Increasing yield with defoliation indoors: What's it mean? How to do it?

[donpaul.p]

no worries spring.

with the autos i find that when they start to flower they pretty much dont get any taller, its a complete joke, i would not removes leaves from an auto, it takes a couple of days to recover but as autos dont seem to grow very quick i think this would stunt them way to much, if an auto starts to flower at week 2 then you dont have much veg time at all, so removing leaves is something i wont be doing with an auto unless i can breed one that has the rapid growth of a none auto

 

[donpaul.p]

i also planted today a purple widow so i should get some nice purple buds, ill have to train this plant as its best grown outdoors due to its huge growth, so this might be ideal for my dwc scrog when i set it up, all depends how it grows, i also got a nice surprise in my order, i got a auto purple, this i had problems with last time and it did not grow, i contacted herbie and said it was not souvenir quality, then next thing i know he replaced it for me, how about that for service, also a huge thank you to everyone who mentioned my name when ordering from herbie, it shows him we are good customers and great members of this site, people you cant go wrong with herbies head shop, herbie is a top bloke, just like corey at bpn, as you can see i push companies that i have great service from and bpn and herbies are 2 of the best i have come across

 

[BigIrishDoode]

hey bass i just defol 'd and bent over coup;e days ago, you should check out my latest pics

 

[donpaul.p]

it seems everyone is getting on the defo method, it was not that long ago when i had a huge debate in my journal, i had people arguing over this exact subject, only a couple said its a benefit to remove leaves but the majority argued it will stunt growth, so i never tried it, but now i have a few plants under my belt and can risk losing a plant i tried it and it works great, i wont be doing it to all my plants till i harvest and compare weights,

ive been thinking about this method on autos, i think it would be worth doing but only for the last 2 weeks of flower, it would stunt growth to much before then, unless the auto had a longer veg period, everyone i have grown starts flower at 2 weeks, 3 at the very most, but usually at the 2 week mark

 

[Bassman59]

hey bass i just defol 'd and bent over coup;e days ago, you should check out my latest pics

Been there, done that, repped it!

 

[spring2012]

Yeah DP. The Siberian is in flower but she just stopped any signs of movement when I defoiled. She is fine now and the lower sites are growing like crazy. That said I will still take it real cautious on Autos in my future grows.

 

[Alaskan1]

just a thought or two........
You say you bend over tops so that the canopy stays even. Does this not cover up lower buds below? In my experience when i bend over a top cola to keep the canopy even something below gets covered in the process.

When the cola forms and there are small leaves that protrude, enough to show a stem to you cut those as well or only if the branch of the leaf is over 1 inch?

I will be using tomato cages once the plants get large enough for them to be useful. My thought was to let some grow through the middle but the most growing outside the cage and I can tie those to the outside of the cage so they don't droop over the sides.
Any suggestions?

 

[Bassman59]

AK1,
We're bending tops that are 6" above the rest when they havent been bent laterally hard already to spread out the canopy a lot already. I began shaping my main branches in veg by making 1st lateral bends. But they turn straight upwards still right? So from this, the next offshoot often becomes the tallest top branch very rapidly. And if it gets too high (my 6" limit), I'll bend that too. But later yet, that main branch is likely to get high and be shading some more of the inner edge. So out she goes again! Last grow I had a few branches that had 7 knuckles on them from bends. All in an effort to spread even the canopy. I don't bend them inwards if I can help it.

I kinda like but am not real sure on the tomato cages. I mean a pvc frame in my tent, un-glued is easy to adjust height with and then I really only need 8-10 total strands of string. I wonder if the tomato cages would be too restrictive.

I really dont pull leaves directly from buds, except those with stems.

 

[Alaskan1]

Well if you think about it Bass, i will be doing the same thing........in a way. When the top branches get too much taller then the others i just guide it out to the outside of the tomato cage and this way the middle gets light again. Also, If I had to I could put string between all the tomato cages.
I had a plant outside and put a tomato cage around it. I left the thing alone and just let it grow on it's own. the plant engulfed the tomato cage and really looked beautiful.

