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Leaves pointing straight up, and some are shaping like a claw

BAKIND

Active Member
I will set up a journal however, I am looking for help with a diagnosis.

Deep water culture 5 gallon bucket with two aire pumps aerating the system.

I am maintaining ph between between 5-6 and 5-7. EC is at 1,5 (700 ppm)

light is 400 watt metal halide. I have been changing notes every 4-5 days, and everything had been fine up until I trimmed a bunch of fan leaves. Not sure if that's related to the problem . The light had been as close as 12 inches away, however, I have been steadily pulling it back to 24 inches now. Can anyone take a guess, as to what's going on here? Any diagnosis would be highly appreciated as things were going great.





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Ganjagrandaddy

Well-Known Member
Please check your roots for any nasties. are you using anything to protect against root zone pathogens like hydroguard or silver roots ect.. ?? Usually it is below the surface issues we see in the leaves. Dwc is not as simple as people talk about , i am exp grower of decades yet my last grow in rdwc ( 1st time) was a nightmare because of a few simple things i did not know about. res temp below 19°c , oxygen and some great white shark and hydroguard , zero light getting into buckets is also a must. watch for it getting in through net pot gaps and if buckets are white , they let light in and if all black , they heat up from the lights and fuck temps up too. simple fix is to cover buckets/lid to avoid both. Please have a quick look at my journal from last run ans you will see i had similar issues and nearly lost the whole crop. Barneys Farm Cup Winners Bonanza Starring Root Rapid 8 Pot RWDC
hope this helps mate dont worry , all is not lost
 

TorturedSoul

Member of the Month: May 2009, Oct 2010, Sept 2017
I am maintaining ph between between 5-6 and 5-7.
You should allow your nutrient solution to drift up to 5.9 or even 6.0 (as the plant feeds) before adjusting it back down (by replacing the nutrients that it has consumed, like phosporous, if possible). In other words, you want to allow the plant to see the pH swing through that range rather than try to maintain a static pH. First, because that would have you constantly adjusting your reservoir, lol. But, more importantly, because the elements are not all easily accessible at the same point on the pH scale.

I think a lot of new(ish) DWC growers miss that, and it can be the cause of "little issues." Sometimes, this will continue until there's a deficiency ("lockout") - at which point, the gardener tries curing it by adding more of what the plant cannot access properly. If said gardener gets lucky, this will have the side effect of changing the nutrient solution's pH, and the plant might then be able to access that/those element(s). However, it can also lead to other issues instead of curing the original one.

This thing is probably the reason for a lot of calcium and magnesium "deficiencies," BtW.

light is 400 watt metal halide.
The light had been as close as 12 inches away, however, I have been steadily pulling it back to 24 inches now.
Why? Those aren't seedlings. Are you trying to get the plants to s-t-r-e-t-c-h for some reason, or...?
 

BAKIND

Active Member
Here are the latest pictures. It looks like the situation is getting worse. I added a picture of the roots this time. They look healthy to me, however, please tell me if you see something wrong with them! I am going to raise the PH to 5.8 to see if that helps. My PH stays very stable at one value for the most part, and it mostly goes down 0.1 a day, at the most, if anything at all.

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BAKIND

Active Member
Please check your roots for any nasties. are you using anything to protect against root zone pathogens like hydroguard or silver roots ect.. ?? Usually it is below the surface issues we see in the leaves. Dwc is not as simple as people talk about , i am exp grower of decades yet my last grow in rdwc ( 1st time) was a nightmare because of a few simple things i did not know about. res temp below 19°c , oxygen and some great white shark and hydroguard , zero light getting into buckets is also a must. watch for it getting in through net pot gaps and if buckets are white , they let light in and if all black , they heat up from the lights and fuck temps up too. simple fix is to cover buckets/lid to avoid both. Please have a quick look at my journal from last run ans you will see i had similar issues and nearly lost the whole crop. Barneys Farm Cup Winners Bonanza Starring Root Rapid 8 Pot RWDC
hope this helps mate dont worry , all is not lost

I am using nothing specific for the roots. Please see my latest post. thanks.
 

BAKIND

Active Member
You should allow your nutrient solution to drift up to 5.9 or even 6.0 (as the plant feeds) before adjusting it back down (by replacing the nutrients that it has consumed, like phosporous, if possible). In other words, you want to allow the plant to see the pH swing through that range rather than try to maintain a static pH. First, because that would have you constantly adjusting your reservoir, lol. But, more importantly, because the elements are not all easily accessible at the same point on the pH scale.

I think a lot of new(ish) DWC growers miss that, and it can be the cause of "little issues." Sometimes, this will continue until there's a deficiency ("lockout") - at which point, the gardener tries curing it by adding more of what the plant cannot access properly. If said gardener gets lucky, this will have the side effect of changing the nutrient solution's pH, and the plant might then be able to access that/those element(s). However, it can also lead to other issues instead of curing the original one.

