High Brix Hydroponics

[Aroxol]

Alright guys here’s the pH results as of this morning.

Flat water: Left overnight the cal carb sunk to the bottom of the flat water and became like glue against the bottom of the glass. I was able to mix it but had to use elbow grease. The pH registered at 6.5.

Carbonated water: The carbonation is long gone and the overall solubility is very high (no glue like residue). The pH registered at 6.2 which is pretty much where it stabilized yesterday before I added the pH down.

Thoughts: I’d like to see if the results in carbonated water change when I add a lot more calcium carbonate, but if there’s nothing too dramatic my thought is I’ll probably just end up mixing carb water and cal carbonate into my sprayer and apply via foliage feeding. If my plants don’t seem to mind, I may try to add in some bamboo salt as well, but one thing at a time.

SkyBound, if you’re curious about the bamboo salt, here’s a quick paraphrase of what I’m talking about. My plan is to either sub out the sea salt I’m using with this stuff, or maybe use this in conjunction with the calcium as a foliar feed. Will have some trial and error, but the sea salt did pretty well on my current grow so I’m liking the potential.

The process begins with organically harvested and sun-dried sea salt from the Korean Bay. The salt is packed into bamboo stalks that are 3 or more years old. Next, the bamboo is sealed with mineral-rich yellow clay from the surrounding region. Salt-filled bamboo stalks are then roasted at 1600°C, using pine wood from the local region. The above process is repeated up to nine times and can take three years to complete, depending on how the salt will be used. Each time the salt is roasted, impurities are burned off and nutrients from the bamboo and the clay are assimilated into the salt. Other minerals in the water are activated and pulled into organic complexes where they are held in a readily available state.

Bamboo salt is balanced with a full complement of minerals and trace minerals and is especially high in sulfur. Bamboo salt is also high in bio-available iodine.

 

[Skybound]

It seems that use of bamboo salt is a process similar to microbe teas, except no microbes. Are you in soil? I believe so otherwise how is it known what the elemental contents of the salts are to know that it's able to sustain a crop alone? So in a sense, I'm likening it to be comparable with molasses which also is usually stuffed with Ca, Mg, all trace elements and sometimes any or all the macros. This is why I also want to put molasses in my foliar spray, in effort to improve nutrient density in the buddage.

 

[Aroxol]

The plants (3 phenos in single pot) I’m using the sea salt on are currently in coco in an AutoPot setup. The main purpose of these plants was to see if blue lighting would/ could minimize stretch during early flowering, and after I determined what I wanted to determine I decided to mess around with weird stuff during the grow.

The whole grow has been comprised of sea salt, VegBloom, cal carb, and recharge in a room temperature res. I’ve fed ultra light base nutes, meaning ~1g/gal whereas most feed 4-6g/ gal of VegBloom. Throughout the veg phase into early flower the plant was in peak health. Stunningly healthy with zero deficiencies or toxicities that I could spot. In flower I’ve continued to keep it light, but because I’m only using a super light VegBloom base feed with no PK boost it’s yellowed a bit faster than what would normally happen, but still very, very dank. I’m going to harvest and regen this plant in 10 days, but this grow really has me somewhat convinced plants like a small dose of sea salt chalked full of minerals that are infused with water. In fact that supplemented with a very light regimen of base nutes seems like it could sustain a healthy plant for most of its life and save ppl some money. But this was in coco/ autopots, idk how that translates to other mediums like soil.

20190518_090159.jpg

• Aroxol
• May 18, 2019
• sensi eagle bill

Eagle Bill Day 60

Pheno Example 3 Top

20190518_090311.jpg

• Aroxol
• May 18, 2019
• sensi eagle bill

Eagle Bill Day 60

Pheno example 1

 

[FelipeBlu]

“This is why I also want to put molasses in my foliar spray, in effort to improve nutrient density in the buddage.”

That would certainly result in some sticky buds!

 

[Skybound]

excerpt from page 3, so far a good read;

The theory behind high-Brix crops is that plants with a 12-point or higher refractometer reading have a high nutrient content and are attacked by fewer pests. Accordingly, high-Brix readings can be produced by adding specific nutrients to the soil prior to planting, and by maintaining sap pH of 6.4 throughout the season through foliar application of Ca, Mg, K, or Na to raise pH, or phosphates or sulfates to lower pH (broken link).

https://certifiedorganic.bc.ca/programs/osdp/I-101 Brix Final Report.pdf

 

[Pennywise]

Yea that’s interesting

 

[FelipeBlu]

“Accordingly, high-Brix readings can be produced by adding specific nutrients to the soil prior to planting, and by maintaining sap pH of 6.4 throughout the season through foliar application of Ca, Mg, K, or Na to raise pH, or phosphates or sulfates to lower pH”

Does anyone know the method for measuring sap pH?

Oh wait..

https://www.nutri-tech.com.au/factsheets/plant-sap-ph-meter.pdf

 

[Skybound]

“Accordingly, high-Brix readings can be produced by adding specific nutrients to the soil prior to planting, and by maintaining sap pH of 6.4 throughout the season through foliar application of Ca, Mg, K, or Na to raise pH, or phosphates or sulfates to lower pH”

Does anyone know the method for measuring sap pH?

