First grow, top feed DWC, lowrider

[kamikaza]

hi guys!!
this is my first grow, DWC, 3 plants in one res.
strain: low rider autoflower, i am 6 weeks since they germinated out of the rockwool.
nutrients: bio nova hydro supermix, pk 13-14, x-cel, and enzime. all bio nova.
top feed sistem, with submersible pump, 240 galon per houer, 15 minutes on and 15 minutes off when light on (20\4) and off when dark.
res: 10 galon water in a box of 15 galons or so.
grow room (closet) temp: 67-79.
water temp: 65-72
ppm now: 750
ventilation: vortex 240 m3 per hour. the air changed in less then a minute

they say on the label of the hydro supermix that if using in soft water area, you have to supplement ca 15.
i am using RO water and couldn't find ca 15 in my country, so i am mixing the reservoir in ratio of 2:1 RO water with nutrient by the instruction they told me, and bottled mineral water, because the main component in tha water is calcium. 80 miligram per liter.
from the very begining i had some nutrients disorder. brown spots on older leaves, yellowing from the center of new leavs, new groth leave curled outward....
PH is between 5.5 and 6.2. every 48 hours it drift to 6.2 and i lower it back to 5.5
my question is: is it mag deficiency or calcium deficiency? those brown spots apear on the leaves as they get older, and get worse the older they are.

sorry for my poor english...

 

[kamikaza]

my set up:

 

[kamikaza]

leaves problem:

 

[PrairiePoet]

It does look like a Cal/Mag problem to me. Even though you are trying to fix it with mineral water, it doesn't look like it is working. Try to find some Epsom Salt, 1/4 teaspoon per gallon in the reservoir.

 

[kamikaza]

thanks mate!!

 

[kamikaza]

i didn't find epsom salt today, hope to find tomorrow.
meanwile i ordered botanicare cal-mag from ebay, it will arrive in about two weeks. meanwile i will try to get some cal-mag from a friend.


ok, so i had to change the res today.
in order to combat the calcium deficiency i added more mineral and tap water.
1/3 1/3 1/3 RO water, tap water (300 ppm) mineral water (350 ppm)
nutrient for week 4 of flower. they are 12" tall.
totall ppm in a 10 galon res: 1250.
ph after changing: 6.3
i lowered it to 5.8 by adding 9 mililter ph down. 5 hours later it's on ph 6.15, i will drup it back down when it will reach 6.3

is it ok to do res change when lights on? i only give them 5 hours dark now, and i was sleeping so had to do it when lights on. took me about 30 minuts, and i left the plants in another room (dark) while i was cleaning the res.

it's an autoflower strain, so if i want i can do res change when lights off, no need to keep them at dark. i am afraid res change when lights on can stress them.

the leaves are curling down all the time. a friend told me it could be over watering? is it possible in DWC? the water lavel is inch below the netpot. should i lower the water lavel?

todey pictures:

 

[PrairiePoet]

i didn't find epsom salt today, hope to find tomorrow.
meanwile i ordered botanicare cal-mag from ebay, it will arrive in about two weeks. meanwile i will try to get some cal-mag from a friend.


ok, so i had to change the res today.
in order to combat the calcium deficiency i added more mineral and tap water.
1/3 1/3 1/3 RO water, tap water (300 ppm) mineral water (350 ppm)
nutrient for week 4 of flower. they are 12" tall.
totall ppm in a 10 galon res: 1250.
ph after changing: 6.3
i lowered it to 5.8 by adding 9 mililter ph down. 5 hours later it's on ph 6.15, i will drup it back down when it will reach 6.3

is it ok to do res change when lights on? i only give them 5 hours dark now, and i was sleeping so had to do it when lights on. took me about 30 minuts, and i left the plants in another room (dark) while i was cleaning the res.

it's an autoflower strain, so if i want i can do res change when lights off, no need to keep them at dark. i am afraid res change when lights on can stress them.

the leaves are curling down all the time. a friend told me it could be over watering? is it possible in DWC? the water lavel is inch below the netpot. should i lower the water lavel?

todey pictures:

In a DWC pulling the top off and letting the roots have air and light for 30 minutes or so won't hurt them. I do that ever week.