This thing is probably the reason for a lot of calcium and magnesium "deficiencies," BtW.


Why? Those aren't seedlings. Are you trying to get the plants to s-t-r-e-t-c-h for some reason, or...?
I figured that I would pull the lights backs until I get this problem under control. I am adjusting PH to 5.8 to see if that changes. Please see my latest post. thanks.
 

No Pain

Well-Known Member
leafs pointing straight up ? praying is a good sign ..now the clawing on the other hand is another . Your roots do have a healthy color to them from what I can see but im also seeing some brown spots in the picture .. are there brown/off colored spots on your roots ? or is it my comp ?
Next thing is what temp is your solution ? second do you see any buildup on the inside of the bucket of any kind . I ask because you say you are running two pumps and the solution looks like its getting pretty agitated and over aeration can cause nutrients to fall out of the solution .
second what EC/TDS are you running ?
third I see that you are using perlite in the basket is the nute level below the basket and is that pure perlite meaning perlite that does not have any additives ? either was I would make sure my water level is below the basket.
 

Emilya

Member of the Month: Mar 2019
What No Pain said! Your leaves pointing up toward the light is about the healthiest expression our plants can make. Your plants are very happy... this is NOT a problem... not in the least.
 

Barney86

Well-Known Member
Here are the latest pictures. It looks like the situation is getting worse. I added a picture of the roots this time. They look healthy to me, however, please tell me if you see something wrong with them! I am going to raise the PH to 5.8 to see if that helps. My PH stays very stable at one value for the most part, and it mostly goes down 0.1 a day, at the most, if anything at all.

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Thats cause your nutes are too strong mate. Ph should be rising and ppm should be just dropping. Knock about half off the strength, the N tox will go away and your ph will start rising as its supposed to.
Leaves going up like that is most likely the light too close.
The ppm meter tells you how strong to make the nutes. Number goes up its getting stronger as the plant feeds so needs less nutes and vice versa.
You want the ppm just dropping a little bit from dayy to day. Thats he sweet spot. Be around 350-400ppm plus your water at the moment.
 

BAKIND

Active Member
leafs pointing straight up ? praying is a good sign ..now the clawing on the other hand is another . Your roots do have a healthy color to them from what I can see but im also seeing some brown spots in the picture .. are there brown/off colored spots on your roots ? or is it my comp ?
Next thing is what temp is your solution ? second do you see any buildup on the inside of the bucket of any kind . I ask because you say you are running two pumps and the solution looks like its getting pretty agitated and over aeration can cause nutrients to fall out of the solution .
second what EC/TDS are you running ?
third I see that you are using perlite in the basket is the nute level below the basket and is that pure perlite meaning perlite that does not have any additives ? either was I would make sure my water level is below the basket.
There is some brown in the roots in small locations. What would that be? so it's not your computer. Solution is at 24 degrees celsius. There is no build up, as I change nutes frequently and thoroughly wash everything. EC is currently at 1.3 and PH at 5,8 currently. Had been a 5.5-5,6. I raised it slightly. Yes, and the water level is well below the bucket now. Bubbles Splash to the upper part of the roots. I was not aware that you could over aerate.
 

rocks911

Active Member
In my experience leaves pointing up occurs after feeding when the plant is at its happiest.
Leaves forming a claw shape is something different entirely
 

No Pain

Well-Known Member
There is some brown in the roots in small locations. What would that be? so it's not your computer. Solution is at 24 degrees celsius. There is no build up, as I change nutes frequently and thoroughly wash everything. EC is currently at 1.3 and PH at 5,8 currently. Had been a 5.5-5,6. I raised it slightly. Yes, and the water level is well below the bucket now. Bubbles Splash to the upper part of the roots. I was not aware that you could over aerate.
Alrighty … the brown spots could be a couple things ..the worst being infection that would be due to the temp of the solution and not using beneficial bacteria the other thing it could be is build up of nutrients falling out of the solution . Regardless I would recommend that you purchase some hydro guard or some other beneficial bacteria to run in the bucket if you aren't running a chiller as it will aid in not only promoting root growth and keeping bacteria at bay but it will also aid in the plants uptake of nutrients.

As @Barnes96 stated and why I was asking .. cut your feed in half that will aid in a couple of things one being your ph swing . In veg its natural for it to swing up and mid to late flower down (just no that) . Yes it is possible to over aerate more is not always better I feel the breaking point is around 2 liters of air per minute ...so look at your air pumps rating and google a conversion from cfm (which most pumps are rated) to lpm .

Now where the more disolved oxygen in the solution the easier it is for plants to absorb nutrients thus us telling you to reduce your strength and the reason your ph is fluctuating right now. I will post some aids .

