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Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical?

Harry Red

Nug of the Month: Nov & Dec 2008, Mar 2009 - Plant of the Month: Oct 2008, Feb & May 2009
In the short time I've been using these lights, I've noticed that plants directly under the light seem to have a fine upper canopy but the branches get more shade, causing the branches plant to grow slower and more vertically. The plants around the edges of get more light from top to bottom so the side branches are bushier and longer, but the top cola gets more stretched.

I've saw what was referred to as a "Vertical" grow on another site where the hood was removed and the light suspended in the middle, with the plants surrounding it. The grower claimed to get better results with this setup and better nugs from top to bottom. There would not be 50% reflected light but you'd get direct light from 360 degrees. He would rotate the plants periodically as well.

It occurs to me that using a hood might be better for sog/scrog or when you're keeping plants low. I noticed that many who scrog must use multiple lights as well in an effort to cover more area.

I'm thinking that for growing larger plants using the "Vertical" method might be a good thing.

Anyone tried this or have other thoughts about it?

Harry
 

Racefan

Well-Known Member
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

Your wrong with your thinking. The bulbs do not put light out at the end so all your light would be to the sides. The reflector actually helps by redirecting more lumens to where you need it. if you need more side lighting consider adding some cheap floros to the sides or add a light rail.
 

Harry Red

Nug of the Month: Nov & Dec 2008, Mar 2009 - Plant of the Month: Oct 2008, Feb & May 2009
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

I think getting light from the sides with full 360 deg coverage is the whole point RaceFan.

They claim to be able to bud out 15 good size plants with a single 600w bulb.

Here's an example. Looks impressive..

vertgrow.jpg


Harry
 

Racefan

Well-Known Member
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

Well after years of running a bare MH and then going to a hps in a reflector I can state with 100% certainty that the hooded light out performs the unhooded light. But it's your grow and your yield that is affected. Not mine. So go ahead and try it. It's the only "real" way for you to know if it's what you want to do. Sorry I couldn't of been more help.
 

Harry Red

Nug of the Month: Nov & Dec 2008, Mar 2009 - Plant of the Month: Oct 2008, Feb & May 2009
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

Well, seemed your initial objection was that no light came out of the tip and I was only pointing out that it didn't seem to be an issue because the plants surrounded the light and no plants were directly under the bulb.

I certainly see your point about being able to focus the light better with the hood. However, this technique does seem worthy of discussion and perhaps further experimentation.

Thanks RaceFan!

Harry
 

KUSH302

New Member
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

I agree with Racefan and DaMagoMan 100%.A enclosed aircooled reflector is the best way to go.With a aircooled reflector your temps are lower so you are able to have the light closer to your plants.
 

Harry Red

Nug of the Month: Nov & Dec 2008, Mar 2009 - Plant of the Month: Oct 2008, Feb & May 2009
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

I do understand that Kush302 but for example in my case, I have a 600w HPS in a plain open air hood. Because of location and design of my flower room, heat buildup and space is not an issue. I can get the light right down on the plants (10" or so) with just a 6" fan blowing over the top of the plant. My temps stay at 70-75 degrees at all times. I'm in a cool basement that's probably 24'x40' with full HVAC.

I can only get one, maybe two, decent size plants right under the light though, so any others end up being on the periphery anyway.

I can grow 4 to 6 plants (depending on size) with the hood and that's enough for my own personal use. I'm not so sure there's a "one size fits all" solution for everyone and I think there's always room for some outside the box thinking. The people who are doing this claim 1-1.5 oz per plant so that's quite a yield when you multiply x 15.

If I were to need to grow more plants, I would certainly give the vertical method a try before spending more money on lights and extra energy.

For now though, I may just add a couple of CFLs as RF suggested, if I need more light at the base.

Nice discussion.
peace.gif


Harry
 

KUSH302

New Member
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

How is then that i'm able to get 2-3 ounce's per plant with a single 400hps aircooled light? Please explain this to me.
 
