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Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Pots!

Icemud

Member of the Month: July 2012, July 2014 - Nug of the Month: July 2012
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

continued....

Well I gave you the path to water, its your choice to drink it...

I supplied credible research which is accepted by the science community but its your choice whether you want to believe scientists in labs with controlled studies or not. Regardless if you want to accept knowledge or dismiss it is your choice, but the study I posted is the truth. Green is NOT useless.

I'm sure you have heard the word "PAR" which stands for photosynthetically active radiation. If green did not drive photosynthesis, then the PAR range of color (from UV to IR and everything in between) would not include green. The fact that it does proves that green drives photosynthesis. I would highly suggest googling the title of that last study I posted and read all 15 pages of it. (that is if you care to increase you knowledge or not). If you take it a step further and look at the McCree Curve, which shows that yes, plants absorb green.

The Ed Rosenthal information is not exactly correct, he says blue light does not effect flowering and that is not exactly correct. Both blue and red light are responsible for initiating flowering.

A cryptochrome is a non photosynthetic protein that is signaled by UV, blue and green light.

The Cryptochrome Blue Light Receptors
Xuhong Yu, Hongtao Liu, John Klejnot, and Chentao Lina,1
Cryptochromes are photolyase-like blue light receptors originally discovered in Arabidopsis but later found in other plants, microbes, and animals. Arabidopsis has two cryptochromes, CRY1 and CRY2, which mediate primarily blue light inhibition of hypocotyl elongation and photoperiodic control of floral initiation, respectively. In addition, cryptochromes also regulate over a dozen other light responses, including circadian rhythms, tropic growth, stomata opening, guard cell development, root development, bacterial and viral pathogen responses, abiotic stress responses, cell cycles, programmed cell death, apical dominance, fruit and ovule development, seed dormancy, and magnetoreception. Cryptochromes have two domains, the N-terminal PHR (Photolyase-Homologous Region) domain that bind the chromophore FAD (flavin adenine dinucleotide), and the CCE (CRY C-terminal Extension) domain that appears intrinsically unstructured but critical to the function and regulation of cryptochromes. Most cryptochromes accumulate in the nucleus, and they undergo blue light-dependent phosphorylation or ubiquitination. It is hypothesized that photons excite electrons of the flavin molecule, resulting in redox reaction or circular electron shuttle and conformational changes of the photoreceptors. The photoexcited cryptochrome are phosphorylated to adopt an open conformation, which interacts with signaling partner proteins to alter gene expression at both transcriptional and posttranslational levels and consequently the metabolic and developmental programs of plants.
Where Ed Rosenthol goes and says that "They are almost totally insensitive to green light and for this reason reflect it back to us while absorbing most other spectrums." which is wrong. If you read all 15 pages of the 1st post I made, (google the name of the abstract) you will see that like I originally said, green drives photosyntheis. In low light irradiance it is not as good as blue and red, but in intense light (high irradiance) then green light is more efficient.

Although the light absorption profiles calculated by Nishio (2000) are spurious ( Vogelmann and Evans 2002 ), his
argument has nevertheless been proven experimentally to be correct using our differential quantum yield method.
Namely, red light is more effective than green light in white light at low PPFDs, but as PPFD increases, light energy
absorbed by the uppermost chloroplasts tends to be dissipated as heat, while penetrating green light increases photo-
synthesis by exciting chloroplasts located deep in the mesophyll. Thus, for leaves, it could be adaptive to use chlo-
rophylls as photosynthetic pigments, because, by having chlorophyll with a ‘green window’ the leaves are able to
maintain high quantum yields for the whole leaf in both weak and strong light conditions.

Here are a few more studies show in fact, yes, Green light will effect plants, sometimes in positive ways, sometimes in negative. Dependant on the total spectral blend.


Plant Productivity in Response to LED Lighting
Gioia D. Massa1
Department of Horticulture and Landscape Architecture, Purdue University, 625 Agriculture Mall Drive, West Lafayette, IN 47907-2010
Hyeon-Hye Kim and Raymond M. Wheeler
Space Life Sciences Laboratory, Kennedy Space Center, FL 32899
Cary A. Mitchell
GREEN LIGHT

