Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

[AdaminCO]

There have been studies where they measure the thc and terpene content of weed harvested with a 0 to 48 hour dark period . They found a significant shift in both thc content and terpene profile after the dark period.

From my personal experience, if you like the heady racy high, holding it over isn’t for you. I compare it to letting your trics ripen… 30%+ amber
I can’t have the heady high, I’ll stroke out, but I love Jack Herer taste. Holding it over gave me the perfect high. I attribute that to the holdover.
If you’re a couch lock lover, and need instant chill, I highly recommend the hold over.
The JH I didn’t hold over took longer to cure before we could really enjoy it.

 

[MAK1]

I Agree with the dark span at time of flip to flower cycle that makes sense to me considering the flip is unnatural when considering how actual sun cycles work. We are manipulating mother nature when we bring them inside and start controlling things for our benefits not necessarily for the plants benefit. I generalized my comment based on reading several posts from this thread I apologize if I wasn’t clear or seemed pointed to your post.
I enjoy reading peoples opinions and perceptions of growing nuances it makes me think and consider how I can improve on my own practices.
Grow Hard & Happy 420!!

All this made you think, EXCELLENT!

 

[MAK1]

Give this a read… I ran an A, B, C test a few years back. @Emilya was around for it, along with many others. I do it every time now. I’ve actually gone 5 days just to see what happens. 36 hours seems to be the sweet spot.

Do these trichomes look done? Zoom

Since there is no physical reason or physiological explanation for a dramatic response to NO input. Plants never show a spike in growth due to lack of stimulus. It just doesn't work that way, ever. I am not saying that your plants won't respond when you turn off the lights. They stopping growth not long after lights out. Perhaps they stop all metabolic processes after 36 hours in the dark, IDK.
Here's a thought - Water causes trichomes to swell in the absence of heat from the lamps. What ever is the cause for swelling, do the trichomes shrink back down after the dry/cure?
NUTS! I have had my plants in flower for 65-80 days. I have been doing everything I can to help my plant grow and mature trichomes. Waiting for just the right time to harvest my trichome laden buds. Now, on the last day I should shut off my lights because they suddenly cause damage. Seriously? People accept this? And there is another aspect that the plants should have a notable increase in THC or secondary metabolites. I don't know how long is needed to grow and mature cannabinoids but I'll bet a bunch it that it wont happen over night in the dark. You should be "motivating" your plants to improve production for weeks before harvest.
Somewhere along the line people stop to think but, forget to start again.
It doesn't matter if I'm right or wrong or you are right or wrong. If I made you (anyone) think I will mark that as a Victory.

 

[MAK1]

There have been studies where they measure the thc and terpene content of weed harvested with a 0 to 48 hour dark period . They found a significant shift in both thc content and terpene profile after the dark period.

If you can provide any reference material I'll read it for sure. I enjoy reading popular science from time to time.
Creating a valid scientific study that can do these types of tests are incredibly challenging. Testing methodologies generally fall apart upon detailed scrutiny. Manipulating a test to give a desired result are very common, like here.
What happens to the plant if after 36 hours of darkness we put them back into the light? Do the trichs degrade? Does it grow again? Herms?

 

[Braddah Waiheesohai]

If you can provide any reference material I'll read it for sure. I enjoy reading popular science from time to time.
Creating a valid scientific study that can do these types of tests are incredibly challenging. Testing methodologies generally fall apart upon detailed scrutiny. Manipulating a test to give a desired result are very common, like here.
What happens to the plant if after 36 hours of darkness we put them back into the light? Do the trichs degrade? Does it grow again? Herms?

You are a beautiful snowflake friend.

 

[safeman]

I Agree with the dark span at time of flip to flower cycle that makes sense to me considering the flip is unnatural when considering how actual sun cycles work. We are manipulating mother nature when we bring them inside and start controlling things for our benefits not necessarily for the plants benefit. I generalized my comment based on reading several posts from this thread I apologize if I wasn’t clear or seemed pointed to your post.
I enjoy reading peoples opinions and perceptions of growing nuances it makes me think and consider how I can improve on my own practices.
Grow Hard & Happy 420!!

you are right un-natural mean stress to the plant and it can affect it in many ways - always want to learn from others the Green Latern method of growing is one method that has many on/off lightcycles within a 24hr fame time (to be specific have to check on that method of light/dark times it's like 3-4 cycles of light/dark within a 24hr period

 

[MAK1]

You are a beautiful snowflake friend.

You are a beautiful snowflake friend.

I was hoping you might provide something useful to add to the conversation. You offer only insults. When people can't even handle a question being asked it truly shows your weakness.

 

[AdaminCO]

If you can provide any reference material I'll read it for sure. I enjoy reading popular science from time to time.
Creating a valid scientific study that can do these types of tests are incredibly challenging. Testing methodologies generally fall apart upon detailed scrutiny. Manipulating a test to give a desired result are very common, like here.
What happens to the plant if after 36 hours of darkness we put them back into the light? Do the trichs degrade? Does it grow again? Herms?