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Harry Red

Nug of the Month: Nov & Dec 2008, Mar 2009 - Plant of the Month: Oct 2008, Feb & May 2009
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

Well no. I never said I knew anything about lighting. I'm simply asking questions and wanting a better, perhaps a more scientific explanation, to my query. Clearly, you are the "end all and be all" of all things lighting though. ;)

2 to 3 oz? Well, I've saw examples of people getting triple that or more from a 400w bulb, with a single plant though. This person claims to be able to get 1.5oz+ per plant x 15 with this vertical setup so I believe you are comparing apples to oranges.

Anyway. I didn't come here to get into a pizzing contest with you or anyone. Sorry if I don't take one person's opinion as the final word on any given topic. Thanks for yours.

peace.gif


Harry
 

Harry Red

Nug of the Month: Nov & Dec 2008, Mar 2009 - Plant of the Month: Oct 2008, Feb & May 2009
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

I'm not sure what I'll be able to grow indoors at this point.

If you have anything else of value to add to the thread, please do so.

Thanks!

Harry
 
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MayorGreenBud

New Member
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

I ask you, anytime you have seen an HPS, or MH light, in a garden or not, (like for general lighting purposes) do you see the bulb like the example you give, or do you see it in a reflector style hood.

why would you suppose they would use a reflector??

Light doesn't bend, so thinking of that, tell me where most of the light is being dispersed in your suggested light setup. its wasting energy.
 
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Be Irie

Nug of the Year: 2009 - Plant of the Month: Aug & Sept 2008, Dec 2008, Jan 2009 - Member of the Month: Feb 2009 - Nug of the Month: May 2008, Jan & Feb 2009, Nov 2012
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

Great post Harry, looks like you got a few reactions, always a good sign.. You actually got me thinking, once I get my 600 I think I will try this with the 400 MH. Hang it in the middle and the 600 overhead. I have been using a bunch of CFLs for all the side and low lighting so should be able to see if there is any sorta difference.. Cool beans...:peace::roorrip: think outside the box...
 

Boss

Well-Known Member
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

May growers use verticals with no reflectors, or a canopy hex reflector. They usually do this with multiple lights throughout the room, or if they are growing on the walls in tilted pots.

Vertical lighting has it's place, just like cfl's, Leds, hps horizontals, cool tubes and so on. If anyone claims they have the best setup, it may be the best for their situation, but never the best for every situation.

By the way Mayor, The most efficient use of a HID light is in the vertical position, base DOWN, just above and below the plant heights in multiple locations throughout the room, with an almost flat circular hood hanging 6" from the top of the bulb. This way the light comes directly from all sides of the bulb at 100%, not half at 100% and the rest at whatever the reflective hood provides. It's the reason many growers use this method. It also has a tendency to remove any shadow spots that can come from uneven or warped horizontal reflectors. Direct light is always better than reflected light.

You may wanna look at some of Racefans photos of the hydro vertical grow systems. They all use vertical base down lighting.
 
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Harry Red

Nug of the Month: Nov & Dec 2008, Mar 2009 - Plant of the Month: Oct 2008, Feb & May 2009
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

why would you suppose they would use a reflector??
Because they were trying to focus light in a specific direction. However, that may not necessarily be your goal.

Light doesn't bend
Actually, light can be bent. Not in your grow room, but it can be bent. It can also be refracted. This is the kind of pitfall one falls into when they make blanket statements like this, which might be considered by some to be nonsense. ;)

Great post Harry, looks like you got a few reactions, always a good sign.. You actually got me thinking, once I get my 600 I think I will try this with the 400 MH. Hang it in the middle and the 600 overhead. I have been using a bunch of CFLs for all the side and low lighting so should be able to see if there is any sorta difference.. Cool beans...:peace::roorrip: think outside the box...
Yeppers. I've always been told that there's more that one way to skin a cat. Combining horizontal and vertical bulbs sounds like a pretty good idea and worth testing out.

Many growers use verticals with no reflectors, or a canopy hex reflector. They usually do this with multiple lights throughout the room, or if they are growing on the walls in tilted pots.

Vertical lighting has it's place, just like cfl's, Leds, hps horizontals, cool tubes and so on.

Direct light is always better than reflected light.
Thanks Boss man. I suspected as much from my reading and I'm glad to get some confirmation on that.

If anyone claims they have the best setup, it may be the best for their situation, but never the best for every situation.
Very well said!!
 
