammoniacal nitrogen, as it will stunt flowers later in bloom.

To calculate actual ppm, you simply multiply the concentration 3% X (mL/L) X 10.
4mL/L would be 120 ppm.
For phosphorus (P2O5) and potassium (K2O), you will need to multiply by 0.4364 for phosphorus, and 0.8302 for potassium. These ions contain oxygen, and these number represent the percentage of each element in the ions based on molar mass. I did the math so you don't have to.
2% X 4mL/L X 10 X 0.4364 = 35 ppm phosphorus

Calculate for every additive, add up the numbers, and you'll have your actual fertilizer content. Eventually you'll figure out that there are really only a few things you can change. Cation ratios K, Ca, Mg. Cation to anion ratio. Nitrate to ammoniacal nitrate ratio, and nitrogen to phosphorus ratio. The lesser micros aren't easily manipulated unless you are mixing from scratch, which is possible, but tedious, especially on a small scale. Typically, the goal is to control pH, and to find a good balance between THC concentration, THC quantity, essential oils, and weight of the flowers.

My experience with floranova bloom, has been that it gives you a reliable single nutrient mix, with balanced production. It'll get you a nice crop of good quality, size, and strength flowers, but you need to dial in your atmospheric controls. If you have your atmospherics dialed in, everything about hydroponics because a whole lot easier to manage.

 

[Scottylikesbud]

Well I had problems using ppm int the beginning when I started, I switched to ec and find that so much better for measuring then ppm. Also my thoughts are on your water level in your buckets, having my water level to high when I started my plant was being all funky. Till I lowered the water level.
I use these charts so far, doing good. And you know I read my plant, it’s important to read what she is trying to tell you, I check my ph every couple days and add some water if needed, more nutes if needed and always ph back to 5.9-6.1 haven’t really had troubles so far in my first grow. Also I wash out the grow buckets every week with a lil soap and water to keep it clean. Hope this helps bruh

 

[Midwest Grower]

Honestly, you're making mistakes because you aren't mixing your nutrients properly. The EC pen you're using, doesn't measure mg/L, which is actual ppm. Every ion effects conductivity in a positive or negative manner, and the same goes for pH.
For an experiment, I'll use a mixture I made from calcium nitrate. I created 1L of concentrated solution for my part A by dissolving 77.5 grams in RO water. The solid ferts, were 15.5% nitrogen, and 19% calcium. Some of the mix is inert fillers that do nothing. This 1L of concentrate makes 100L of nutrients.

77.5 grams X 0.155 = 12.0 grams or 12000 mg/L or 12000 ppm. (Nitrogen)
77.5 grams x 0.19 = 14.7 grams or 14700 mg/L or 14700 ppm. (Calcium)

So if I mix 10mL with water to make 1L, the solution will have 120 ppm nitrogen, and 147 ppm of calcium. This makes 267 ppm of dissolved solids in the mix. So I pull out my EC meter, and check the solution, and it reads 1mS/cm, or 500 ppm on the NaCL scale, or 700 ppm on the KCl scale. So why does my meter read 500 when the solution only has 267 ppm? The answer is, EC is relative to a mixture, and doesn't tell you how many ppm there are in the solution at all. It only tells you if your solution is getting weaker or stronger as plants take in water and nutrients. For example, the final solution of this mixture at full strength contains 768 ppm of dissolved salts, but the EC of this mixture is 2 mS/cm or 1000 ppm. Basically, you can only use EC to compare the strength of exactly the same mixtures. You should be using it to compare changes in strength. If someone is on a different regiment than you, then their numbers should be ignored.

To know the actual strength and ratio of nutrients, you have to compare them using math. Usually, you make nitrogen a constant of 200. For example, Floranova grow @ 2.85 mL/L has 200 ppm of nitrogen. For Botanicare grow you're using, you'd would need 6.7 mL/L to have 200 ppm of nitrogen. For Veg, I would shoot for about 120 - 140 ppm nitrogen.

FN grow @ 2.85 mL/L
N 200
P 50
K 236
Ca 114
Mg 43
S 57

Botanicaire grow @ 6.7 mL/L

N 200
P 58
K 220
Ca 67
Mg 33

As you can see, they are very similar at the same nitrogen concentration, except the Botanicare has much lower calcium and magnesium content. That is why you need to add Cal-mag at the recommended dosage. Keep in mind, 200 ppm of nitrogen is way too much, and I would dilute the mixture down to about 140 ppm of nitrogen, or less if the plants use more water than nutrients.

Now, when mixing nutrients, it's important to remember that it's about proportions. If 1mL/L of cal mag needs to be added to 4ml/L Botanicare, mix it like that. For example. If you want 20 litres of final solution at half strength, you would add 10 mL of cal-mag to 9L of water, and stir in completely. Then add 40 mL of grow to the same solution and mix. Then you top up the solution to 10L. Measure the EC of this solution and record. If you want half strength, add water until your EC meter reads half of the full-strength EC, or simply measure out 10 L of RO water and add. What I do, is mix up a large quantity at full strength, and dilute it down to what the plants can handle in a separate container or in the res itself. It's much easier to dilute with water accurately, than it is to try and reduce how much of each ingredient there is.