Many previous studies indicate that even with blue light added to red LEDs, plant growth is still better under white light. Certainly to humans, plants grown under red plus blue light appear purplish gray, and disease and disorder become difficult to diagnose (Fig. 1). One possible solution is using a small amount of green light. To test this hypothesis, Kim et al. (2004a) grew lettuce plants under red and blue LEDs with and without 5% (6 μmol·m−2·s−1) green from LEDs with both treatments at the same total PPF (136 μmol·m−2·s−1). They observed no impact on lettuce growth with all measurable characteristics such as photosynthesis rate, shoot weight, leaf area, and leaf number being the same with and without green. They followed this work with another lettuce study to determine the effects of higher levels of green light under a total PPF of 150 μmol·m−2·s−1 and an 18-h photoperiod (Kim et al., 2004b). They used red and blue LEDs with and without green fluorescence (GF) (24% green for RGB or 0% green for RB), GF alone (86% green), and CWF (51% green) and demonstrated that lettuce plants grown with RGB had higher fresh and dry weights and greater leaf area than those grown with CWF or RB alone. Plants grown under GF had the least biomass of all treatments. Further work with the same system (Kim et al., 2004c) examined g S. Although lettuce grown under CWF showed greater maximal g S than under RB, RGB, or GF, dry mass accumulation was highest in the RGB treatment, indicating that g S did not limit carbon assimilation under the growth conditions provided. Additionally, the authors demonstrated that g S could be changed reversibly in response to narrow waveband light, even for plants grown under CWF (Kim et al., 2004c). Kim et al. (2006) summarized the experiments with green supplementation of red and blue LED light and concluded that light sources consisting of more than 50% green cause reductions in plant growth, whereas combinations including up to 24% green enhance growth for some species.

Figure 1.3 Light absorption by pigments in solution and by leaves. Absorbance (A) refers to attenuation of light transmitted through a leaf or a solution of leaf pigments, as measured in a spectrophotometer, and is derived from the expression A = log I0/I where I0 is incident light, and I is transmitted light. The solid curve (scale on right ordinate) shows absorbance of a solution of pigment—protein complexes equivalent to that of a leaf with 0.5 mmol Chl m-2. The dotted curve shows absorptance (scale on left ordinate), and represents the fraction of light entering the solution that is absorbed. Virtually all light between 400 and 500 nm and around 675 nm is absorbed, compared with only 40% of light around 550 nm (green). The dashed curve with squares represents leaf absorptance, which does not reach 1 because the leaf surface reflects part of the incident light. Of light around 550 nm, 75% is absorbed because leaves scatter light effectively which increases the pathlength and thereby increases probability of absorption above that observed for the same pigment concentration in solution. (Based on McCree 1972; Evans and Anderson 1987)
Scattering occurs by reflection and refraction of light at cell walls due to the different refractive indices of air and water. Irregular-shaped cells in spongy tissues enhance scattering, increasing the path length of light travelling through a leaf and thus increasing the probability of absorption. Path lengthening is particularly important for those wavelengths more weakly absorbed and results in at least 80% absorption, even at 550 nm (Figure 1.3). Consequently, leaves typically absorb about 85% of incident light between 400 and 700 nm; only about 10% is reflected and the remaining 5% is transmitted. These percentages do of course vary according to genotype x environment factors, and especially adaptation to aridity and light climate.
Recent evidence shows that green light also has discrete effects on plant biology, and the mechanisms that sense this light quality are now being elucidated. Green light has been shown to affect plant processes via cryptochrome-dependent and cryptochrome-independent means. Generally, the effects of green light oppose those directed by red and blue wavebands. This review examines the literature where green light has been implicated in physiological or developmental outcomes, many not easily attributable to known sensory systems. Here roles of green light in the regulation of vegetative development, photoperiodic flowering, stomatal opening, stem growth modulation, chloroplast gene expression and plant stature are discussed, drawing from data gathered over the last 50 years of plant photobiological research. Together these reports support a conclusion that green light sensory systems adjust development and growth in orchestration with red and blue sensors.
If you think Green "safelights" don't effect plants...think again...
In Arabidopsis, green light stimulates germination effectively through phyA and phyB (Shinomura et al., 1996). Green light establishes an active phy pool and even the most miniscule ‘safelight’ green light treatments activate robust plant responses (Mandoli and Briggs, 1981; Steinitz et al., 1985; Dhingra et al., 2006).
Dark-grown seedlings were given a pulse of blue light followed by a pulse of green. A characteristic phot response was observed, as seedlings exhibited a normal first-phase of growth inhibition as described (Folta and Spalding, 2001; Folta et al., 2003a). However, within minutes, and only after receiving a green light pulse, seedling growth would accelerate to 150% of the dark rate. The effect of green was unlike any previously described, as plants would elongate at a rate that exceeded their dark (and presumably most rapid) rate. This unusual green-induced increase in stem elongation rate was later examined in great detail. Single, etiolated seedlings were tested for the elongation response to a brief green light pulse. Within minutes of a dim-green-safelight-quality light pulse the dark-grown seedling would elongate faster than it would elongate in complete darkness
So to conclude... if ALL of these scientific research papers are showing plants respond to green light, how is green light useless?