 

[Vick074]

Well if you think about it Bass, i will be doing the same thing........in a way. When the top branches get too much taller then the others i just guide it out to the outside of the tomato cage and this way the middle gets light again. Also, If I had to I could put string between all the tomato cages.

I'm just about to do exactly that with my grow. Just bend at the top of the cage and lay it down on the edge, then tie it.
I tried it with one bud last night, but was scared (too high?) to do it to all of them, but after reading some more of Bassman's posts, and this one. I think I'm going to get the balls to do it to all of them tonight. After all it can't hurt my yield at all right? Just increase it..

 

[Bassman59]

Well if you think about it Bass, i will be doing the same thing........in a way. When the top branches get too much taller then the others i just guide it out to the outside of the tomato cage and this way the middle gets light again. Also, If I had to I could put string between all the tomato cages.
I had a plant outside and put a tomato cage around it. I left the thing alone and just let it grow on it's own. the plant engulfed the tomato cage and really looked beautiful.

I'm not saying it wouldn't work. But I think it makes things more complicated than it needs to be. Let's say the cage is 18" diameter. You stick a branch outside, your plant grows to 28" across, and you have 5" outside the cage. May be fine, but what if it's a slim branch and a heavy bud? Now you're adding string to support it from breaking outside the cage. What if it's a little longer? And how about reaching into each cage to remove leaves in the plant?

The idea of the cage sounds good, but it sounds like it could be a pain in the ass too. I'm just not sure.

 

[Alaskan1]

I'm not saying it wouldn't work. But I think it makes things more complicated than it needs to be. Let's say the cage is 18" diameter. You stick a branch outside, your plant grows to 28" across, and you have 5" outside the cage. May be fine, but what if it's a slim branch and a heavy bud? Now you're adding string to support it from breaking outside the cage. What if it's a little longer? And how about reaching into each cage to remove leaves in the plant?

The idea of the cage sounds good, but it sounds like it could be a pain in the ass too. I'm just not sure.

Well, we won't know for sure till it's tried

 

[V1nce]

Good information Bass. So many people have been against defoliating plants, saying it will harm or slow the entire plant during any growth cycle. I began to experiment with this about 6 years ago. I have been practicing aggressive pruning on every grow now for about 4 years with excellent results! With my current I am using Gas Lantern Routine lighting with aggressive pruning on my perpetual grow and things are looking even better now! The plants spring to life after every pruning, and I am having EXCESSIVE GROWTH. Plus you cannot ever complain about a savings on your electricity bill and equipment usage!! Keep up the good work my friend.

+rep

 

[Bassman59]

Good information Bass. So many people have been against defoliating plants, saying it will harm or slow the entire plant during any growth cycle. I began to experiment with this about 6 years ago. I have been practicing aggressive pruning on every grow now for about 4 years with excellent results! With my current I am using Gas Lantern Routine lighting with aggressive pruning on my perpetual grow and things are looking even better now! The plants spring to life after every pruning, and I am having EXCESSIVE GROWTH. Plus you cannot ever complain about a savings on your electricity bill and equipment usage!! Keep up the good work my friend.

+rep

Thanks V1nce! And Welcome to 420mag!

Do you have any pictures to share with us? Also as you have more experience with doing it than I, any suggestions to make or add?

 

[donpaul.p]

i have been trying something to get more light to the main cola, if the light is above the plant then anything below the very top of the cola is in the shade, so i have been wedging something under the edge of each pot, this gets the whole cola in the light, then all i do is turn the put every day to make sure the light is even, so far it seems to be working well

 

[Alaskan1]

Curious Bass, i have a few more questions for ya and your thoughts.