You don’t put it back into the lights… lol!
You chop and harvest after 36 hours in the dark. Trics would degrade and I doubt you can herm a plant thats fully matured. That would only be the human species. Lol!

Please research a bit more on stimulation and threat responses with cannabis. I’d hate to see you play in the droughting sandbox.

There are a lot of unexplained things that go on in the world. Denying something works, that youve never personally experimented with… makes you seem very narrow minded. We run across folks of your stature a lot in this community. We simply shake our heads… well some do. Some folks continue to try convincing the unconvinced.

For folks that have been around here for awhile, trying new things with this plant species is how we’ve evolved in the cannabis world.

Try spending some time studying the cannabis plant and it’s defensive mechanisms… possibly a have few more experimental grows under your belt, troll a bit less, you’ll catch on.

We grow weeds, not fruits and veggies. They are NOT created equal.

To you I say FAREWELL, may your future trolling adventures be as wasteful as this conversation has been.

 

[AdaminCO]

you are right un-natural mean stress to the plant and it can affect it in many ways - always want to learn from others the Green Latern method of growing is one method that has many on/off lightcycles within a 24hr fame time (to be specific have to check on that method of light/dark times it's like 3-4 cycles of light/dark within a 24hr period

12 hours lights on, followed by 5.5 hours of lights off, one hour of lights on, and then 5.5 hours of lights off.

Belusi was looking at running a 16 on 16 off schedule for his bloom schedule. It would be nice if they’d legalize cultivation at the federal level so we can have more scientific “controlled” experiments to “officially” debunk some of the things we see being discussed. Until then we’re stuck trying off the wall hypothesis on our own.

 

[Braddah Waiheesohai]

I was hoping you might provide something useful to add to the conversation. You offer only insults. When people can't even handle a question being asked it truly shows your weakness.

No @MAK1 I'm not insulting you. You are special and unique. Clearly the most reasonable, kind, open minded person here. I'm certain your charm and patience will change a lot of hearts and minds.

 

[Emilya Green]

12 hours lights on, followed by 5.5 hours of lights off, one hour of lights on, and then 5.5 hours of lights off.

Belusi was looking at running a 16 on 16 off schedule for his bloom schedule. It would be nice if they’d legalize cultivation at the federal level so we can have more scientific “controlled” experiments to “officially” debunk some of the things we see being discussed. Until then we’re stuck trying off the wall hypothesis on our own.

The actual name for this technique is called the Gas Lantern Routine and was developed hundreds of years ago by farmers in the fields needing to extend the veg season a little longer than the sun was allowing.

 

[AdaminCO]

The actual name for this technique is called the Gas Lantern Routine and was developed hundreds of years ago by farmers in the fields needing to extend the veg season a little longer than the sun was allowing.

Yeah I read up on it a few years again. They say the farmers couldn’t figure out what was keeping the crops in Veg longer. Come to find out it was because they would check the crops at night (with gas lanterns or torches) causing a break in the dark period, therefore prolonging the VEG cycle.

Severely paraphrasing, but that’s how I understand it’s origination.

 

[Emilya Green]

Yeah I read up on it a few years again. They say the farmers couldn’t figure out what was keeping the crops in Veg longer. Come to find out it was because they would check the crops at night (with gas lanterns or torches) causing a break in the dark period, therefore prolonging the VEG cycle.

Severely paraphrasing, but that’s how I understand it’s origination.

I further understand that this happened as a response to plagues of locusts and other pests as far back biblical times, due to an effort to save their fields by fighting off nocturnal pests. It did sort of work to save some fields, and then they noticed that veg had gone longer than they expected.

 

[Nortonnabis]

...It would be nice if they’d legalize cultivation at the federal level so we can have more scientific “controlled” experiments to “officially” debunk some of the things we see being discussed. Until then we’re stuck trying off the wall hypothesis on our own.

Here, here! To science! And controlled experiments!

I realize you did an A-B-C test on Dark Before Harvest. That's one experiment. Thanks for your work!
I'm looking forward to Emilya's next grow when she said she'd do good controlled A-B testing on some of these 'off the wall things'.

But then you'll see someone with more 'plant nute products' sitting on the shelf than I have food in my cupboard.
And you'll read, "No Brah, it's got to be Black Strap Molasses." SMH

I'm a noob here.
I have grown under a 1000w MH and a 600w HPS, years ago. Nice exhaust fan, duct work, variable speed controlled from outside the room by looking remotely at temp in the room. Random seeds, didn't know about drying and curing. It was not good. And I was worried about the news of local growers getting their homes searched from multiple ways of targeting growers. Didn't want to lose my home for a weed. Sold them years later and only had that one grow.