Green light is not useless....
Yes, in some studies it shows counteractive effects vs red/blue light, but in other studies it shows increased photosynthesis, dry weight, effects on flowering time, elongation and growth traits......The information about green light is there, but it only does good if you stay open minded and accept scientific research, or decide to just rely on "regurgitated information".
 

Graytail

Plant of the Year: 2014 - Plant of the Month: Dec 2014 - Nug of the Month: Feb 2015, Mar & Aug 2016, Dec 2017, Aug 2018, Jan 2019 - Nug of the Year: 2017 - Photo of the Month: June 2018
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

... I gotta try out that old-style 400W CMH in the center where the XML is now ...

Red/Blue is readily absorbed on first contact, doesn't penetrate well, and is then wasted as heat, whereas Green penetrates deeply and is most useful at high umol levels. :3: So, first cover with red/blue, then add white. Very interesting. :30:
 

SweetSue

Well Known Member
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

I have to say, I love being surrounded by brilliance. It makes it so much easier to have interpreters on board. :laugh2:
 

Icemud

Member of the Month: July 2012, July 2014 - Nug of the Month: July 2012
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

... I gotta try out that old-style 400W CMH in the center where the XML is now ...

Red/Blue is readily absorbed on first contact, doesn't penetrate well, and is then wasted as heat, whereas Green penetrates deeply and is most useful at high umol levels. :3: So, first cover with red/blue, then add white. Very interesting. :30:

I have been wanting to try the same thing... CMH + LED... Personally I think CMH has the nearest to perfect spectrum for growing other than maybe a plasma :) Unfortunately plasma just aren't efficient or I would already have one :) lol I was thinking LED for direct vertical lighting and maybe the CMH for a more canopy level/side illumination since HID spreads so well. Who knows, I may be doing it in the near future after I get done with my tangie pheno hunt :) I swear I wish I had a warehouse with like 20 4x4 tents, so I can just run studies on cannabis lighting. I would have a tent for each color of the rainbow and all the fancy gadgets that measure everything imaginable..LOL Now I just need to hit that lottery! haha


Very interesting stuff indeed. The way I look at it its almost like you have a 3 tier wine glass, the top row only collects red liquid, the middle row blue, and the last row green. Now if you were to pour sunlight (white liquid) into the top, the red would fill up first, then blue, then green. This is how I sort of imagine how light is used in the plants... It seems that we almost want about 25% green by the studies I was showing, however, for each plant species there are differences.

I honestly can't wait until cannabis is studied more, in particular light on cannabis. Since it seems each plant and species has slightly different reactions, peaks, absorption points..etc... It would be neat to know cannabis specific information and how we can use light more efficiently. Could you imagine when we get to the point when we can say....."hmm, I want this crop to have more pine flavor, or more antioxidants, or I want these plants to grow tall and lanky with hardly any leaves.... " and we could actually program our lights to cause these responses... I think that is the future that we will see soon :)

I'm heavily considering going back to school. I have some college, originally set out to be a M.E. but a few setbacks and being too young to care at the time set me off path. Since then I've pretty much been stuck in the rut of endless heartless sales jobs which just sucks, and being only 35 I know now is a great time to really change gears and get that career going in the area of interest. With that being said I know I will be taking courses on electronics so I can design PCB boards and circuits, and also really want to aim in the direction of plant lighting because I know its where my heart is at. So maybe in the future some of those abstracts and research papers that get published will have my name on them...LOL...who knows. :)
 

Graytail

Plant of the Year: 2014 - Plant of the Month: Dec 2014 - Nug of the Month: Feb 2015, Mar & Aug 2016, Dec 2017, Aug 2018, Jan 2019 - Nug of the Year: 2017 - Photo of the Month: June 2018
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

The effect of green-only on seedlings was fascinating, huh?! A reaction within minutes.

One wonders what secrets there are to be discovered.