Oh wait..

https://www.nutri-tech.com.au/factsheets/plant-sap-ph-meter.pdf

It's the same process as measuring brix, except instead of squeezing leaf sap onto the lens of a refractometer, you drip a few drops onto a PH meter than can measure very small QTYs of liquid. I got that meter for $125 on amazon. It is part of a set of meters, the cheapest in fact, and now that I have it, I kinda wish I had my $125 back, lol.

I got another great read that depicts methods for getting more information from your refractometer. More or less though, through all my reading, my opinion is slowly shifting towards more emphasis on foliar sprays. Can't remember if it was this, or last link I shared, but I was given the impression that foliar sprays can be used to kind of smooth out the imperfections in the feed at the root zone. Right now, my fed targets are a bit "out there" and I've pretty much left my comfort zone a few weeks ago. I noticed a decline of growth vigor, and my harvest weight have decreased some. I am considering revisiting an old feed chart that I did well with, but elevate the calcium now that I'm using the gypsum, then just try to perfect a foliar spray. Still more to read and some to think about before concluding on anything.

The Beauty of Brix – Ten Things You Need To Know

 

[Skybound]

There's some good wisdom in this article about foliar spraying, and I will definitely be revisiting it when mixing foliar sprays. I've also been trying to reinvent the spray bottle to aim the spray head straight up, and at the end of a long pole to reach into the underside of the canopy when the lights go out. I hope to have good news with that as well.

What Is Foliar Spraying And How Can It Help Your Cannabis Plants? - RQS Blog

 

[Pennywise]

I'd say you're right, foliars will be where you find your answers.

 

[Weaselcracker]

pump sprayers

botanist friend

I’ll ask him about this

So he never got back to me about the pump sprayers.
But then tonight I happened to notice that my text had actually not sent
Sent it again and got this back.

Backpack Sprayers & Handheld Tank Sprayers (3) - Solo Incorporated

This company makes pretty good ones. The pump assembly needs fairly regular lubrication with vaseline to stop the rubber ring inside from wearing out, and sometimes solid bits of fertilizer get stuck in the valve and stop it from fully closing in which case it needs to be disassembled and cleaned, but it otherwise works pretty well and I've had it for at least ten years.
I have a two gallon model, the Solo 345, it makes a fine enough spray to not disturb newly planted seed or seedings.

 

[Skybound]

My sprayer is okay, but I didn't like the "mist" it produced to I got to playing around and came up with this long reach sprayer. It's super buggy, but for some reason there's no comparing to the atomization these spray bottles make across the board. I presume it's due to the water being compressed immediately behind the nozzle and because of that, max pressure is actually used to force the water out. Pump sprayers are susceptible the flexing in the tubing and plastic parts which greatly diminishes the force the water can apply to the tip. I'll likely explore battery powered sprayers next time, but I do need the ability to reach in and be able to spray the undersides of desired leaves.

Since we're on the topic, this is the product that is the base for my foliar spray. The suggested dose is 30ml (1 oz) per gallon. That yields 116-NO3, 39-NH4+, 138-P, 65-K. I'm running that at half strength and tossed in a half gram of gypsum to make the Ca level a tad less than K. After I finish the spray bottle, I think I'll waste the half strength and try a new idea I have. I can't exactly explain why, but I've somehow convinced myself that due to foliar spraying being between 90%-95% efficient, I'm now of the belief that if I apply a very light application of spray that has all macros and secondaries about even at roughly 40-50 ppm, I'll essentially have an adequate supply of the major components in the top of the plant and can use gravity as needed and the plant can exudate as she sees fit to collect whatever else is needed from the roots thus rendering the roots as the secondary source of nutes. This belief is very fuzzy, but all things I've read leave me with this impression.

Foliar feeding is 90-95% efficient and roots discharge exudates to attract the desired amounts of elements.

If this is true, I can revert to a feed schedule that is less challenging, such as the feed you're currently using that generally is on the lighter side of everything, yet still be giving them the opportunity to choose what they need with exudates. Also, is still true, my brix levels should increase as well as overall health. But whatever the end result turns out to be, I do need a good reliable method to atomize the juice to apply to the leaves.

Long Reach PVC Sprayer

Edit - FWIW, the ratio of the spray I'm considering is 2-2-1-2-1

 

[Skybound]

After reading THIS old post from 2012, I am going to change my feed yet again a 4th time. I just made up new feed for all rooms, so I'm waiting the week so not to be wasteful. I've had more than my fair share of wasting a shit load of RO, so I won't make a habit of it. Right around the time I upped Ca 20, I also upped the K in mid-late bloom by 20 to 200. It was when I made these change that I noticed a stall in vigor throughout my crop. I've since upped my P and Mg 5 or 10, so I must reconsider those, but I'm definitely bringing my K back down to 180 and I'll leave the Ca at 120. I'm half confident that P and Mg at 70 is a good max. I consider lower, but 65P is borderline def, and 2:1 Ca:Mg is also Mg def in my media at least.

