KJ's T5/CFL 1st Time Grow

[KarlJay]

Well several of the clones have all but died off. Others look to be doing very well and several have roots well underway.

I'm convinced this whole problem is because I didn't have lights down at the bottom.

The clones from the 1st grow went excellent and were all from the bottoms of the plants.

What changed is that I stopped using the CFLs on the lower parts of the plants.

This made the lower parts MUCH more underdeveloped.

Here's a pic, you can see some are doing very well or at least well, while others are very near dead.

I thought the clones would recover from the brown tipped under developed leaves, but clearly I was wrong.

I've got about 10 plants left in veg and so there's no real problem getting more clones, but from now on, I'm pulling only the best, even I it has to be a middle branch.


You can clearly see one near dead at the left near the bucket, and brown leaves on the right.

The drying is coming along nice, It's sad to see all the "water size" leave the buds, but that's the way it happens.

Checked the last 7 plants from grow 2, they still need some more time.

 

[mcloadie]

hey karl, good weed, have you checked each hole in your cloner when it's running to make sure you have coverage at every site?, those cuts won't require hardly any light when they're rooting. I get my best results with 85-90 degree water, humidity dome at around 85-90%, and 1/2 tsp./5 gallons water in my res......they should be ready to plant in ten days, 1/4" roots, which is when I stick em in dirt.

 

[KarlJay]

hey karl, good weed, have you checked each hole in your cloner when it's running to make sure you have coverage at every site?, those cuts won't require hardly any light when they're rooting. I get my best results with 85-90 degree water, humidity dome at around 85-90%, and 1/2 tsp./5 gallons water in my res......they should be ready to plant in ten days, 1/4" roots, which is when I stick em in dirt.

Some of the holes are getting less than others, I need to raise the sprayer an inch or two.

I don't use a humidity dome, never have, I'm sure it would help, but I had great luck with the 1st batch.

The water is pretty much room temp, I don't add anything to the water or stems.

Just based on the excellent results of the 1st clone batch, I really think the problem is my selection of weaker plants.

I had no failure until I started using weaker branches. Maybe some of the vit B1 would have helped, but I still can't ignore the how the 1st batch did so well and those were strong branches vs these weak branches.

It also makes sense that the plant is stressed when you cut the clones, so the weaker the branch, the less chance it has.

One easy way to tell is to just take stronger clones and see what happens.

I hear the people like to take the lower branches, I wonder if there is a reason for that? Other than those are the ones that many remove because they tend to be too far from the light.

I now have CFLs on both sides of the ones in veg and as soon I'm working on getting some more CFLs in there.

I think the best plan is to get rid of the window A/c and replace it with another HPS light that's down low. I like the idea of an open area in the center with an HPS bulb hanging down the center. Just gotta get the room cooler.

 

[mcloadie]

Some of the holes are getting less than others, I need to raise the sprayer an inch or two.

I don't use a humidity dome, never have, I'm sure it would help, but I had great luck with the 1st batch.

The water is pretty much room temp, I don't add anything to the water or stems.

Just based on the excellent results of the 1st clone batch, I really think the problem is my selection of weaker plants.

I had no failure until I started using weaker branches. Maybe some of the vit B1 would have helped, but I still can't ignore the how the 1st batch did so well and those were strong branches vs these weak branches.

It also makes sense that the plant is stressed when you cut the clones, so the weaker the branch, the less chance it has.

One easy way to tell is to just take stronger clones and see what happens.

I hear the people like to take the lower branches, I wonder if there is a reason for that? Other than those are the ones that many remove because they tend to be too far from the light.

I now have CFLs on both sides of the ones in veg and as soon I'm working on getting some more CFLs in there.

I think the best plan is to get rid of the window A/c and replace it with another HPS light that's down low. I like the idea of an open area in the center with an HPS bulb hanging down the center. Just gotta get the room cooler.[/QUOT

That's funny, the only bad cuts I ever rooted were unhealthy when I took em, that will make all the difference. What I have found is this; cuts taken from the lower part of the plant root faster.....but grow slower.....and the opposite from cuts taken from the upper portion of the plant. There may be more cell production sites closer to the root system of a plant, what happens is the plant gets the message to make roots, and the plant switches it's energy to making root cells. I use hormex in the res., it has b vitamins in it.............good shit!

 

[KarlJay]

I might have to try some of that Hormex. I'm being careful about buying too many nutes. So far, I have a system that in general is working pretty good, so I being careful not to screw things up.