I have grown vegi and flower garden starter plants under two 6-tube T5HO's for years now. 250W each!
Thinking of adding those parallel on each side of my new 350W LED grow light in a back closet.
Still planning and gathering supplies.

Hell, I'm now questioning FF feed schedules for 'flushing'. As said, this is not done on outdoor grows.
As Emmie said, their goal may be, 'sell as much product as we can'.
What would be the eminent result of not flushing. 'nute lockout'? How is that defined?
There's easy opportunity for me to do some A-B testing!

I'm just a noob, and a skeptic. Tell me some wacky folklore, no matter how ancient, and I'll be skeptical.

 

[Emilya Green]

Hell, I'm now questioning FF feed schedules for 'flushing'. As said, this is not done on outdoor grows.
As Emmie said, their goal may be, 'sell as much product as we can'.
What would be the eminent result of not flushing. 'nute lockout'? How is that defined?
There's easy opportunity for me to do some A-B testing!

outdoor in the ground is a whole lot different than outdoor or indoor in closed containers. In the ground leftover salts dissipate, whereas in a closed container, they have nowhere to go. In a closed container, with synthetic nutes, especially those as strong as FF, you have no choice, you have to flush.

If you don't, you get salt lockout... I have seen it hundreds of times, it is a thing, and it is a thing easily solved with a bit of extra water. Salt lockout will cause the plant not to get needed nutrients at least half of the time and can allow some nutrients to get through while others dont, creating imbalances and other lockouts.

Also, Emmie never said that nutrient companies are having you wash away stuff so that they can sell the most nutrients they can. In skilled hands, those suggested nutrient levels and scheduled flushes are just right, and they allow you to grow awesome plants. FF has no incentive to suggest that you overfeed your plants... you would never buy their product again once you realized.

 

[AdaminCO]

Here, here! To science! And controlled experiments!

I realize you did an A-B-C test on Dark Before Harvest. That's one experiment. Thanks for your work!
I'm looking forward to Emilya's next grow when she said she'd do good controlled A-B testing on some of these 'off the wall things'.

But then you'll see someone with more 'plant nute products' sitting on the shelf than I have food in my cupboard.
And you'll read, "No Brah, it's got to be Black Strap Molasses." SMH

I'm a noob here.
I have grown under a 1000w MH and a 600w HPS, years ago. Nice exhaust fan, duct work, variable speed controlled from outside the room by looking remotely at temp in the room. Random seeds, didn't know about drying and curing. It was not good. And I was worried about the news of local growers getting their homes searched from multiple ways of targeting growers. Didn't want to lose my home for a weed. Sold them years later and only had that one grow.

I have grown vegi and flower garden starter plants under two 6-tube T5HO's for years now. 250W each!
Thinking of adding those parallel on each side of my new 350W LED grow light in a back closet.
Still planning and gathering supplies.

Hell, I'm now questioning FF feed schedules for 'flushing'. As said, this is not done on outdoor grows.
As Emmie said, their goal may be, 'sell as much product as we can'.
What would be the eminent result of not flushing. 'nute lockout'? How is that defined?
There's easy opportunity for me to do some A-B testing!

I'm just a noob, and a skeptic. Tell me some wacky folklore, no matter how ancient, and I'll be skeptical.

The only thing I worry about with molasses is whether it unsuphured.

I believe the misconception is that you can feed your plant molasses to make it sweeter… which is BS. You can’t make a molecule of N taste sweeter. What you can do is trigger certain responses within the plant, and in doing that you will enhance your terpene profile therefore changing the taste.

I’ve read that mites trigger a certain terpene profile. It’s said they can actually isolate the specific terpene mites/bugs cause the plant to produce. Now who the hell would introduce those little demon babies willingly, no clue, but holding over in darkness, stick splitting, HST, UV, and many other things are just an attempt to cause stress, which in turns enhances your terpene profile. That’s the goal right?

I only use molasses in my compost teas in order to feed the microbes in the soil. If you’re not running and organic grow, there’s no point, that I’m aware of, in adding it to your feed. There might be usable nutrients for your plant… sure, but I couldnt tell you which ones the plant can use. @Emilya can I’m sure. She’s the organic queen in my book.

I believe I saw @Emilya explain lockout earlier in this thread so I won’t bore you with that again. What she described is how 99% of the community understands and believes.

My personal opinion… you can take what she says to the bank. I’ve been relying on her and a handful of others on here for years. It usually easy to spot the folks that are helpful.

I hate the flush discussion… if you’re using bottled nutrients, depending on how you water and feed, you could possibly need to flush out the residual salt that has been stuck or leftover over the period of the grow. Usually 3x the container size. Again, it really depends on a handful of variables. If you water to runoff, that tends to help with the issue.