After more web combing, I'm hard pressed to find others that use fist products in their sprays, and since my last spray was stinky, I'll be using a way lesser dose of fish guts. The spray I was intending to make had 1/3 strength, but I've also got some phosphoric acid in the mail so I'll be able to have an isolated source of P and I can use a lot less Fish stuff in the spray. I'll also likely use gypsum and epsom, maybe some K sulfate too and a touch of molasses for the trace elements.

 

[FelipeBlu]

Yeah, I can see how aerosolized fish guts might be objectionable

 

[Skybound]

Here's a great read about Phosphorus the provides yet more insight into the high brix soil kit and why the brix spray is high P. The amendments use rock phosphate, but I guess it takes a lot of effort for the soil microbes in conjunction with fungi to crack the P loose and get it back to the roots, so a little extra umph is needed from above. I am feeling better about the foliar spray I want to make. I'll likely aim to use less P, but still likely more than N and K as both of those seem to have little to no trouble being lapped up through the roots. In Doc's kit, I read he intentionally stays away from adding in any K, likely to focre the plants to take up more calcium and build branches the right way. If I'm right about that, I would argue that's it genius thinking on Doc's part. I do hope that if I add a light serving of all the macros and secondaries, the roots will take up less and only what they need. hopefully.

Phosphorus

 

[FelipeBlu]

Not once, in the entire article, is an example range of appropriate ppms for P provided. So what’s the takeaway? Plants need P in all phases - okay, but how about something like NPK ratios for different phases? Tissue samples?
Pretty fluffy..

 

[Skybound]

TBH, the only way I was ever able to extract actual ppm levels of each element is by finding growers on RIU that knew and specifically asking them element by element how they felt about what the safe ranges were. The conversation took me weeks to have and still it only got me to the underside of the range.

No article is going to give an elemental range of operation as that changes depending the plant, the media, the heat, the RH and ratio to everything else. There's just too many variable to know. My approach is to compare against all other known feed charts against them numbers I got from RIU. I also factor in Doc's kit composition to some degree. We read about each element and how each moves in the phloem. I learned how plants can just as easily make cells from potassium, easier in fact than using calcium. But calcium is the correct element for that, so he had to trick his plants by giving them readily available calcium and almost no potassium. Rev engineering his Brix spray, it looks like there's a lot of emphasis on P and N, then Ca to a lesser degree. So he makes contingency for a probable lack in P from the soft rock phosphate mixed in the 1st Run Amendment. Little things like that is what I'm picking up here and there and virtually every where. Am I wrong, quite possibly, but when reading a wide range of content, it all kind of helps each other out to help me form an understanding of what's going on. That said, I am comfortable making minor adjustments to my feed, applying them right away and observe how my whole crop responds. I've tried a lot of different things since staring this thread and I've actually witnessed a decline in my general growth vigor. I learned a lot of lessons none the less and the feed I'll be giving next week with be somewhat reverting (K especially) levels back to more familiar territory.

Articles like that may be like the 5th or 10th time reading it/them for me. I don't expect levels, ranges or ratios. I just want to be refreshed about the finer points so I can reconsider all of the other information I've collected.

FWIW, if you want a resource for elemental tissue weights, as well as other suggested elemental targets for the reservoir, PM me your email address. I have a 500 page PDF I'll send with all of this info therein. Just be forewarned that it, like all brands, aims to be acceptable from all crops. My focus is on but one crop, and to further drive the point, I'm aiming for higher brix which will be a great influence on my elemental targets. I intentionally will sacrifice a little of my yield if I can convert the sacrifice into better quality overall.

 

[Pennywise]

It can drive you crazy, I'm reading Teaming with Microbes right now.

 

[FelipeBlu]

Hey Sky,
I presume you have seen this:

Cannabis tissue nutrient analysis

This file (is there a way to attach files to a post?) is from the website of the International Fertilizer Industry Association. It is a summary of data from three older studies... an excerpt: Note: Plants were grown in "chernozem", which is a Russian word meaning "black soil" and is a...

www.420magazine.com

 

[Skybound]

I haven't, but I just now read it. There is a lot of content like that in my eBook, expressions of mg/kg in leaf tissue. If you read the last post on page one, that is the philosophy that I subscribe to. Not to literally translate what is in the leaves to what should be in the media. The way I comprehend it is that I have to offer more than what is taken up. Doc Bud for example offers like 18x more calcium than potassium, knowing that not all of the calcium will be uptaken. That's not directly comparable as that's soil, but the underlying reasoning directly relates.

I'm grateful that Weaselcracker began mapping his NPK. It's my hope that all of y'all hydro growers get into this and learn to use Hydro Buddy. We can learn a lot more if we communicate in elemental ppm. I am very close to ideal cannabis ranges, but I can only do one test at a time. I try to make up for that by making 2 or 3 minor changes, then try for a week or two. If more people can contribute, our collective knowledge will expand faster and together we can hammer out truly ideal feeding regimens for every grow media and strain. The more people trying more stuff, the more we'll learn.