Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

@ ScienceGrow

It's funny how one can "think" in this day of age. Especially the younger generation. They pick up a book & they think they can read. They watch a movie & they think it's real... It's sad how one can preconceive something so strongly without actually lifting a finger and experimenting or putting the actual time in to learn themselves, on a "hands on basis". It's actually ignorant in a way.. But, nevertheless it is a good topic to discuss and bring up. Cause our world is all about learning and striving for new excellence....

I also have been cultivating marijuana for over 17 + years. YOU DO NOT disrespect your elders, especially in this world.. It's us true breeder/cultivators who have lived a lifetime of experimentation and hands on work to produce the great cannabis you cultivate/ingest today.. Remember that. ;). Along with experimentation comes hands on knowledge. Which in turn, is much greater then any book you can read. Are you also going to go read a book and tell me how you "think" the aromas are in Koh Yao Thailand? Or how the the sounds of the waves washing up on shore are, while gazing out into the ocean watching the tropical birds fly around?? OR do you think you should listen to a person who has been there and actually lived it.. Don't get me wrong here "Scifi" but if you want to "discuss" this issue, I would advise you to take a minute, sit back, and listen to us professionals who have been doing this since you where a little pup in your mommas arms.
But please by all means, continue to bring up similar topics, cause this is a learning ground for all those beginners out there. And to tell you the truth, I learned from this as well. Everyday is a learning process. :)

Now, this doesn't mean you can't bring up the subject, or even express what you're thoughts are on it, but it dose mean you need to slow down, understand that the people you are talking to are "professionals".(some of us) We have been doing this a looooong time. Sure, you can go read any book you want and have a accurate judgement on the subject. But you CAN NOT dismiss the fact of our decades of hands on experience. Sorry, but life just doesn't work like that. IF we all went on preconceived notions then where in the hell would this world be today?? Just because i read something online or i n a book?....... I do resent the fact you mentioned that we were "feeding our plants wrong" for how many years.... I have more knowledge and years experience in this field then you. You need to learn to fully grasp the words you are saying. Because it seems you spend to much time in a thesauruses then actually growing marijuana. Sure you talk the talk. But you have proven to us all here, you're defiantly a very strongly preconceived individual.


PS: All this being said, there isn't a ounce of hate in me. :love: Everyone get's irritated from time to time. It's called being human. We all do not agree on the same subject or things.....So at the end of the day, my hats off to you. You're a bright young kid. & suggest good ideas. You just need to learn that there are people out there with WAY more experience then yourself and you should actually listen to what they have to say, to progress your process farther. I have been doing this 17+ years and have been cultivating medical marijuana for hundreds if not thousands of people here in BC for the past 6 years. I do think I have quite a bit more experience then yourself. I have a 18,000 sq ft growing facility. I'm also the head grower here, and it's on my personal 40 acre property in the mountains.. So please try to understand where I'm coming from here. And take some advice from a professional and choose your words better. Still bring up these topics, but do not throw around condescending attitude. ("This tells me you haven't learned to feed your plants properly in the 17 years you've been growing them. ", - is what you said correct?) haha, made me laugh...... Love, peace and happiness to all! :love::Namaste::high-five:
 
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

I'm sorry Kidgrow, but when I read this post I'm reminded of Peptic Ulcers.

For decades the experts and professions in the medical field were convinced they were caused by stress, spicy food, etc. If it hadn't been for the groundbreaking work of Robin Warren and Barry J. Marshall, we might still not know they are actually usually caused by H. pylori, an easy to treat bacterium.

Their research was initially very poorly received, nearly everyone advised them to take a minute, sit back, and listen to the professionals who have been doing this since they were a little pup in their momma's arms.

Meanwhile, millions including my grandfather suffered at the hands of the professionals that lived a lifetime to bring us their medical knowledge and experience, all the while sucking down gallons of Milk of Magnesia while trying to reduce their stress levels, never knowing a two week course of antibiotics could have cured them. Meanwhile 300 thousand people a year died from untreated ulcers. Horrible.