Is it ok to trim the leaves off as they pop out? So a few each day instead of doing a big defol all at once? I saw your comment about not doing a defol at all once they are flipped until day 21? Seems kinda counter productive at getting all the light to the bottom when it seems like when buds are forming this is when they would need the light the most.
I have done a defol and UBT just days before the flip and i saw no ill effect at all. Just my observation mind you.

 

[Xlr8]

I'm just about to do exactly that with my grow. Just bend at the top of the cage and lay it down on the edge, then tie it.
I tried it with one bud last night, but was scared (too high?) to do it to all of them, but after reading some more of Bassman's posts, and this one. I think I'm going to get the balls to do it to all of them tonight. After all it can't hurt my yield at all right? Just increase it..

Short answer, yes i believe you can increase yield, personally. I think I shared this with you earlier too, but I did some of this "bending in bloom" in my current grow. After a week or so the ones I bent (about 25 days into bloom) have:

• Colas as large or larger than the ones unbent
• Secondary buds below the main cola are larger than on non bent branches
• Shorter branches shot up to become more even with the rest of the canopy
• Straightened themselves back up - vertical again, but the other stragglers caught up so things are more even. A couple may need to be bent, again
• Healed at the bend into a thick knuckle, very sturdy and solid/strong/healthy looking

Your mileage may vary, but that's a summary of what I've seen so far. It's consistent with what others i trust (Bassman included) have told me to expect. This is the first time I've bent branches like this, on purpose, in the bloom phase. Ive typically only super-cropped in veg and limited my tactics to LST in bloom. Seems like win, win, win at this point though!

Once again Bassman, great thread!! As I'm doing heavier defoliating in my grows now and have started some some bending in bloom in current grow... hope you don't mind me commenting in this thread once in a while? Thanks for helping dispell some myths as it relates to legitimate ways to improve indoor yields.

 

[Bassman59]

@Xlr8, You're always welcome in any thread I'm in to post! More importantly, it reinforces the ideas when others see the results of your experience and comments on the techniques.

@AK1, A couple things there AK1. We really don't mind leaves developing. When new and small they stop little if any light. Not sure if this is what you mean on the 1st question, but if a new leaf is coming out of a bud, we may not know it to be a fan or sugar leaf early on. It doesn't have a stem? It remains. As for new fans with stems, we don't remove them because they are generally going to be at the spot where a new node begins and until that new node develops a set of leaves then yes, that fan is supplying important resources to the new node and shouldn't be removed just yet.

As far as stripping before flipping, we want all energy to be directed to the transition, stretch, and buds forming in those 1st 21 days. As such, we want fully developed plants going into 12/12 rather than diverting it's energy into more new leaf growth. Once that stretch is over, the buds are already moving along quite a bit in development and will do fine while the plant will be sending all it's horny sexuality to presenting those lovely flowers we want. Also, keep in mind, where I mentioned earlier defoliating in stretch to shut down stretch and control height. This has been my experience. I hit em hard, stretch practically stopped. When I entered 12/12 very shortly after a defoliation, stretch was very slow.

So, from what I can see, and from what I learned from others, hit em 10 days or so before stretch, let em stretch, then hit em again.

After stretch is over, and that 21 day strip is done, defoliators tend to use one of two techniques. Constant removal daily of fan leaves with stems from developed nodes, or waiting until day 45 and stripping them again. I do the daily routine. Mostly because I just can't keep my hands off them at that point when I see leaf blocking light. But again, I'm only taking fans with a good strong stem and the corresponding node is developed. You'll get the feel for "good strong stem".

 

[s1ingblade]

It seams as if most growers that speak of defoliation mention that they don't keep dedicated mother plants. If they do keep em do they defoliate the moms? The ones that don't when do they take there cuttings? I am assuming sometime after the stretch in veg.?
Thanks

 

[Bassman59]

I really don't know for sure on that Azmeds. The only reason I haven't kept a mom is because it would take me one plant further into illegal. I really should be taking clones, and haven't been recently as I've been changing strains.