Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

[Micro grow joe]

re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

I'm also starting to question the efficacy of flushing. On the surface it seems like it works. It's logical, certainly, but I'm not sure the plant can work the way described. Let me explain.

The point to flushing is to remove excess fertilizer salts from the grow medium, forcing the plant to consume it's own energy stores. I feel like this is maybe 100% functional for most parts of the plants, except the part we care about, which are the flowers.

Flowers are sinks, not sources, meaning flowers don't provide anything to the plant, it only receives. So, while it makes sense that maybe the leaves would benefit from a flush, the buds really have nowhere to offload excess fertilizer, if any even exists in an available form within the plant matter. I was also thinking that, rarely do we burn flowers with nutrients. Nutrient burn is caused by excess salts forcing water out of cells, at least in essence. If there were excess nutrients in the flowers, flowers should nute burn. But rarely do they. It appears that the vast majority of nitrogen and other elements we feed as fertilizer, are incorporated into the plant matter, not stored or just sitting, but being part of the cell, so, not something you remove via translocation.

I also joined a forum for growing tobacco. Funny, they're just as tight knit community as over here, with different strains and breeders. Cool stuff.

But anyway, these guys don't flush, and laughed their asses off when I explained it to them.

They then, after composing themselves, explained that flavor and harshness are controlled with the cure. They then described their cure methods, which jive with Ed Rosenthals latest grow guide.

Basically, we all have it backwards. We dry and cure, while they cure, then dry.

It was explained that a proper cure of any plant matter requires a period of fermentation, which begins imediately after chop. Curing without fermentation is apparently not actual curing. The cure breaks down most of the nasty plant material via fermentation, so, cells are broken down, gasses release, and any of those elements that had previously constituted the matter of the cell are released, which these guys say takes between 4 and 16 weeks in low/no light, medium humidity and temperature, with air circulation.

After the cure, they dry it to the right humidity just like us, and then age it for a few years.

No flush, no flushing agents, just a really long, true, cure.

Most of us let the buds dry in about the same conditions tobacco usually cures, little to no light, medium humidity, moderate temps, some air circulation. So, we probably are benefitting from a fairly short cure during our drying period, and if we are letting jars air out regularly (air in, actually, a true cure requires oxygen.) So, if you slow dry, and are good about airing jars out, and you do this properly for longer and longer periods, as everyone recommends, you getter better flavor, as everyone seems to say. If you're doing this, you're benefitting from a true cure.

I also found that while oxygen can degrade thc, light is a much bigger enemy, and if cured properly even in the presence of oxygen, the bud should lose very little potency.

I'm not about to bet the harvest on this, but I will be setting a few buds aside for a proper long ferment/cure. Ed says it's best. Others say the same. All of them say it's all about the proper cure, and that our traditional methods are just quick and easy. They work, but could be much better.

So, anyway, aside from our apparently not curing properly, it looks likely that flushing does nothing at all for the flowers, maybe something for leaves. It definitely clears out soil though, so at the least, you aren't pulling more nutes in.

Again guys, this is meant to be a discussion on what's actually happening in the plant. While I appreciate other harvest tips, that's not what this thread is about. In fact, it's these types of tips I'm trying to understand. Too many people just do things either because they seem to work, or at least do no harm. I want to know why it works, not just that it does.

That's how things like Miracle Grow become so popular. Anyone using it thinks it's miraculous, because they don't understand anything about plant nutrition.

Their shit plant looks great after use. It's a miracle!

No, it's just NPK.

The bud tastes better after flushing.

No, it's just the cure.

And I'll continue flushing until I am convinced one way or the other. I lean toward it not working, but the marketing guys (and at least half of you guys) have me scared to risk it for now.

Debate!

Great read bruda respect I’m flushing a girl now lol thinking should I be

 

[Sjt257]

re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

Personal experiences are known as anecdotal evidence, which is not to be trusted in science. Personal experiences are marred by biases of many kinds. Plus, people lie. People exaggerate. People misinterpret, misrepresent, misunderstand.

thank you for this. I know it’s been five years since the original post, but then again it’s been 400 years since Francis Bacon and scientific revolution. We should know better by now.