Drs. Warren and Marshall were finally awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 2005, 23 years after their discovery. Even more horrible.

There is some chance that everyone, including yourself, has been feeding our plants improperly for optimum growth all along and never realized it. To dismiss this possibility is straight hubris.

You have both been a bit snippy and disrespectful of each other. Let's all take a minute, sit back, and remember that 420mag is better than that.
 
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

I'm sorry Kidgrow, but when I read this post I'm reminded of Peptic Ulcers.

For decades the experts and professions in the medical field were convinced they were caused by stress, spicy food, etc. If it hadn't been for the groundbreaking work of Robin Warren and Barry J. Marshall, we might still not know they are actually usually caused by H. pylori, an easy to treat bacterium.

Their research was initially very poorly received, nearly everyone advised them to take a minute, sit back, and listen to the professionals who have been doing this since they were a little pup in their momma's arms.

Meanwhile, millions including my grandfather suffered at the hands of the professionals that lived a lifetime to bring us their medical knowledge and experience, all the while sucking down gallons of Milk of Magnesia while trying to reduce their stress levels, never knowing a two week course of antibiotics could have cured them. Meanwhile 300 thousand people a year died from untreated ulcers. Horrible.

Drs. Warren and Marshall were finally awarded the Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine in 2005, 23 years after their discovery. Even more horrible.

There is some chance that everyone, including yourself, has been feeding our plants improperly for optimum growth all along and never realized it. To dismiss this possibility is straight hubris.

You have both been a bit snippy and disrespectful of each other. Let's all take a minute, sit back, and remember that 420mag is better than that.

I'm sorry if what we speak offends you. I truly am (and probably ScienceGrow as well). But there is no insinuating "hate" on the behalf of anyone in this thread. Just because our words might be hard spoken, dose not mean anyone is offending each other in a unjustified immature manner. I'm sorry to hurt your feelings here "art", but either grow a strong sense of self, or please just don't respond to anything we say to each other. (SG and me) The "evidence" is in the bucket -if you would. All you have to do is read it. We both strongly worded what our opinions where on the matter. I felt a little disrespected myself so I let him know about it in a respectful manner. Just because I strongly express my feelings/words, dose not mean one has the right to come to such a preconceive notion on how the current state of affairs are. If you can't handle it please refrain from responding or inbox me and we will talk about it like adults, not here for the world to see. Because really, at this point, you're just adding fuel to the fire.

Once again I will say this, love peace and happiness to all. I have no quarrels with you Art. What you do not know is that I am speaking with sciencegrow in private as well. So please don't be so quick to judge. We are talking it out in a mature manner. (I don't think you would be able to handle "listening in", if you think what we said above demotes or makes 420mag look bad.) What you have just said will now manipulate the way the situation actually is unfolding. All these onlookers will come to yet another preconceived notion on who we are, solely because you can't handle "strong wording" and made the remarks you have. Now, please do not look at this as me "attacking" you haha trust me I never "attack" anyone, I cant hurt a fly... It's not whom I am... But I know how to intellectually and socially behave and hold myself in every situation. I run a fare sized company and have many networks around the world. I am very confident in my social life. I have earn this confidence over many years of being insecure. It took me along time to get out of that rut. So please, thoroughly process your "2 cents" before posting in-front of the world to see. Now, we're going to look like the bad guys. because someone is scared of confidence and doesn't understand strong wording... You have commented suggesting that "420mag" is "Better then this". excuse me for kindlyand appropriately standing up for myself. Next time I'll just allow everyone to walk all over me, and I'll go back to being insecure because your own preconceived values.... Sorry, life doesn't work like that either... Now I would appreciate it if this conversation would be done. (with us Art) OR inbox me. Please do not jump into a already controlled situation and think your doing anyone any good by doing so... again Much love and prosperity to you and everyone else. All I am here to do is help others. Nothing less nothing more. And Ive been doing a very good job at that. I have allot of good responses from a ton of individuals on this site. This is a kind disagreement. We are not swinging fists or cussin like neanderthals here....