And you are right, you can't over water in DWC. It could be you don't have enough oxygen in the reservoir, that might look the same as when soil grows are over watered. How much air do you have pumping into the res? But I think your problem is pH, causing a nute lock out. Or just a nute problem.

Your temps look ok, your roots look good, everything seems right. I don't know anything about the nutes you are using. Are they a 2 or 3 mix solution? Are you using them as the manufacture suggest? I've used Fox Farms and now I'm trying out Blue Planet (forum sponsor). Wish I could offer more help. Hopefully, after you get some Cal/Mag in there it will pull out.

 

[kamikaza]

thanks for the answer prairiepoet!!

about oxigen, i am using 4 pumps and 4 6" airstones, 2 pumps are 8 liter per hour, one is 4 LPH and one is 3 LPH. that should be enough, as the rules says - 500-600 cc per minute for each galon in the res.... but maybe thet 8 LPH for pump are only if there isn't airstone etc, just what the pump can deliver without resistance. anyway i will upgrade my pumps tomorrow. now when the plants are bigger and have more roots they probably need more oxigen.

the nutes i am using: bio nova hydro super mix, it is like the A and B combined. same formula all the grow, with supllemnted pk 13-14 in flower stage.
bionova pk 13-14
bionova x-cel
bionova en-zime

today i borrowed some kal mag from a friend and made a top up of 3 liters RO water with only kal-mag. 20 mililter took those 3 liter to 1250 ppm, just like the rest of the res. i think it's about 100 ppm of kal mag for each liter in the res. so should be enough for now, considering 2\3 of my background water are tap and mineral water.

is it a good idea from now on to top up using RO water with supllemeted kal-mag to 200 ppm as my background water and then adding the nutes by the instruction i get in the hydroshop? it like tap water but much better, isn't it?


the ph is a pain in the ass - keep rising all the time! i am lowering it to 5.5 and an 2 hours later it on 5.95 it only slow down abit when it above 6.2 and i need it for sometime below 5.8 in order to obsorve calcium, as they say here:

here are some pic's from yesterday and today, the yellowing of new groth started to become green in the morning, before i added the kal-mag, probably due to res change yesterday.

one leaf that i trimmed:

https://www.420magazine.com/gallery/data/500/DSC03090_800x600.jpg[/IM

[IMG]https://www.420magazine.com/gallery/data/500/DSC03088_800x600.jpg


my air pumps:

 

[kamikaza]

today update: the guy in the hydroshop ssuggested a solution - since the bionova formula is one nute through the entire lifecycle, hydrosupermix, NPK 5-2-3.
and i am using 5 ML per liter compare to 0.8 ML per liter of PK 13-14, (by the manufector instruction) and in flower stage the plants need less N, it could be the accecive of it thet luck out other essential nutes.
so in todey 3 liter top up i added PK 13-14 up to 850 ppm, insted of combination with the supermix. RO water with 150 ppm cal mag as background.
the rest of nutes as normal. i also foilar fed with cal mag, 250 ppm of it.
i bought epsom salt, but it calcium and mag deficiency, so i tried cal-mag first.

added one more air pump of 8 liter per minute, should be enough for my res.

groth started again, and the smell geting stronger. thet's a good sign!

 

[HydroManster]

I would suggest you back down your EC/PPM levels. With RO water you need to add 150 to 200PPM of Cal/Mag first, then add your base nutrient until you reach the desired PPM. The "claw" affect is from over feeding. I would suggest maybe a PPM of about 400 to 500PPM for a few weeks and wait for the claw affect to go away.

A flush of your medium is important to do as salt build up can cause over feeding by built up nutrients in the medium. Using a product like Drip Clean works wonders to prevent salt build up from happening.