God deliver us from bro-science

 

[J Obadiah]

thank you for this. I know it’s been five years since the original post, but then again it’s been 400 years since Francis Bacon and scientific revolution. We should know better by now.

God deliver us from bro-science

Amen to this!

 

[Bobby Blunt]

Micro Grow Joe, I hear you and thanks for the information. I have a different view on flushing, before I started growing my own I was buying hand to hand, if you don't have to don't, most of the stuff I smoked burned my throat. As I started reading/learning about growing some were saying the harshness was because the plant wasn't flushed properly others were saying that wasn't it. when I finished my first grow, flushed and cured, every time I took a puff it felt like I was puffing on a cloud I relate to you saying flowers are sinks but even sinks have drains and a means for overflow. Since flushing does not hurt the plant what would it hurt to flush it, that is if you don't have a lot of plants to flush, my max is 4 plants all auto's average height is- 2'-7" and heavy yielders also I use my soil at least twice, and never had any problems probably because I flushed.

 

[bobrown14]

thank you for this. I know it’s been five years since the original post, but then again it’s been 400 years since Francis Bacon and scientific revolution. We should know better by now.

God deliver us from bro-science

One flush at a time.... wait till the college kids get growing.... more.

 

[J Obadiah]

Y'all go check out my Journal in Progress "J Obadiahs Big Bud 2020" and shoot some feedback, huh? Thanks!

 

[Bionic Chronic NZ]

what an awesome read man

 

[budda gump]

Back to the flushing thing, i kinda agree, ive done grows where i didnt have time to flush so i cut all bud from stems and dried then cured, couldnt tell the difference, i think if u hang ur plant when drying then anything in stems / leaves will end up in the bud so if u dont flush it , it will taint it, but if u remove all plant matter and bud from plant and dry hanging in a pair of tights its fine,, that being said, i do flush, but if i cant for some reason i just do as said.

 

[politoed]

Micro Grow Joe, I hear you and thanks for the information. I have a different view on flushing, before I started growing my own I was buying hand to hand, if you don't have to don't, most of the stuff I smoked burned my throat. As I started reading/learning about growing some were saying the harshness was because the plant wasn't flushed properly others were saying that wasn't it. when I finished my first grow, flushed and cured, every time I took a puff it felt like I was puffing on a cloud I relate to you saying flowers are sinks but even sinks have drains and a means for overflow. Since flushing does not hurt the plant what would it hurt to flush it, that is if you don't have a lot of plants to flush, my max is 4 plants all auto's average height is- 2'-7" and heavy yielders also I use my soil at least twice, and never had any problems probably because I flushed.

question 1 - if it doesnt hurt the plant, why not flush?
- one could argue it does hurt the plant. the plant is being deprived of nutrients and shocked by overwatering and malnutrition at arguably its most important stage in its life - the end of flower

statement 1 - As I started reading/learning about growing some were saying the harshness was because the plant wasn't flushed properly others were saying that wasn't it. when I finished my first grow, flushed and cured, every time I took a puff it felt like I was puffing on a cloud
- one could argue that the proper dry and cure are what created the cloud like buds, not the flushing. i would be one for that argument.

now, i do agree that excess nitrogen during flowering can have a bad effect on your plants. but i wouldnt consider withdrawing nitrogen from the plant "flushing", just a change in nutrient timing. the same way not giving hella bloom nutes to your seedlings is not flushing, omitting veg nutes from your flowering plants isnt flushing either.

edit : i just realized i replied to a 3 month old post buy typed wayyyy too much not not post it haha

 

[Emilya Green]

Flushing is so terribly misunderstood these days...

- one could argue it does hurt the plant. the plant is being deprived of nutrients and shocked by overwatering and malnutrition at arguably its most important stage in its life - the end of flower

One could argue this, but they would be wrong. First, the plant is not being deprived.. plants get rained on all the time with no extra nutrients coming in, and they are fine. Second, the plant is not being shocked by overwatering... the only way to overwater a container plant is by watering too often... the soil can only hold a certain amount of water, and no matter how many 10's of gallons you pour through the soil to cleanse (flush) it, it still ends up only holding the same amount of water it would hold on a normal watering. Flushing can NOT overwater your plant.