As far as the basket I would have the water level close to the bottom but not touching.
33E5D78B-F7FE-4CA1-AFF1-039601DFD516.jpeg
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D7FBC97A-652A-46A3-89BA-21696A057A01.jpeg.jpg
 

BAKIND

Active Member
Alrighty … the brown spots could be a couple things ..the worst being infection that would be due to the temp of the solution and not using beneficial bacteria the other thing it could be is build up of nutrients falling out of the solution . Regardless I would recommend that you purchase some hydro guard or some other beneficial bacteria to run in the bucket if you aren't running a chiller as it will aid in not only promoting root growth and keeping bacteria at bay but it will also aid in the plants uptake of nutrients.

As @Barnes96 stated and why I was asking .. cut your feed in half that will aid in a couple of things one being your ph swing . In veg its natural for it to swing up and mid to late flower down (just no that) . Yes it is possible to over aerate more is not always better I feel the breaking point is around 2 liters of air per minute ...so look at your air pumps rating and google a conversion from cfm (which most pumps are rated) to lpm .

Now where the more disolved oxygen in the solution the easier it is for plants to absorb nutrients thus us telling you to reduce your strength and the reason your ph is fluctuating right now. I will post some aids .

As far as the basket I would have the water level close to the bottom but not touching.
33E5D78B-F7FE-4CA1-AFF1-039601DFD516.jpeg
CA268144-7EAA-4F77-90A3-77EB2D2D1B80.jpeg.jpg
D7FBC97A-652A-46A3-89BA-21696A057A01.jpeg.jpg
I will take a look at all this. I'll look at the rating on the pumps to compare to the liters of water in the bucket. Since raising the PH, things are starting to look better, and there is growth. I will look to see if I can find some beneficial bacteria for the roots. I live in south America, and supplies are limited, however, there are sources, and I will look around. I will report back shortly.
 

BAKIND

Active Member
As @Barnes96 stated and why I was asking .. cut your feed in half that will aid in a couple of things one being your ph swing . In veg its natural for it to swing up and mid to late flower down (just no that) . Yes it is possible to over aerate more is not always better I feel the breaking point is around 2 liters of air per minute ...so look at your air pumps rating and google a conversion from cfm (which most pumps are rated) to lpm .
WoW! I just looked in the box and it says 500 liters per hour!! What should I do?
 

No Pain

Well-Known Member
WoW! I just looked in the box and it says 500 liters per hour!! What should I do?
you had stated that you are running two are they both 500 liter per hour ? That's 8.3 liters per minute, you take that 8.3 liters and divide it by the number of gallons in your system ...so if you are running 4 gallons in your bucket it equates to 1.6 liters per minutes . so running one pump you should be fine . If you are running 3 gallons in your buckets its 2.7 liters per minute and I would watch for any kind of buildup on the sides of your bucket . If you see it you need to go with a smaller pump . Definitely cut the nutes in half.
 
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BAKIND

Active Member
Looks like she is recovering after raising PH from 5,5 to 5,7. leafs are starting to settle down and there is new growth. Light is at 24 inches, maybe I will start to get it a bit closer. EC currently at 1.1 (550 ppm) The new growth looks good. I have trimmed most of the clawed leafs and I am monitoring the new growth for correctness. I have also been spraying her with Phd water with some silica. Will report back. Here is the latest picture.

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Looking much better.
 

No Pain

Well-Known Member
Looks like she is recovering after raising PH from 5,5 to 5,7. leafs are starting to settle down and there is new growth. Light is at 24 inches, maybe I will start to get it a bit closer. EC currently at 1.1 (550 ppm) The new growth looks good. I have trimmed most of the clawed leafs and I am monitoring the new growth for correctness. I have also been spraying her with Phd water with some silica. Will report back. Here is the latest picture.

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Looking much better.
Remember leaves pointing upwards is a good thing and nothing to worry about . we where researching possible issues causing the clawing .
 

BAKIND

Active Member
She's made a good recovery it seems. None of the new growth has any clawed leaves. I have the PH at 6.0 currently and will be swinging it down to the 5.6 range and back up. I will see how she does. I am including a picture with detailed info.
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She's a cross between a white widow x blueberry from Chilombian seeds feminized 75% Indica 25% Sativa. Today I trimmed the two lower branches.
 

No Pain

Well-Known Member
I have the PH at 6.0 currently and will be swinging it down to the 5.6 range and back up.
let the ph do its thing and only adjust when absolutely necessary . follow the charts I gave you to dial in te amount of feed .
 

BAKIND

Active Member
Here I add more pictures of different angles so you can see her development. Opinions most definitely welcomed. I am trying to continue to bush her out. I will top again soon.

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Her trunk and branches are starting to thicken.

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Soon I will perform second and third pinching as I want to create a large thick bush.
 
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