Now as for the "Optimal growth" lol im sure in 100 years they are going to be saying that about us. and another hundred after that again.... Of course, it is what it is. But, I have not been" feeding my plants wrong in any manner." Just because I eat my home bred or hunted wild game doesn't make you or anyone else that purchases their food from the grocery store in the "wrong". Or you're "wrongfully eating" It just means, you can get slightly better results. Sometimes only on a cellular level... This is why I had to strongly word my words. Because people in this day of age are so easily manipulated into believing such incremental things matter. (in this case, flushing is the best solution to flush your plants system out of all the build up nutes, which will effect the taste if you don't.) Evidence is in the puddin' Arty. Now you can use (like i said above) water soluble organic minerals. Like nitrogen, potassium, potash... so on so forth. and if done right (like i also said above),, it will work and you wont have to flush. there is a guy named "Harely Smith" (google him) He is one of the worlds most intellectual beings on the chemistry of plant life and the science behind it. This guy is with NPK water=soluable and he Never flushs's his vegetables.(and he is one of the best lettuce growers in the world, to ever exist!) because he knows (after years of trial and error *Cough cough*) how to exactly feed the plant what it needs directly. therefor no mineral build up or nute build up.. therefor no flushing... I know this. But, obviously we are not here to become scientists and re learn everything over again. What we do is adjust, and become the best we can for what we are doing and where we are going ( I must be doing something right Art, the "numbers" I did in 2015 are in the 7 digit category.....) So, I'm yet sorry again to say, I have not been feeding my plant "wrong" Just in a different fashion that is also excellent and optimal. There will always be "another best way" for something. It never ends. Let's not blow this out proportion now shall we?..
 
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

Yes there is an attitude problem. I'd be just as happy to learn that flushing is a myth as I would to learn that it's not. My comment to SG met with a confusing soapbox speech or two, based on preconceived notions and unrelated to my comments, apparently without taking the time to even read what I actually said. This to me seemed extremely unscientific to say the least and is why I didn't bother to stick around. I'm not a scientist, but it seems to me that all the best scientists function by intelligent observation combined with study and experimentation. We grow as people in life by using our powers of observation. Personal experience isn't worthless, it's invaluable. Learning 'facts' from other people's 'clinical studies' and mistaking this for knowledge is a common mistake. When university grads and academics have to go out and work in the real world, they have a hard time understanding why the people with actual life experience are laughing at them so hard. No, I'm not laughing at you ScienceGrow. I respect your effort and you seem like a nice guy, but I have to admit I was put off by your attitude. Life isn't a laboratory, and life experience, aka wisdom, is vital, even if you can't measure it in a beaker. I'd be happy to read more science on flushing though, and less preconceived ideas about what is 'right' and how the way we 'must' do things. It's good to be open minded. More fun too.
 
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

This guy sciencegrow is correct.

Im sorry guys flushing is a myth and if done early will harm yield and potency .

There's firm logic in the statement that if flushing is done too early it will harm growth. The extremes are never giving any nutes and giving only nutes. We know through easily performed experimentation that the effects of both are serious through to fatal.


I have a theory. If the flowers are sinks....wouldnt the flush dilute (the sink water) the nutes already inside of the flowers which would result in smoother smoke and flavor?

That has logical consistency. Not so much clearing them out nutes as diluting them. Good thinking and worth further research.
 
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

Here's an interesting article from way back in 2007:

A critical look at preharvest flushing


"Summary:
Preharvest flushing puts the plant(s) under serious stress. The plant has to deal with nutrient deficiencies in a very important part of its cycle. Strong changes in the amount of dissolved substances in the root-zone stress the roots, possibly to the point of direct physical damage to them. Many immobile elements are no more available for further metabolic processes. We are loosing the fan leaves and damage will show likely on new growth as well.