Third, we don't even typically feed our plants a lot of nitrogen near the end of bloom, so they are not storing a lot either. The nitrogen isnt directly stored in the buds anyway, anything up there has been converted to sugars and resin. As soon as someone starts talking about flushing so as to get rid of excess nitrogen in the smoked buds, I ignore them... they don't know what they are talking about. @politoed you are correct... it is all about a proper dry and cure to get rid of the chemical tastes in our smoke... flushing has nothing to do with it. Flushing is simply to clear the soil of all built up salts and leftover nutes, so that free and clear uptake can be experienced by the roots in that all important last phase of building the buds to completion.

 

[Bobby Blunt]

question 1 - if it doesnt hurt the plant, why not flush?
- one could argue it does hurt the plant. the plant is being deprived of nutrients and shocked by overwatering and malnutrition at arguably its most important stage in its life - the end of flower

statement 1 - As I started reading/learning about growing some were saying the harshness was because the plant wasn't flushed properly others were saying that wasn't it. when I finished my first grow, flushed and cured, every time I took a puff it felt like I was puffing on a cloud
- one could argue that the proper dry and cure are what created the cloud like buds, not the flushing. i would be one for that argument.

now, i do agree that excess nitrogen during flowering can have a bad effect on your plants. but i wouldnt consider withdrawing nitrogen from the plant "flushing", just a change in nutrient timing. the same way not giving hella bloom nutes to your seedlings is not flushing, omitting veg nutes from your flowering plants isnt flushing either.

edit : i just realized i replied to a 3 month old post buy typed wayyyy too much not not post it haha

Politoed, wow I just finished smoking some of Seedsman Auto Sour Diesel Haze I have in cure right now 3rd wk

question 1 - if it doesnt hurt the plant, why not flush?
- one could argue it does hurt the plant. the plant is being deprived of nutrients and shocked by overwatering and malnutrition at arguably its most important stage in its life - the end of flower

statement 1 - As I started reading/learning about growing some were saying the harshness was because the plant wasn't flushed properly others were saying that wasn't it. when I finished my first grow, flushed and cured, every time I took a puff it felt like I was puffing on a cloud
- one could argue that the proper dry and cure are what created the cloud like buds, not the flushing. i would be one for that argument.

now, i do agree that excess nitrogen during flowering can have a bad effect on your plants. but i wouldnt consider withdrawing nitrogen from the plant "flushing", just a change in nutrient timing. the same way not giving hella bloom nutes to your seedlings is not flushing, omitting veg nutes from your flowering plants isnt flushing either.

edit : i just realized i replied to a 3 month old post buy typed wayyyy too much not not post it haha

 

[politoed]

Politoed, wow I just finished smoking some of Seedsman Auto Sour Diesel Haze I have in cure right now 3rd wk

sounds delicious. how did she turn out so far? if you did flush, what did you do?

 

[Bobby Blunt]

I'm curing some Seedsman- Auto Sour Diesel Haze Its no joke, me like
To answer the question 1- This plant is a tank you almost have to blow it up to kill it I don't think a flush would stress it out that much, we water our plants every other wk from Veg to flower so it can be said we deprive the plants of nutrients once a wk and we do flush at least once from veg to flower they show no signs of stress through any of this. In the end it comes down to personal preference to flush or not, that's the beauty of it there are many ways to grow and harvest this awesome plant.

Statement 1- Definitely, that's huge part of the process, proper drying and curing which accounts for the quality and smoothness of the end product but that's not to say that finish flushing does or does not add or take away from the end result.

I don't quite understand your last part, you slowly decrease nitrogen intake once the plant transitions into flower, "nutrient timing", somewhere around the 7th or 8th wk of flower you totally stop the nitrogen when finishing flowering. I don't use bloom nutes on my seedlings but I do use 1/8tsp of Fox farm- Grow big only on a seedlings 3rd wk. after that I go 1/2 then full nutes. I appreciate your feedback it wasn't too long ago I started growing, "for myself" a few yrs. ago and depended on forums like these and still do for guidance on all thing's marijuana. I don't think your post was too long it was right on time, if you come across anyone that claims to know it all, run This is from my last grow; MAR-JUN and JUN-AUG. All autos.