How to fix your girl. Well, simply add the grow and cal-mag at full strength when mixing, and dilute to about 80% with water; pH and record the EC. The next day, check the EC and pH. If the EC drops, you need a stronger solution. If the EC rises, add water until it's below the starting EC by the amount it went up. pH typically rises as nitrate is absorbed from the solution. If the pH swings rapidly, you have too much carbonate, or not enough ammoniacal nitrogen in the mix. Increasing the volume of nutrient solution in the system, will also reduce the rate of change.

At 100% suggested strength this is your breakdown. Grow + cal-mag.
N 140
P 35
K 132
Ca 72
Mg 32

To me, this is a very balanced.

I've grown with floranova bloom from veg to flower. I mixed mine at about 2mL/L and then dilute. It only has slightly more potassium than your grow + cal-mag. The only thing I don't like about it, is it's kind of dirty, and leaves a film on everything.

N 140
P 35
K 166
Ca 80
Mg 30
S 40

When I mix several additives, I make a spreadsheet that calculates the ppm of every macro and micronutrient. If a deficiency or excess arises, then I have a visual of which additive could be decreased, increased, or removed to create a better balance. For the most part, the idea is to balance your cations, which are potassium, calcium, magnesium which limit each other because of cation exchange capacity. After that, all you're mainly doing is dicking around with nitrate, ammoniacal nitrogen, and phosphorous levels. The hardest part of growing DWC, is maintaining the lower pH without using too much ammoniacal nitrogen, as it will stunt flowers later in bloom.

To calculate actual ppm, you simply multiply the concentration 3% X (mL/L) X 10.
4mL/L would be 120 ppm.
For phosphorus (P2O5) and potassium (K2O), you will need to multiply by 0.4364 for phosphorus, and 0.8302 for potassium. These ions contain oxygen, and these number represent the percentage of each element in the ions based on molar mass. I did the math so you don't have to.
2% X 4mL/L X 10 X 0.4364 = 35 ppm phosphorus

Calculate for every additive, add up the numbers, and you'll have your actual fertilizer content. Eventually you'll figure out that there are really only a few things you can change. Cation ratios K, Ca, Mg. Cation to anion ratio. Nitrate to ammoniacal nitrate ratio, and nitrogen to phosphorus ratio. The lesser micros aren't easily manipulated unless you are mixing from scratch, which is possible, but tedious, especially on a small scale. Typically, the goal is to control pH, and to find a good balance between THC concentration, THC quantity, essential oils, and weight of the flowers.

My experience with floranova bloom, has been that it gives you a reliable single nutrient mix, with balanced production. It'll get you a nice crop of good quality, size, and strength flowers, but you need to dial in your atmospheric controls. If you have your atmospherics dialed in, everything about hydroponics because a whole lot easier to manage.

I’ve never been so excited to do math. I’m gonna see what the numbers are for the amount of nutes I added to the last res change. I bet they are WAY lower then what you posted. So when charts, and people say 400-600 ppm veg and 800-1200ppm for flower are these numbers based on “actual ppm”?

 

[Midwest Grower]

Well I had problems using ppm int the beginning when I started, I switched to ec and find that so much better for measuring then ppm. Also my thoughts are on your water level in your buckets, having my water level to high when I started my plant was being all funky. Till I lowered the water level.
I use these charts so far, doing good. And you know I read my plant, it’s important to read what she is trying to tell you, I check my ph every couple days and add some water if needed, more nutes if needed and always ph back to 5.9-6.1 haven’t really had troubles so far in my first grow. Also I wash out the grow buckets every week with a lil soap and water to keep it clean. Hope this helps bruh

Thanks Scotty, right now I got a inch from bottom of net pot to top of the water. Gonna take a peek at your grow.

 

[West Hippie]

Week 4 of 12/12 since pistols appeared . MC grow.

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• West Hippie
• Feb 20, 2020

3 WW 2/20/20

 

[Scottylikesbud]

Yeah, I think an inch below the pot is to high, pretty good for starting out seeds though, try lowering it some give the roots a bit more air to breath.

 

[Scottylikesbud]

If your roots are long enough, I’d fill it to 3/4 of the bucket, and let it drop down to 1/2

 

[iNeedMeds]

I’ve never been so excited to do math. I’m gonna see what the numbers are for the amount of nutes I added to the last res change. I bet they are WAY lower then what you posted. So when charts, and people say 400-600 ppm veg and 800-1200ppm for flower are these numbers based on “actual ppm”?

No. They are a conversion based on electrical conductivity measurements. Concentration needs to be adjusted to your plants uptake.