Is Fox Farm Inconsistent?

[SteveI]

I've been having problems with a plant that I posted on here before. Pics posted again below. I am using a new bag of Fox Farm Ocean Forest. I have used FFOC before successfully. For the first time I am also using FF nutes. I did not nute for the the first 4-5 weeks but started getting the problem I show in these pics. I started nuting and it got worse. I only nuted for two feedings but used close to their full strength. I immediately flushed after noticing the problem get worse (around week 6) and checked my run-off. PPM was off the charts and pH was low 5's.

Since then I have been much more conservative, using the nutes at half strength (approx 1400PPM TDS) and then only every other or every 3rd watering. I have since fed just 3 times and not even a soaking. I pH to 6.5-6.6 range.

I decided to do a another runoff test tonight. Guess what? PPM is again off the charts. The EC showed 3999 while the TDS blinked 2000 (meaning well over it). The pH was 5.3! It is a micro grow and in a 2 gal smart pot (approx 1.5 gal since I don't fill all the way) so I could put it under the faucet and flush. I then checked pH of runoff every couple gallons or so of flush. It must have taken 10 gallons for me to get the pH of the run-off to 6.5. If my first run-off was 5.3 after pouring in 6.6 tap water, that means the soil must have been even lower than that, perhaps in the high 4's.

My questions are:
(1) Is FF inconsistent and possibly kill plants sometimes with low pH? FF claims this soil is "pH balanced", what exactly does that mean? It obviously cannot be a one-size fits all. Should I transplant to something else?

(2) If I continue with FF, what is the proper way to manage this? Should I compensate with extra high pH feed, like 7+? Or should I put some lime or something else in with the soil?

(3) How accurate is a PPM measurement from runoff? I don't want to freak out if, since soil comes out with the runoff, that is the reason the PPM is high (although after flushing it I was getting a reading of 360 PPM).

(4) If I call FF, what plant has similar characteristics to cannabis that I can lie and say I am trying to grow?

Thanks for any help!!!


Here's what I am trying to fix. New growth looks good and it is starting to smell nice and sweet so I think I am turning the corner except for the runoff test tonight.

 

[Marzbadrock]

re: Is Fox Farm Inconsistent?

Do not pH your water, food nothing!!!!trust me.
Flush your pots completely out wit un ph'd water.
Give a light feeding..500 ppm. No pH!
Once your pots start to dry the pH will rise.
When you water next you should get a soil pH of 6.0
When it dries completely it will be soil pH of 7.0

On another note your roots are fucked already so dont expect nothing massive. Use this technique next go around, and flush between veg, and flower and I promise branches will be breaking. And dont feed at all the first month, ffof has plenty of good stuff to keep your plants happy

 

[Marzbadrock]

re: Is Fox Farm Inconsistent?

Add two tablespoons powdered dolomite, two tablespoon dolomite prills, per gallon of soil. This not only will help maintain good pH but you shouldn't need cal mag unless you veg more than a month.

 

[SmokerJoe]

re: Is Fox Farm Inconsistent?

Marz is this based on experience? What is a dolomite prill? By no means criticizing I just happened to stumble on the thread. Ive had a few issues with ff but never anything like those leaves. I do use happy frog,perlite,humboldt nutrients in combination with ocean forest though so that could be why.

 

[SteveI]

re: Is Fox Farm Inconsistent?

Give a light feeding..500 ppm. No pH!

I have to question this though. I am using Fox Farm nutes and I notice they are STRONGLY acidic. Half strength, or about 1000-1100PPM and, the pH is in the 4's and it takes many times more pH up than I have ever used to bring it up (like 10 full droppers). At 500ppm, I would estimate it still very acidic. Is it ok to pour low pH5 in there?

In prior grows I have been using the 3 part GH Flora, in fact have plenty of that left maybe I should go back to 500 PPM application of that instead. The pH was easier to control. I just have had these big bottles of it a while and thought it might be getting old.

 

[Marzbadrock]

re: Is Fox Farm Inconsistent?

Yes I am experienced, 5 years. The first 2 years all my plants showed signs of deficiency no matter what I did, until I quit the pH. The past 3 years the only deficiency I see is nitro once in awhile because they eat so much. There are 5 of us growers in my circle, 4 of us use of soil, we all quit pH and boom blew it up.

 

[Marzbadrock]

re: Is Fox Farm Inconsistent?

Dolomite prills are just little pellets, I use in conjucytion with powdered dolomite. Once the powdered dolomite is used up the prills start to kick in.
As for foxfarm nutes, I know its a leap but just try on one plant and see what happens, there are buffers in the soil that will maintain your pH in the optimum range whether or not your feeding hi pH or low pH, it will always buffer out to 6.0 to 7.0 I would suggest on trying this w

 

[Marzbadrock]

re: Is Fox Farm Inconsistent?

Try with new dirt to see what really happens, as your roots will develop and grow healthier plant. I found just one watering with pH water messes the pH balance of the soil up, it drops to 4.8

 

[Calyx Hunter]

I love Fox Farms. I'm using their soil and nutrients and have had zero problems. I understand the nature of capitalism and every company in existence wants to make money. I believe they recommend to use way too much nutes. I bet if anyone followed the Fox Farms Nutrient schedule they'd probably be buying twice as much as they needed. Throughout my grow I've slowly built up to half strength and will probably maintain at half seeing as how my girls are looking vibrant. I'll make changes if I see negative changes in my plants growth.

Can you post a picutre showing the pot and soil and some of the lower growth?