 

[Bobby Blunt]

sounds delicious. how did she turn out so far? if you did flush, what did you do?

I just saw your other post on "what did I do". I have a grilling grate that fits over my toilet where I sit the plant, their in 3gal buckets, I use a generic flushing agent a 5gal plastic bucket with spigot a 6' water hose, 1tsp flushing agent per gal, after flush put in dark place for 72hrs then chop and hang for a least 5days put in a jar for a least 2wks, the enjoy

 

[politoed]

I just saw your other post on "what did I do". I have a grilling grate that fits over my toilet where I sit the plant, their in 3gal buckets, I use a generic flushing agent a 5gal plastic bucket with spigot a 6' water hose, 1tsp flushing agent per gal, after flush put in dark place for 72hrs then chop and hang for a least 5days put in a jar for a least 2wks, the enjoy

plants look beautiful brother. i remember flushing a 31 plant grow ten years ago that was in a scrog nightmare and i stopped halfway thru. coincidentally the plants i didnt flush all turned out better. personally i try to time the finish on my plants and cut N or Gro or Grow Big at least 30 days before the chop. i do tend to just use water for the last week or two, i just no longer run 5x volume of water thru the medium like i used to. id be curious about those flushing compounds myself. seems like maybe you can eliminate the buildup without hella water. glad your plants came out so nice and the cola on that first one is a heffer!

 

[gallito]

While the flowers are sinks, their sub-tending leaves and bracts can still receive and render nutrients. In this case, flushing would be of some benefit. During trimming, these bracts are not necessarily wholly removed because of trichome accumulations. These bracts/leafs still contain whatever nutrients they had when they were harvested, possibly resulting in black ash & harsh smoke. I know this isn't scientific evidence, but it would be interesting to know if contributions these bracts/leaves make towards total post-harvest nutrient levels significantly pass the threshold between a smooth smoke with gray ash or harsh/black ash. I should add that I am a strong advocate of curing.

 

[gallito]

"Science is not about building a body of 'known facts'. It is a method for asking awkward questions and subjecting them to a reality-check, thus avoiding the human tendency to believe whatever makes us feel good."

 

[Nunyabiz]

"To live in harmony with nature, we must know how to sing the same song as nature. To do that, we must understand nature. Good intentions aren’t enough. Science might be – if we use it wisely."

Terry Pratchett

 

[TorturedSoul]

Who can give personal advice on a topic?

This topic? Well, the OP, if you can figure out where he's at. And @Emilya , probably.

 

[safeman]

re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell




I have learned and use several techniques towards the end of my grows to help swell the resin glands and almost quadruple trichome production. It's a old techinique I have mentioned on here before (around the formus) in guidling and helping people get the most out of their crop... The last 2 weeks of flush is standard. No matter what you grow with or how you grow it. That simple. BUT, in the last 48-56 hours of the plants life another "technique" I use comes into play. I switch the humidity down to 25-32%, then hit em with a 8/16 light schedule. This 8 hours of light and 16 of dark sends the plant into HEAVY Trichome production and swells the resin sacks to the size of grapes. In most cases (with me) the trichome production AT LEAST triples. I also in the last 48 hours like to make a cut at the base of the plants stock. A simple cut half way through the stock or a little less will send this plant into even heavier trichome and resin production. The plant thinks it's being eaten by a deer or animal and when you hit them with the 8/16 sched... Man o Man. It tricks the plant into thinking it's day is defiantly numbered by insinuating winter is upon her and shes getting eaten... These techniques towards in the last 48-56 hours will not only help you get bigger stickier buds. But it will also give you substantial increase in potency. BUT, do not let it go to long or your plant will nanner. And we obviously do not want this. This is why I say the last 48-56 hours. After many tests I find this is the "sweet spot" and wont deal with any nanners.


PSS: Since this post was about the ending "techniques" used in harvesting cannabis, I thought I would "expose" a few more secrets used by master and advanced growers world wide.

they use that "cutting stock/bending it South America during the last weeks before harvest -- Thanks !!