The grower should react in an educated way to the plant needs. Excessive, deficient or unbalanced levels should be avoided regardless the nutrient source. Nutrient levels should be gradually adjusted to the lesser needs in later flowering. Stress factors should be limited as far as possible. If that is accomplished throughout the entire life cycle, there shouldn’t be any excessive nutrient compounds in the plants tissue. It doesn’t sound likely to the author that you can correct growing errors (significant lower mobile nutrient compound levels) with preharvest flushing.

Drying and curing (when done right) on the other hand have proved (In many studies) to have a major impact on taste and flavour, by breaking down chlorophylls and converting starches into sugars. Most attributes blamed on unflushed buds may be the result of unbalanced nutrition and/or overfert and unproper drying/curing."
 
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

Here's an interesting article from way back in 2007:

A critical look at preharvest flushing

Its interesting when we see the cannabis community doing things that no other commercial horticulture industry does.

do we flush our hydroponic lettuces, strawberries just before harvest so they don't taste of nutrients. hmmm no.
horticulture is my profession and im a consultant, so do find it interesting some beliefs some here have.

Kiwiiwik
 
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

it might also be interesting to some that organic compounds can not be used by plants for growth, they have to be first converted into the exact same chemical elements as in chemical fertilizers and nutrients before the plants can use them, microbes in the soil do this.
 
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

Kidgrow and arteekay I love you both. Remember the love that brought us here. We share, we love, we grow my brothers.

For me I have done both flush and my non classical "flush" like I talked about before in this thread. I cut down nutes to about 400 ppm for the last few weeks instead of plain water. It is less nutrient than the plants would use during that time so they still tend to use it all up by harvest. What I am trying to do is to prevent the plant from lacking nutrients to make terpenes etc. I do a last watering with just plain water because it isn't worth it to waste nutes at that point. I wait for the plant to use up the water and get dehydrated soil, then harvest. Some studies have shown that plants in dehydrated conditions the last few days increase terpene and trichome production.
Then I hang the plants in indirect light in the grow room while drying and rotate them every day. When buds are dry and stems dry but bendy I trim. I feel the drying in indirect light helps the hanging plant use up resources in the bud and the stress increases terpenes. (My anecdotal non scientific result though ymmv). Right now I am already smoking and vaping some of the plants from the first hunger games and there is no harshness from excess nutes.
 
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

What SG says about flowers being sinks does make sense to me. However, it also seems impossible for me personally to be able to try on paper to unravel all the complicated factors that go into a plants growing process and be able to say that I 'know' wtf is actually happening. Much easier to go the 'unscientific' route and do some side by side testing. I'm doing some plants from start to finish in solo cups this winter and ( if they live, lol) and I get the chance to do a side by side test of flushed/unflushed I will.
 
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

But also Weasel and in line with arteekay's article and my recent experience; no need to flush, feed weak nutes and it encourages the plant to use the weak nutes and what it has stored inside. My goal with the weak nutes instead of water is to provide the plant with a small nute deficit the last two weeks. It keeps using what it has stored and the nute supplement keeps it going and growing. As Kidgrow said up farther if you plan exactly what goes in and out of the plant a grower can adjust so there is no excess nutes right at harvest time.

You can try 400ppm PK nutes with micros the last two weeks with a final plain water feeding. At final feeding of water let them go to dryness in the soil. Helps terps and trichs. Some plant strains will need more or less low nute time. You learn each strain as you go along. This round my uncured bud is damn smooth and damn tasty no flush. Can't wait for it to cure.
 
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

There is absolutely no need to flush, I never flushed in my life, and I've been growing on and off for 14 years... only organically I'll add, no chelated nutrients ever so LOS style. Flushing your medium with water will result in two things: nitrates will run off cause they are anions so they do not strongly stick to the particles of the soil, and due to temporarily higher water concentration cations will start being absorbed better, but this includes potassium which is almost immobile in dry soil, which results in lowering your Brix if you have it too much in your soil in the first place. Just take a refractometer, take a reading before the flush, and one after, and you'll see how it affects the plant. Actually, the best way to finish the buds in an organic grow, if you're looking strictly into quality, is to run the plant for 5-10 days without any water. You need to dry it completely! But you won't know how prime bud tastes like if you never dialed in your soil, and it doesn't matter if you flush or if you don't, cause it's the composition of minerals and microlife that influences the smell and the taste, and that won't change with flush :Namaste:
 