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NoLogo

New Member
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

looks like your being given a bit of a hard time in here harry, keep your head up :439: your questions makes alot of sense to me, and alot of cage and vertical growth systems like the coliseum take advantage of a light with no reflector, getting growth all around the light. i would be interested to see you try it vertically and whether you notice an increase in yields. good luck :peace:
 

MayorGreenBud

New Member
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

haha, leave it to stoners to over complicate simple things.
I am still uncertain on what your goals are.
if you pull your hood back father away then 10 inches, your hood will cover a greater area. you should be able to get more then 2 plants per hood (if you want too)

one reason the grower you saw had good results is because they moved the plants around as they were needed. again, something you could do with a horizontal hood.
larger plants don't always mean better yield. due the the light being unable to penetrate the plant foliage.

of course light may be bent, outside of the grow room, but i don't anyone has the ability to do it within the grow room, thus is why I made the comment, it was to help with the understanding on why its not commonly done.

the light won't bend, so the light will be going horizontally the whole way across the room, it will never 'fall down' and hit the plant, the majority of the light will hit the plant will be light reflected from the walls of the room.

like racefan said, its your room. do what cha like.

Be IRIE, if your planning on adding another light to your system, of course your results are going to be better. you would have to stick w/the same strain, and same bulb type and watts to make a fair reference.
 

Racefan

Well-Known Member
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

One thing everyone needs to remember is that what works for one doesn't always work for another. The reason I left the thread the way i did was that I could see that harry was looking to try the experiment and I had offered all my ideas and experiences already. That in no way should mean that harry shouldn't try things himself though. It's his grow. If you don't agree with what he is doing then don't do those things! It's that simple. Don't berate the person for thinking and trying new things though. Please allow people to be creative. We wouldn't have half the info, equipment and techniques we do now if it wasn't for people who try new things.
Now in reply to the post... I myself would spend $100.00 or so on a light track and run a air cooled 1000k hps bulb in a horizontal position in a reflector. (I make my own, see my gallery for a pic of one)
 
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Harry Red

Nug of the Month: Nov & Dec 2008, Mar 2009 - Plant of the Month: Oct 2008, Feb & May 2009
Re: Grow Light Position: Horizontal or Vertical ?

haha, leave it to stoners to over complicate simple things.
It occurs to me that enclosed air cooled hoods, with inline fans, ducting and light movers are much more complex than a vertically suspended bulb. Another downside is the additional energy and costs required for such a configuration.

I am still uncertain on what your goals are.
if you pull your hood back father away then 10 inches, your hood will cover a greater area. you should be able to get more then 2 plants per hood (if you want too)

one reason the grower you saw had good results is because they moved the plants around as they were needed. again, something you could do with a horizontal hood.
larger plants don't always mean better yield. due the the light being unable to penetrate the plant foliage.
As outlined in my 1st post to this thread, the goal would be to get as much light as possible from top to bottom when growing taller plants and using a single light.

Yes, if you raise the hooded light you get more coverage to the tops but much less to the lower areas of taller plants.

I've designed my own hanging mylar box that is open on both the top and bottom to promote air flow. it also has the advantage of easily movable walls, which allows me to increase or decrease the overall size of my flowering area very easily. It's just an example of alternative ways of thinking and different methods of achieving one's goals.

suspended-mylar-box2.jpg


light will be going horizontally the whole way across the room, it will never 'fall down' and hit the plant, the majority of the light will hit the plant will be light reflected from the walls of the room.
It seems to me that if the light were suspended in the middle, with plants surrounding it, they would receive much more direct light, and we know that direct light is better than reflected light. As you said, if working with several plants, you must turn the plants no matter whether you are using a hood or not. If I raise my hood to 24" and try to cover several plants, I get a lot (mostly) reflected light to the outlying plants, once from the hood and then again from the hanging mylar.

I would also suggest that when using a vertical bulb hanging low in the middle, you'll get direct light to all the surrounding plants in a 360deg radius and you'll get horizontal penetration of direct light all the way through the plant until it hits the myar side. Then, you'll get more reflected light back on the plants once again.

I agree with Boss and RaceFan in that there is no one best solution for everyone and it just depends on your setup and your goals.

It has been a lively discussion. :)

Harry
 
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