LEDS - Multiple or one is better?

[try101]

Hello Everyone,
I have a question and hope to find some help from people with understanding better then me.
Please i ask in advance you be patient with me as i may not use the right terms as i am learning.

Have a 5 foot x 3 foot area for veg and grow.
have been using 400 hps and 600 hps for veg area and grow area. (i know should be using MH for veg, my bad from what i have learnt)
I want to use LED but from all the reading it has kinda made me ask the question. Want to save on power but also have the same results please

My confusion is...when reading on led they dont have good coverage. so people use multiple smaller lights.

1: People say be careful when manufacture say 300w led is to replace a 400w HPS, for example....now what is said is "A 300w LED only pulls eg 150w at the wall, so when they say that does that mean? does that mean that the 300w led really doesnt replace the 400 hps as it doesnt pull 400w from the wall (or in the case of the 300w led should be pulling 300w) Please i do understand after months of reading the leds are run down to extend there life, so my confusion starts with the comment of power draw from the wall matching light output.

2: LED have good par value and efficieny as the spectrum is more controlled..ok...now another confusion of mine, massive confusion...

lets say, please these are just number for the example.

300w led has 750 par at 18inch...cool, good for 2 x 2 area, draws 150kw at wall
600w led has 1000 par at 18 inch, good for 3 x 3 area, draws 300kw at wall
900w led has 1400 par at 18 inch, good for 4 x 4 area, , draws 450kw at wall ......ok now

the larger LEDS have a more intense light in a narrow area thus giving strong, full, dense canapy.

question is, it it better to use more little one vs a larger LED, i am confused because the smaller lights have a smaller par value vs the bigger lights, there for even if you have twice the amount smaller lights the par value in the area the LED is able to service is smaller. So why have 2 x 300w led if the max par is 750 in each, vs a 600w led that offers 1000 par. Wouldnt the 600W led give you more dense finish then the 300W led as the 600W led offer a stronger PAR. (in the restricted coverage area LED work in)

I know this may sound stupid or dumb, but if you run 2 x 300w led at 750 par each does that make it you have 1500 par in your grow tent?

Does multiplying the LEDS multiple your PAR in the room. If you had 2 plants 1 each under 300w led is that better then 2 plants under 600w led. Would the 600w led give you a better finish then the 2 x 300w leds?

3: If one needs to match the power draw from the wall for LEDS to match that of HPS lights to get the same result, why go to LEDS? So if one has 400w HPS in grow and 600 HPS in flower, so to replace HPS with leds does one need to get LEDS that have the wall power draw to get the same results? so now real saving in electricity anyway)

Thank you in advance for reading this and any help would be sincerely appreaicted.

Thank you.

 

[Kalimaki420]

Hi try and

First to notice is that LED have different quality i.e. bins and some manufactures are better.
More expensive models give out more PAR per Watt and last much longer.

I use several 300W / 185 W real panels and think it is much better than less bigger ones.
Most problem is to big hotspot and less coverage with big panels.
Par goes down very fast out of center and to much bleaches the tops.
More light source is always better with LED as the light quality is still the same.
Par can be misleading as it is very strong at center and over 1000 µmoles is to much without CO2.

PPFD is a better measurement but most don't give that info it is µmoles over and area.

 

[try101]

Hello Darkgrow, thank you kindly for your welcome and reply. Yes I have read allot on the cheaper meizhi, vipastar, mar hydro etc vs the elite like king, platinum etc. so have a decent understanding of them and hoping to save for some of the suite type panels.

This is where my confusion starts. From reading the coverage charts on LEDs Yes they loss par very quickly out the center and have less coverage. You are also correct with the high par reading in the centre of LEDs thus why my confusion, but you also clarified it with the 1000umoles is to much with out co2. I am not using co2.

So to get strong, full densipe buds, nice penetration through the canopy. What kind of par umoles should I work to? Maybe this may help me decide how many lights.

For example you use multiple 300's. if we speak example wise. If the centre of each of those 300 gave you say 750 par at 18-20inch. Wouldn't you get stronger thicker canopy with say 450 or 600 with out burning the tops? Or is there a break even point where co2 is needed?