 

[SteveI]

Try with new dirt to see what really happens, as your roots will develop and grow healthier plant. I found just one watering with pH water messes the pH balance of the soil up, it drops to 4.8

So you are saying you think I should transplant into some new dirt?

I mentioned before that I am doing a micro PC style grow into an approx 1 cu foot of space (believe it or not I have gotten some awesome yields out of this). But given I am using approx 1.5G of dirt for an adult plant, obviously very tight, and in a smartpot which yields a very full magnificent root ball, how much time do you think it can go without (1) depleting the FF soil nutes and (2) without depleting the pH balance capability? Do you feel the pH balancing capability of soil should last the whole grow? Do you routinely change your soil mid-grow?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how putting in a higher pH feed (due to pH'ing it up) will cause a lower soil pH than normal. I respect your experience and want to use your advise, just trying to understand it better.

Thanks for your awesome answers by the way! It is very helpful.

 

[Marzbadrock]

Transplant if you'd like, what I meant was try it on your next go around so the plant is grown in a healthy environment from the beginning. Most of the time you really will see problems arise about 10 days into flower. The plant shown above is never going to do what it is capable of. I use square 2 gallon pots and pull a QP per plant....not phing.

 

[Marzbadrock]

The pH of soil maintains all the way through even on my 10 weekers as long as I flush before the start of flower, I veg for 2 weeks and my soil is reading 1000 ppm runoff, I get my ppm down to 400 then move into my flower room. After flowering begins I feed at least 1000 ppm and up to 2000 ppm depending on what strain I'm currently growing.

 

[SteveI]

The plant shown above is never going to do what it is capable of.

It's all I got right now, have a new seedling started but I would hate to scrap this one. It's ok if it is not my usual 2-3 oz yield. Do you think it can still turn around and produce something, albeit not the biggest grow of all time? Anything that can help a sick plant bounce back besides time?

Also, I realized FF nutes can mean a lot of things. I am using (in proportions according to their included pamplet):

Big Bloom, Grow Big, Tiger Bloom, Boomerang, Kangaroots, and Microbe Brew. I also have the Sledgehammer product for flush although have not used that yet. I started to on the first flush until I realized how out of wack the pH was and then just used the faucet to flush.

 

[Marzbadrock]

Also I use no bloom nutes until buds have formed, the bloom nutrient is not needed until blooming has begun, your bloom nutes will build up in your soil and cause a low pH as well. The first 10 days of flower period I feed only 1000 ppm grow. My plants quadruple in size in those ten days.

 

[SteveI]

I veg for 2 weeks and my soil is reading 1000 ppm runoff

Is the 1000ppm from nutes or just from organic breakdown in the FFOC soil?

After flowering begins I feed at least 1000 ppm and up to 2000 ppm depending on what strain I'm currently growing.

Wow, so 2000ppm of FF nutes and you do not pH it at all? That would probable be around a high 4 pH feed. The FF feed schedule pamphlet even says to pH. Maybe it is the lime you put in?

 

[Marzbadrock]

Absolutely dont scrap it. It will finish out for you. Tiger bloom is probably what drops your water so low on pH.
You flushed her out with in pH water?
Let her dry out, keep your feeding low ppm because your roots can't pull up that much until they recover a bit. Like I say before, once recovered watch for deficiency, but it won't be lockout it will be because they are eating so much.

 

[Marzbadrock]

And yes the 1000 ppm runoff is from the ff soil only, no food.
And no I dont use foxfarm nutes. I use Atami.
Foxfarm nutes are ok but they haven't evolved in years, thetre are way worse nutes out there but there are way way better too.
I prefer in this order....Atami bioNRG
Botanicare
Advanced nutrients

 

[Marzbadrock]

I believe from personal experience that the best nuts line for beginners is botanicare, grow, bloom, liquid karma and sweet. They have other supplements but using the 4 part regimen above produces healthy, sticky plants. And its simple

 

[SteveI]

You flushed her out with in pH water?

Last night I flushed her directly under the faucet for approx 10 gallons, then I put a half gallon of distilled with 1 drop of pH up and 3/4 tsp of cal/mag through it. I buy distilled by the gallon so I can't do a large flush with that without a trip to the grocery to buy all their jugs (which I obviously don't want to do).

My tap is approx: 200-400ppm and pH's in the 6.6 to 7.1 range. It is odd but I swear it is not consistent. Sometimes it PPMs at 400 and other times as low as low 200's. I have a good hanna meter that I pH calibrate and keep the probes clean and moist (with tap water). I check tap water semi-frequently and have used it before in grows but have gravitated to distilled because the variance in pH and PPM causes me to not trust it. I'm too small for an RO setup but was thinking of Brita as a poor mans variety. I know that doesn't get rid of everything but I am assuming it will clean up tap somewhat.

If 1000 ppm is the expected runoff from just the soil, no wonder my runoff was so high. Live and learn!

I also may bump down the number of nutes, maybe I don't need all the different "blooms" at this point. Save them until everything is healthy and it looks like it needs more.

In this tiny micro grow I have, is there value to leaving the sickly, somewhat crunchy fan leaves on there? I am normally of the mindset to wait until you can easily pull a leaf off before removing any material but I never had anything like this. I never crop, I do LST. I try to be kind.

 

[Marzbadrock]

I would pull any damaged leaves, they will not recover. They do make RO systems that are tiny for just taps. What I notice is in my water depending on weather, it fluctuates ppm and pH due to spring runoff, heavy rain, drought, and cold weather. The only water modifications I do is a active charcoal filter I plumbed into my tap under my sink.