 

[mcloadie]

I might have to try some of that Hormex. I'm being careful about buying too many nutes. So far, I have a system that in general is working pretty good, so I being careful not to screw things up.

Hormex is for cloning!

 

[KarlJay]

Well that's the final feeding for the last of Grow 2. Next, they'll be flushed and probably cut down at the end of the week.

Going to put the cured product into bags real soon so I can free up the jars for the 3 plants that are in drying and the rest of grow 2.

I'm concerned about long term storage in the foodsaver bags. I'm still holding the bags from grow 1. The other people involved have really flaked on this, one story after another.

I just hope the product doesn't go bad in the foodsaver bags. It's been about 2 months already.

Just put the 3 drying plants into jars, each plant into it's own jar. One plant didn't make it past the 1/2 mark on a 1/2 gallon jar.

So far, that means 18 1/2 gallon jars filled with 7 plants to go. Each plant averaging less than 1 jar.

That would probably put me about where I was with the 1st grow.

In other words, the per plant yield dropped by about 60% or more. (this is still just eyeballing things, no scale)

 

[Graytail]

And you have more light on the second grow, don't you? As I recall, you added lights during the first grow.

You should probably burp the bags weekly - that way, you can get a good sniff, too, before anything even thinks about going bad. Glass would be better, but I bet plastic will work.

Sounds like you're dialing it in for the 3rd grow.

 

[KarlJay]

And you have more light on the second grow, don't you? As I recall, you added lights during the first grow.

You should probably burp the bags weekly - that way, you can get a good sniff, too, before anything even thinks about going bad. Glass would be better, but I bet plastic will work.

Sounds like you're dialing it in for the 3rd grow.

I started Grow 1 with NO HPS, then 1 about a week or so into flower, then about 2 weeks later added the 2nd, then about the last 1/3 of the flowering I added 2 more HPS.

So yea, I have to change things up a bit. I'm thinking to spread out the lights some more, or just taking 1 down and putting it bare and down the center of the plants.

Kinda like a "bulls eye" with a light hanging down the center and the plants in a circle around it. Then I can rotate the plants so the outer sides get light.

It's really clear the lower needs more light.


As far as storage goes, these are the vacuum bags so I'd have to cut them to air them out. I thought several people said once they are cured, they can handle long term storage with no problem, you just got to make sure they are fully cured.

They do look exactly the same as the day I put them in there, so that's good.

I'm going to have to jump on the other people involved with this. I'm sitting on 2 full harvest's worth of product and they fell asleep at the wheel.

So hard to find people you can depend on.

It's kinda funny, my 1st try was the best so far. If I had just kept the same per plant yield, I would have had about a 7.5 pound yield. I guess you have to learn what to do as well as what NOT to do...

 

[Graytail]

As far as storage goes, these are the vacuum bags so I'd have to cut them to air them out. I thought several people said once they are cured, they can handle long term storage with no problem, you just got to make sure they are fully cured.

They do look exactly the same as the day I put them in there, so that's good.

Oops, forgot you said vaccum bags.

So hard to find people you can depend on.

Don't I know it. I'm really fed up with irresponsible people! They're grossly outnumbering the ones with honor.

 

[KarlJay]

Oops, forgot you said vaccum bags.



Don't I know it. I'm really fed up with irresponsible people! They're grossly outnumbering the ones with honor.

If you take out all the flakes, liars, BSers, Wannbes, and stupid people... there really aren't too many left over to get things done.

 

[KarlJay]

Went ahead and pulled some of the clones that had good roots and put them into soil.

The pics clearly show that the clones with the underdeveloped leaves didn't root well or not at all. I'm leaving some in there that look like they are still healthy, they should develop roots soon.

Last batch I planted one in soil that didn't have any roots, and that plant did very well.

I'll take some more clones, but I'm undecided as to how many to take.

After the last batch had a poor per/plant harvest, I might cut back the numbers and get better yield, or keep the same numbers but change the light setup.

Here's the pics showing the roots.

Here's the clones still waiting for roots and a few dead ones laying down in the front.

Here's the ones that are in soil as of today.

I don't really know what the right number would be for my layout. I know it's more than 10, but 27 might be too much. I'll have to give this some more thought.

I think it's pretty clear that I was taking too many weak branches for clones and they failed. Not a problem, I've got plenty to chose from for more clones.

It might be interesting to see how these rooted ones compare to some stronger ones that I'll take next. I'd like to know of it effects the overall growth of the plant.