Is there a limit to how much light at how high to use without using co2. I am also keeping in mind that I would like a more dense finish then an airy fluffy finish. If that makes sense. Or do I need to wake up and smell the coffe as I am hoping/expecting to much with out co2.

 

[Kalimaki420]

You don't need CO2 it is just that plants produce more but gives many other problems like need for ac.
I don't use CO2 and get very dens buds with my platinum.

In your case I would use 2-3 x 160-180W models you can afford.
It is height vs coverage and par.
I keep my canopy at 10-15" away and train to get an even canopy.
The height is adjusted if I see some bleaching.

 

[try101]

Darkgrow, there some nice panels man. I have read excellent reviews on platinum and i also appreciate there youtube clips explaining and showing par value difference with there model an also the cheaper option panels. That's a class setup bro, hitting them from all angels.

Your right, and i see your point, using smaller or medium sized panels and more of them to extend there coverage. I just need to work out the sweet spot as in the combination weather to go the 300 or 450's. I say medium as the medium panels..say the 450's offer a good par value (more so in the center) vs the 300's and price wish is not to bad.

I can see in your setup you could of used 2 or 3 larger panels but rather 5 smaller panels, and that also gives you flexibility.

You said "More light source is always better with LED as the light quality is still the same" reason for my late reply was that comment sparked a bulb in me, especially the part "the light quality is the same", so i took a pen a pad and started looking at the size of the panel and also how many leds in each....your bang on bro...if a 300 led has 60 leds in it at 5w then a 600 has 120 leds at 5w, and the panel sizes are almost just double in size. 2 x 300 leds slightly spaced part gives you pretty much what a 600 led does but you have the advantage of covering more area.

So the PAR value of the 300, 450leds (on most average panels and there center most highest par) is a good amount of light for a nice large, full dense canape.

May i ask then out of curiosity, why would someone want to use the larger panels? If price for a 300led is almost half that of a 600led yet a 600 offer less coverage as the leds are all in the same panel. The only advantage of the 600 panel is the center area of the highest PAR value is allot stronger of that of the 300 panels.....then you mention bleaching of the tops if the light is close which made me think well you have your panels approx 18-20 from the tops, if you had 600 panels you would need to move them higher up say 24-26 inchs to avoid top bleaching, which then kills the par value and brings it lower then your 300 panels sitting 18-20 from the top, so i was like what da.

am i missing something that is right in front of me but cant see. is there a brake even formal of some sort. Hope im not sounding silly here.

Also Darkgrow, i am assuming your early stages of blooming, with those lights will those collars/tops fill and dense up nice and hard along the whole top branchs?

 

[Kalimaki420]

You got it quite well and yeh that is at week 3.
Cant upload atm so that pics are old and I took some to see the lights hanging.

I had a former grow with a buddy and got also 150, 450 and 600 models.
Had thought about to take 10 x 150 vs 5 x 300 but to much to mess around with wiring and more costly.

I liked the 300 most as it has no big hotspot and I don't need to hang to high.
First I only have 6,5´height in my room.
2nd is if you go higher to prevent bleaching par goes down faster out of center

 

[try101]

very very nice, they look....beaut ti full.....and your using top of the line platinum's. This has been a awesome help guys. Truley better to use say 300 or the 450's as they offer a nice balance, decent PAR (even though its very centered), and wouldnt need to hang to high up, and you seem to have good penetration through the canape. Your branches look full and healthy.

Need to do my math now and workout what i can afford to spend on panels. Probably want to go at least 4 x 300 or 450 to start and see how i go.

 

[dr.h00k]

2 450 watt COB panels would prolly cover your space...3 even better...depending on location...shipping can be significant...such as it is in my case...if you search the jungle that servers your area...some good deals to be had...cheerz...h00k...

 

[try101]

i have spent the last few days doing some learning/educating about COB panels and looking at some of the DIY kits. So many people speak very very highly of COB panels. I am also referring to there efficiency and quality and produce of final result are also spoken to be of top shelf finish. I have emailed couple of people about COB light kits to see how they can do for me.

There has been big talk about CREE 3590's (which are meant to be the best, but are pricey), but there are some new models that have come out that people are raving about.These are what they call VERO 29's and also the CITIZEN CLU048 1818 or CLU048 1212. (please i am not electrical minded and all this info i am writing is what i have gathered from days of reading, so i am sharing in hope that someone more educated then me can fill in the gaps).