Been there, didn't do that with the college and age, complete with skillset and job - sales this and sales that. :17: At least do some tech school or something. I was fairly good at sales, but all that gets you is another sales job. I finally escaped by starting my own retail store. :slide:
 

SweetSue

Well Known Member
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

The passion is certainly there and the intelligence can't be questioned. You just keep thinking like that Icemud.
 

Icemud

Member of the Month: July 2012, July 2014 - Nug of the Month: July 2012
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

The passion is certainly there and the intelligence can't be questioned. You just keep thinking like that Icemud.

Thank you SweetSue!!! You definitely have a very fitting username as you are very sweet! Thank you so much :)
 

Icemud

Member of the Month: July 2012, July 2014 - Nug of the Month: July 2012
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

The effect of green-only on seedlings was fascinating, huh?! A reaction within minutes.

One wonders what secrets there are to be discovered.

Been there, didn't do that with the college and age, complete with skillset and job - sales this and sales that. :17: At least do some tech school or something. I was fairly good at sales, but all that gets you is another sales job. I finally escaped by starting my own retail store. :slide:

Yea, very surprising that just a few seconds of light can change the plants reactions....

another little green light study I read was seeds treated with green laser light had a higher percentage of germination than those in a control group :)

So many interesting light reactions :)

I am considering career training programs as I don't need all the basic college courses, just things that apply to my future interests. I was recommended to take HVAC courses as they are very heavy in electronics and circuits which to me seems like a win, then I come out with a certification as well as electronics knowledge... Everyone I have met that does HVAC doesn't seem to be struggling so seems like a good path to look into further. Maybe it will shine more light on our heat conversation too :) a lot of the research I did in this area seemed to stem from HVAC sites. :)

I did find a local LED company that is hiring too so I applied today... figure anything that gets me closer to learning more about my passion is always a good move :) I believe its a LED company for medical devices but none the less, its closer to the industry I want to work in : )
 

SweetSue

Well Known Member
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

I'm so proud that you took that initiative. It's obvious to us where your passion lies. You don't come across someone driven by passion all that often Icemud, so you have to encourage it.

How interesting that you could increase germination rates with the green laser light. Wow! There are exciting days ahead, aren't there? You get out there and lead the charge. :high-five:

I have to laugh, you guys keep telling me how appropriate my user name is. When I signed up I almost used the one I use for all my other sites, but for some reason this one insisted on being the choice. Not a typical choice for me at all. Turned out to be very appropriate.

You guys make it easy to be SweetSue. :4: :love:
 

Icemud

Member of the Month: July 2012, July 2014 - Nug of the Month: July 2012
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

So I was seeking direction in my career path and so I took a career interest and personality survey.... Pretty much says I need to back into engineering...LOL well at least I know what jobs my personality fits...now time to figure out which direction.. (the higher the number, the stronger my interest) I posted it here because by now you probably have figured out my personality... analytical, data driven, hands on, detailed... and pretty much the survey says it...very interesting.

I like how in the strongest category it says " They often deal with plants, animals, and real-world materials like wood, tools, and machinery" I think that survey was dead on :)

16 Artistic
Artistic occupations frequently involve working with forms, designs and patterns. They often require self-expression and the work can be done without following a clear set of rules.

8 Conventional
Conventional occupations frequently involve following set procedures and routines. These occupations can include working with data and details more than with ideas. Usually there is a clear line of authority to follow.

23 Enterprising
Enterprising occupations frequently involve starting up and carrying out projects. These occupations can involve leading people and making many decisions. Sometimes they require risk taking and often deal with business.

24 Investigative
Investigative occupations frequently involve working with ideas, and require an extensive amount of thinking. These occupations can involve searching for facts and figuring out problems mentally.

28 Realistic
Realistic occupations frequently involve work activities that include practical, hands-on problems and solutions. They often deal with plants, animals, and real-world materials like wood, tools, and machinery. Many of the occupations require working outside, and do not involve a lot of paperwork or working closely with others.

5 Social
Social occupations frequently involve working with, communicating with, and teaching people. These occupations often involve helping or providing service to others.
 

Graytail

Plant of the Year: 2014 - Plant of the Month: Dec 2014 - Nug of the Month: Feb 2015, Mar & Aug 2016, Dec 2017, Aug 2018, Jan 2019 - Nug of the Year: 2017 - Photo of the Month: June 2018
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

LOL, a 5 in Social and you're working in sales ... :laugh2:
 

Icemud

Member of the Month: July 2012, July 2014 - Nug of the Month: July 2012
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

LOL, a 5 in Social and you're working in sales ... :laugh2:

LOL, Right!!