 

[DharmaBud]

KJ, sorry to hear this batch had some die off's. Did something change in the routine, or maybe different strain?

 

[Graytail]

You're running 3 1000s, right? I know Doc Bud, for instance, runs 2000 watts over 12 plants in a 4x8 tray and he gets phenomenal yield and quality. That would be 18 plants for you - 6 per light - sorta in the middle of your #1 and #2 grows. 27 gives you 9 per light, which crowds them a bit during full flower.

I always took cuts from the lowest 4 branches of any plant, but you're right about them needing to be vigorous. The limp weak ones aren't worth it - better to take a higher branch, or to take more from a better plant.

 

[KarlJay]

KJ, sorry to hear this batch had some die off's. Did something change in the routine, or maybe different strain?

I'd bet money that it's because I picked weak branches. It's the ONLY thing that changed. Same spray rig, same water mix, same lights, same strain... It's the only thing that changed.

Look at the pics and you see some brown leaves, not very big leaves, yet the upper part of the plant was VERY healthy.

 

[Graytail]

KJ, I don't know if you read a lot of other grower journals, but you really should read through shottafire's journal. take a look at the last page first:

Shottafire's Manic Organic 2kw Perpetual With Supersoil & Teas

He has a pretty impressive grow going, similar to the scale you're working with - he has two 1000s over two 4x4 trays. It looks like he's going to yield close to 2 lbs from just 9 Bubba OGs in a 4x4 tray. Check it out. I thought of you.

 

[KarlJay]

You're running 3 1000s, right? I know Doc Bud, for instance, runs 2000 watts over 12 plants in a 4x8 tray and he gets phenomenal yield and quality. That would be 18 plants for you - 6 per light - sorta in the middle of your #1 and #2 grows. 27 gives you 9 per light, which crowds them a bit during full flower.

I always took cuts from the lowest 4 branches of any plant, but you're right about them needing to be vigorous. The limp weak ones aren't worth it - better to take a higher branch, or to take more from a better plant.

Actually I'm running 4 600's in the flower room.

I think you are spot on. I've got to rethink my light system and the number of plants. I went in simply thinking "more is better" and that proved wrong.

I have to rethink my whole light layout. I thought 4 up high would be perfect, I think I need to have 3 up high and at least 1 down low, or switch to the LST route, and fewer plants.

One thing that sucks, is that each change takes so dam long to see the results.

 

[Graytail]

I just caught a pretty good buzz, heheh, so I may not make perfect sense, and pardon me if I'm intrusive, it's just that your grow sorta reminds me of myself 30 years ago. A partner and I ran a 10,000 watt operation in a 40x60 foot barn for 7 years, and we started a lot like you have - just grew pot and bought lights and grew more pot. We didn't know much - just what we learned from 3 books on growing pot. We just grew it, took cuttings and grew some more of it. As near as I can remember, it must have been Columbian. I was thinking it was Mexican, but by then, Columbian was widely available, so that's probably the bagseeds we had.

Anyway, so now I want a private closet grow, and I've learned SO much here at 420Mag. I wish we'd known all this stuff back then. One of the things I'm learning is canopy management, which is basically what you're talking about - getting as much light to as many buds as possible. Our Columbian always grew to 6 feet, and we needed that height to get enough yield, but so many of the newer strains can yield well at 3-4 feet, which is about as much depth as you can get with an HID - 3 feet basically. So, a 4 footer will have a wasted empty foot at the bottom and 3 feet of canopy. Perfect.

I think you should consider growing them shorter, either by topping or LST. I'm not so sure about Scrogs. The lack of flexibility bothers me, and I wonder if a guy can't accomplish much the same thing by pulling the plant wider with some mild LST. Just pull the apical top to the side until it's the same height as the other branches, and they'll all grow at the same rate. You'd have a shallower, more level canopy, getting more light to the plants.

Jus food for thought - I'm buzzed

 

[KarlJay]

I really like the idea of topping, but I haven't done it before. Is that where the upper parts of the plant look like a deer's antler and they pull out wide and grow up?

I kinda had this going with the 1st grow, it made them wider and I had more room.

 

[mcloadie]

I really like the idea of topping, but I haven't done it before. Is that where the upper parts of the plant look like a deer's antler and they pull out wide and grow up?

I kinda had this going with the 1st grow, it made them wider and I had more room.

Grow em, then break em all down level karl........canopy management!