These are meant to be more affordable and of very good quality and finish. This has opened another area of interest for me. When you start to work out pricing on the VERo and CITIZEN COBS, they are reasonable in price for what you get...

This can be of interest to allot of people also, and they are now offering per-assemebeld kits for people like me with no idea.

I start to become very confused though when there is talk of 36V chips and 72V chips to work with this or that driver. I feel this is a major step forward.
I have spoken to thouse who have used other lighting systems before and COB's are hands down the most efficient from what i have been told, taking into considering many factors, eg..Efficiency, power draw, lifespan, final yield result....you are seriously ahead.

Also the price on the VERO's and CITIZEN are actually really not bad at all.

Massive eye opener guys these COB kits. Certainly worth a read or checkout at least.

 

[Vestrimatrik]

i have spent the last few days doing some learning/educating about COB panels and looking at some of the DIY kits. So many people speak very very highly of COB panels. I am also referring to there efficiency and quality and produce of final result are also spoken to be of top shelf finish. I have emailed couple of people about COB light kits to see how they can do for me.

There has been big talk about CREE 3590's (which are meant to be the best, but are pricey), but there are some new models that have come out that people are raving about.These are what they call VERO 29's and also the CITIZEN CLU048 1818 or CLU048 1212. (please i am not electrical minded and all this info i am writing is what i have gathered from days of reading, so i am sharing in hope that someone more educated then me can fill in the gaps).

These are meant to be more affordable and of very good quality and finish. This has opened another area of interest for me. When you start to work out pricing on the VERo and CITIZEN COBS, they are reasonable in price for what you get...

This can be of interest to allot of people also, and they are now offering per-assemebeld kits for people like me with no idea.

I start to become very confused though when there is talk of 36V chips and 72V chips to work with this or that driver. I feel this is a major step forward.
I have spoken to thouse who have used other lighting systems before and COB's are hands down the most efficient from what i have been told, taking into considering many factors, eg..Efficiency, power draw, lifespan, final yield result....you are seriously ahead.

Also the price on the VERO's and CITIZEN are actually really not bad at all.

Massive eye opener guys these COB kits. Certainly worth a read or checkout at least.

I'm running a diy setup right now with 12 COBs spaced over a 3x3 frame and I can tell you from experience that it has been hands down the best $1200 I spent for my room. I'll upload a pic a little later just to show you what can be achieved with a panel like mine about 18" away and topped a couple times (ya know, in case it's the deciding factor).

 

[Vestrimatrik]

I know the light isn't 18"away like I said but that's only because I raised it a day before this picture.

Either way, if you can get your hands on a COB LED (or build one) then do it! This one only pulls about 600 actual watts.

 

[try101]

i have spent the last few days doing some learning/educating about COB panels and looking at some of the DIY kits. So many people speak very very highly of COB panels. I am also referring to there efficiency and quality and produce of final result are also spoken to be of top shelf finish. I have emailed couple of people about COB light kits to see how they can do for me.

There has been big talk about CREE 3590's (which are meant to be the best, but are pricey), but there are some new models that have come out that people are raving about.These are what they call VERO 29's and also the CITIZEN CLU048 1818 or CLU048 1212. (please i am not electrical minded and all this info i am writing is what i have gathered from days of reading, so i am sharing in hope that someone more educated then me can fill in the gaps).

These are meant to be more affordable and of very good quality and finish. This has opened another area of interest for me. When you start to work out pricing on the VERo and CITIZEN COBS, they are reasonable in price for what you get...

This can be of interest to allot of people also, and they are now offering per-assemebeld kits for people like me with no idea.

I start to become very confused though when there is talk of 36V chips and 72V chips to work with this or that driver. I feel this is a major step forward.
I have spoken to thouse who have used other lighting systems before and COB's are hands down the most efficient from what i have been told, taking into considering many factors, eg..Efficiency, power draw, lifespan, final yield result....you are seriously ahead.

Also the price on the VERO's and CITIZEN are actually really not bad at all.

Massive eye opener guys these COB kits. Certainly worth a read or checkout at least.