Its not really necessary in organics, unless you want to “reset” the soil. I would semi flush my organic grows because the teas I brewed would make the top layer start to solidify. About halfway through Veg and halfway through Flower I would run 5 gallons or so of fresh spring water with Great White mica or URB mixed into the last Gallon.

The only true test in my opinion is done with clones from the same plant. That it’s the only way to have a true control in the experiment. I’ve had seeds from the same plant turn out to be a completely different looking and acting, so just because they are the same strain doesn’t make them equal.

All litters have a runt…

My darkness test was done with 3 sets of clones, 3 different strains. All showed the same results. 36 hours (for whatever reason) showed a substantial tric increase. I can’t explain why because my plants don’t speak English. Lol!
All I know is that this is what happens when I hold them over, I like more trics, so I hold them over.

We were all noobs at some point…
Bro Science is debunked all the time. The only way to sort through the BS (like that?) is to experiment.

 

[MAK1]

Hell, I'm now questioning FF feed schedules for 'flushing'. As said, this is not done on outdoor grows.
As Emmie said, their goal may be, 'sell as much product as we can'.
What would be the eminent result of not flushing. 'nute lockout'? How is that defined?
There's easy opportunity for me to do some A-B testing!

If you follow the FF schedule it wants to "push" the plants to produce without hurting them. This is going to result in an imbalance. When this imbalance get to be too great the plants stop growing. Now you have created a nutrient lockout. Wash away the excess fertilizer and avoid this problem.
There are so many different media used each may hold or not hold nutrients well. There is no way FF can control this so everyone MUST flush so that NO ONE looses a plant. We flush due to over fertilizing which happens easily with synthetic fertilizers. If you want bigger buds, over-fertilize and flush.
This is gardening 101. It is not much different than cucumbers, tomatoes, or asparagus. Gardening can be very spiritual, it is not a religion. This marijuana growing community is more like a cult.

 

[safeman]

12 hours lights on, followed by 5.5 hours of lights off, one hour of lights on, and then 5.5 hours of lights off.

Belusi was looking at running a 16 on 16 off schedule for his bloom schedule. It would be nice if they’d legalize cultivation at the federal level so we can have more scientific “controlled” experiments to “officially” debunk some of the things we see being discussed. Until then we’re stuck trying off the wall hypothesis on our own.

never heard of the 16 on and then 16 off ? wish there was more info on that cycle -- thanks !!! As for the conversation going on - let it lay - don't mean nothing - we are cultivators and can learn from each other If one wants to learn oer share - that's it nothing more - let smoke the "peace-pipe" !!!!!!! you must inhale tho

 

[safeman]

Yeah I read up on it a few years again. They say the farmers couldn’t figure out what was keeping the crops in Veg longer. Come to find out it was because they would check the crops at night (with gas lanterns or torches) causing a break in the dark period, therefore prolonging the VEG cycle.

Severely paraphrasing, but that’s how I understand it’s origination.

know some outdoor growes thatuse this cycle for their clones they make in the winter to plant in the spring - it does work !!

 

[Nortonnabis]

If you follow the FF schedule it wants to "push" the plants to produce without hurting them. This is going to result in an imbalance. When this imbalance get to be too great the plants stop growing. Now you have created a nutrient lockout. ...
... There is no way FF can control this so everyone MUST flush so that NO ONE looses a plant. We flush due to over fertilizing which happens easily with synthetic fertilizers. If you want bigger buds, over-fertilize and flush.
This is gardening 101. ...

So 'Nute Lockout' is described as 'the plants stop growing'? That's it?
-What if I don't 'over fertilize'? What would that be? 1/2 to 3/4 their recommendation, but same schedule?

I read of using a Temp/Humidity sensor hanging from the light as a growth height reference point.
-If I were to keep a log of the height of the plant every few days, (or once per week?), I could see that the plant has stopped getting taller, and that indicates it's time to do a 3x container flush? I can do that!

-I got my 5 gal cloth pots the other day. Should these be on some sort of grate to keep the bottoms off the trays they sit in?

Side note: I went to a local hardware store. Not the big chain stores. They showed that they carry Fox Farm products, and at great prices!
I went the to the garden section and didn't find any, just the miracle grow soils and such. I was sad.
Then as I wondered, there they were! A wide center aisle was full of FF soils and a shelves of nutes and such!
It's like they're catering to us!! Thanks guys!

It's hard to come up with a plan/routine by just poking around on this forum. It's hundreds of opinions all spread out. I try to find the knowledgeable ones and follow them to glean info.
-Is there a current book or video series to recommend?
Should I start my journal as a 'Got my gear! Now what?' place to ask these questions (-), instead of jumping in here and there?
Sadly the grow room is not up and running yet. Maybe I'll get my arse in gear this evening....
I know I have to get control of heat and humidity before I start any seeds.
Seeds are on the way! And dozens of pepper and tomato seeds that want to come out and play!