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

In a non-organic grow using bottled nutrients, soilless/hydro, flushing is a quick and easy way to clear out the medium. A lot of people overfeed, as it takes a lot of experience and skill to try and manage feeding levels with this type of grow, and it's generally unrealistic to expect to maintain a perfect balance of all the nutrients a plant needs throughout its life. With a plant that is not fed at optimum levels, which is most of them, flushing would be the easiest way to clean out the medium. Not nearly as good as keeping within the ideal nutrient ranges throughout, and bringing the plant to a gentle finish, but it still has its uses and would be better than leaving the plant to finish in a near toxic stew. I don't think anyone expects flushing to somehow suck the nutrients out of the plant itself but I would think that if you have to buy herb out on the street, flushed would be better than unflushed. Which is more or less what's been said already- that it relates to management of overfeeding.
 
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

I've been thinking the same I actually remember someone writing that flush cleans your buds. Once I tried to explain that it's biologically and chemically impossible but I met a wall.
 
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

I nutrient taper after week 8.

See E.C ranges below

VEG

If SEEDS just pure water for 4 days after germination than start.

week 1) 0.6 - 1.2

week 2) 1.0 - 1.6

week 3) 1.0 - 1.6 If longer veg required repeat week 3


FLOWER

week 4) 1.2 - 1.8

week 5) 1.2 - 1.8

week 6) 1.3 - 2.0

week) 7) 1.3 - 2.0

week 8) 1.3 - 2.2

week 9) 1.3 - 2.0

week 10) 1.3 - 1.8

week 11) 1.0 - 1.6



Cut feeding/water until very slight plant droop.



HARVEST

Example as Strains differ
 
re: Flushing & Leaching & Final Bud Swell

Thats why i say flushing dilutes them not rinses.
It may dilute "them", but the dry would then undilute them. So probably not, though this is PRECISELY what I believe is the actual cause of the difference many detect in flavor between organic and synthetic nutrients. Synthetics usually grow larger plants.

Anyway, again, nobody to my knowledge has bothered to do a chemical analysis on dry plant matter before at and after harvest, on at least two but preferably more plants.

I'll be sure to conduct a full on experiment this summer with the six Frisian Ducks I'll be growing outside. This is a decent sample size and provides lots more data points than my current Snowstorm grow.

I'll day again, experience is no substitute for actual knowledge. Thousands of years of simple Experience had people believing the world flat and stationary with everyrhing flying around the earth.

Experience is valuable in finding patterns. Science is valuable for explaining and understanding what causes those patterns.

Rather than ASSUMING the cause of an experience, I am trying to find the actual cause.

Flushing APPEARS to many to have an effect on bud quality. My question is, why? What physiological process in the plant could allow this to occur?

Since I can't get inside the plant myself and watch, what happens, and since I want an answer, the next step is effect. I've flushed, so what's the effect.

Proponents agree on this at least, but the methodology is horribly flawed. Taste is a matter of opinion to begin with, and ones experience subjective and modified by a litany of factors, including environment and even current mood. Your enjoyment of an experience can be affected by many factors, not just the thing being enjoyed. This is a problem.

So instead, we look at what ISN'T dependent on other factors. Matter.

So again, I'll be testing the MATTER of the plant at several key times for a flushed plant, a plant fed to harvest, and a plant that gets standard treatment of slowly dropping nutes to harvest. I'll do this with three organically grown, and three with synthetic nutes.

And that SHOULD, but almost certainly WON'T, settle the argument.

If it doesn't fit your worldview, it's not real. Religion.

I'm atheist.

Note: Thanks to defenders of the scientific method. Rather than adhering to what amounts to religious dogma, you question, even if it's not what you currently believe. Have a new kid and busy so haven't been around much.
 
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