I actually thought I would have scored higher in that category because I like teaching people and actually am quite a people person (when I want to be) LOL. I do find though I am more of that scientist type that would rather lock himself in a garage with tools, junk and information and create something :) LOL.
 

Icemud

Member of the Month: July 2012, July 2014 - Nug of the Month: July 2012
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

OK.... Well that time has come....


The plants that were hanging to dry were about 85% dry so I decided to trim them up and jar them for curing. The stems did not snap but were pretty brittle before bending and all the buds have lost a majority of the water weight and were dry and crunchy on the outsides, but I could tell had just a little moisture inside which needed to be burped out for curing.

I personally like to leave a little moisture in the jars and burp it out, rather than overdry and have no way to correct it and this usually leaves me with a very fragarant smoke and smooth as well.

So each plant took about 2 hours to trim, but I wasn't speed trimming for cash either, watching movies along the way, smoking and getting up for breaks to keep circulation going in my legs...LOL. (not a fan of trimming at all)

So after trimming all the buds they were placed into jars and will be burped for the next week or so until completely dry and then sealed for 2 weeks or more (hopefully i can keep my grimy hands out :)

So I did take the weight of each plant, which I would say is pretty close to final weight since there is hardly any water weight left..but it may change by a few grams in the next week.

dun dun dun.....

Black Cherry Soda: 85g
Ogiesel: 144g

Total weight 229g
Gram per watt .31g/w

Well overall I have to say despite me having a rough time with this grow, and having to cull my harlequin, and with my black cherry soda stopping growing a few weeks ago, I am still pretty impressed with this yield overall. Definitely not near my best g/w and not near my best yeild for this tent, but with all the issues its ok because i still ended up with a decent amount.

Now the good news... Originally I was trying to see if it was better for me to run 6 plants or 3 in larger pots and which would yield more... Since my last run of Ogiesel in 5 gallon pots ended up at 70g, and this one in smart pot #10's at 144g.. I would say its about a tie and if my plant health would have been better overall I think it would have even yielded better :)

So the grow did gather some decent data :)

Well I will update with more Bud Pron in a few days after the curing has started and I have more motivation...LOL I've been not only trimming for the past 2 nights but then all day today was cleaning my tent, transplanting my tangies and a few other plants and moving them around for the next grow.... exhausted and haven't even eaten yet today...

I want to thank each and every one of you for following along with my grow, helping with information, engaging in discussions and bringing me good vibes and advice!!! Please feel free to join along in my next grow journal :) I will post the link in a little while.

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OldMedMan

Jimmy Max Parker 11/2/41 - 02/19/17, Member of the Month: Dec 2009, Nov 2010, June 2011, May 2012, May 2013
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

Long time no see Icemud....still turning out beauties I see. :thumb:
 

Icemud

Member of the Month: July 2012, July 2014 - Nug of the Month: July 2012
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

Hey OldMedMan!!!!! Good to hear from you!! It has been a long time :) Well you came just in time to see the fruits of my labor :) I invite you to join my new journal which I should be getting up in the next 20 minutes :) Great to hear from you and glad you stopped by!
 

Icemud

Member of the Month: July 2012, July 2014 - Nug of the Month: July 2012
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

Here are some photos of my other tents with my girls in veg and my mother plants :)

I added one of my old I-gro 180w lights to the all blue tent, I realized that with the all blue spectrum, and lack of red is causing the plants to stretch quite a bit, so I added the Igro to add some red, only running the COB channel.
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I tranplanted 2 of the larger plants in my 3rd tent, but ran out of 5 gallon pots so have to get 2 more and then will transplant the others. I also moved the 2 GDP seedlings to 3 gallon pots as the both are now showing new growth and some roots. One of the 3 died.

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Icemud

Member of the Month: July 2012, July 2014 - Nug of the Month: July 2012
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

Please join me in my new grow journal featuring my mystery tangie plants in search for the best pheno....


420 Magazine ®
 

CronicHempHog

Member of the Month: Feb 2014 - Plant of the Month: June 2015
Re: Icemud's Advanced LED XTE Grow - Harlequin - Ogiesel - Black Cherry Cola - Big Po

im there :thumb:
 

Icemud

Member of the Month: July 2012, July 2014 - Nug of the Month: July 2012
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