Check your temps as well and make sure you RH is in check. VPD can cause nutrient deficiency symptoms as.

Add 1gram of Epson salt per gallon to fix those rust spots.

Cheers!

 

[kamikaza]

thanks for your help hydromanster!!

my RH and temp are ok, just the wey it should be, and ventilation also.

if i understood you correct you mean 400-500 ppm including the cal-mag and epsom salt? do i have to supplement epsom salt in my next res change if i am using cal-mag?

1 g of epsom salt per galon gives me 100 ppm, plus cal mag 150 ppm thet 250 ppm before any nute added. so only 250 ppm of nutes?

i think bouth you and the guy from the hydroshop are right, but i think it mey be too much N thet block other nutes.
by the wey, there are no signs of nutes burn on the leaves tips.

in todey 3 liter top up i droped the nutes to 2\3 then yesterday, RO water with supplemented cal-mag as background. i will foilar feed them tomorrow with epsom salt 30 minutes before lights on.

today pic's:

 

[HydroManster]

Yes you have it correct, about 250PPM before you add base is about right.

You would be surprised how low you can run the nutrient levels in DWC and RDWC. We max out at around 800PPM in peak flower and that is with HUGE plants, like over 6ft tall and 6ft wide.

For plants the size that your are, 400 to 500PPM is fine. Might could even go lower actually and I bet that "claw" look would go away.

Cheers!

 

[kamikaza]

ohh thet sounds good, i was thinking it's a waste of nutes all those res change whan you throws them with the water.
so the manufector instruction has nothing to do with DWC. i followed the instruction and it took me to very high level of PPM. also the guys from the hydroshop couldn't help much, not many people are doing DWC here, if someome is doing hydro it's ebb & flow or coco.

i decided to do res change today insted of foilar spray (i don't want to stress them with bouth at same day), i had the feeling like there is more PH down in my water then nutes!! and too high PPM.

RO water with 150 ppm cal-mag, i lowered the supermix and raised the pk 13-14 so the NPK ratio is now 15-19-23, in total of 900 ppm including the cal-mag.

and - boom!! they exploded. i think they grew more then an inch today.
i also tried to give them less water - the pump was working 15 minutes on and 15 minutes off. now it's one hour off and 15 minutes on. seems to be good for them.

the clew effect hasn't gone, but i think is less then before.

plants waiting for res change

root bound

bubbles

buds starting

 

[kamikaza]

so i used the advices from here and added some epsom salt. foilar spray with it yesterday half an hour before lights on, and toped up the res with 3 liter of RO water with the left over epsom salt. 150 ppm epaom salt in the top up is about 15 of it to each liter in the res.
look like it halps - the new grouth is muche greener then before i used it.
i was also in total ppm of 850, so the clew effect started to vanish.
today had another top up, 4 liter with epsom salt (120ppm) cal-mag (144 ppm) pk 13-14 200 ppm) some tarce elements to compensate on the missing supermix, enzime and x-cel

the ppm now is 800, much less yellowing and leaves tips are better. look like all things combined are doing a change. anyway, i think of changing nutes. the bionova i am using now probably doesn't fit to DWC.
the PH balance is insane - i have to correct it every few hours with massive amount of PH down. i chacked my dairy, and there is nearly the same amount of PH down and nutes!! and in just 3 days.
i can find in the local hydroshops (there are only 7 the cuntry) GHE, ATAMI, HOUSE & GARDEN, AND HESI. house & garden has somthing called 'aqua flake'. if not this so maybe atami or ghe.

plamts yesterdey

and after some trimming

healthier leaf

 

[HydroManster]

Looking much better already! Stay the course and you will see some amazing growth, we get 3 inches a day sometimes.

Keep the EC level low and you will start to notice changes for the better.

 

[Mr.M]

I'll be checking back here. I've been wanting to try a DWC but it always seemed a lot more troublesome then a little soil. From the looks of it though it seems you have a pretty good idea of what you're doing. Keep it up man!