Microbes, beneficial bacteria in soilless media

[Sangmang]

I'm having a hard time finding factual information on whether or not beneficial bacteria can colonize coco and if it could, would it even play a role in the delivery of salt based nutrients to the root system.

** I'm looking for links to REAL resources/studies on this subject(preferably outside of the cannabis community). Please don't post info offered by companies about their own products. And no offense but I'm not looking for "I use bennies every grow and my crops are amazing". I'm hoping someone has done the research and has a definitive answer.

Thanks!

 

[Phytoplankton]

Just google "Coco and Microbes", the conventional wisdom is yes they do help, even with inorganic nutes. Coco is a good medium, but microbes survive due to the added nutes, without them the microbe population will crash, that said, they rebound very quickly (a day or two). The microbes aid making nutrients available to the plant.

 

[Bill284]

I'm having a hard time finding factual information on whether or not beneficial bacteria can colonize coco and if it could, would it even play a role in the delivery of salt based nutrients to the root system.

** I'm looking for links to REAL resources/studies on this subject(preferably outside of the cannabis community). Please don't post info offered by companies about their own products. And no offense but I'm not looking for "I use bennies every grow and my crops are amazing". I'm hoping someone has done the research and has a definitive answer.

Thanks!

Sorry I haven't seen clinical research.
I do have 6 years of testing to come to a reliable conclusion.
Stay safe.
Bill

 

[Sangmang]

Just google "Coco and Microbes", the conventional wisdom is yes they do help, even with inorganic nutes. Coco is a good medium, but microbes survive due to the added nutes, without them the microbe population will crash, that said, they rebound very quickly (a day or two). The microbes aid making nutrients available to the plant.

I was under the impression that microbes feed on organic matter. And if hydroponic nutrients are already immediately available to the plant then wouldn't that make microbes irrelevant?

 

[SmokingWings]

I was under the impression that microbes feed on organic matter.

My impression too. What throws us off is we sometimes forget that Coco Coir is an organic matter that when it is not decomposing it seems to be something artificial or inert.

Even if some bacteria were to colonize and start decomposing Coco it would not be enough for growing most plants because of a lack of diversity in the organic material. The plant might be able to pull some macro and a micro nutrient but it would starve to death. The Coco would have to be mixed in with other organic materials and the whole pile allowed to decompose.

I am not sure if that is what you mean by "...would it even play a role in the delivery of salt based nutrients to the root system."

 

[SmokingWings]

I'm having a hard time finding factual information on whether or not beneficial bacteria can colonize coco and if it could, would it even play a role in the delivery of salt based nutrients to the root system.

Found several articles which might be the start of what you are trying to find out. Coco husks or hulls or whatever they are called can take up to 20 years to decompose if they are just piled up and most gardeners stop with that. But a bit of drilling down in the lists of links is showing some interesting articles.

The articles I am finding are from non-Cannabis growers who are experimenting with the decomposition of coco coir and similar. If the coco coir is mixed with other organic material the process speeds up. Becomes a matter of how much Nitrogen is added to the mix. Also some of the researchers experimented with adding various bacteria and soil organisms and are keying in on which ones work the best; as in which ones cause the coco to break down the fastest or will produce the best 'compost'.

Oldest article found so far goes back to 1980 or references some research for the early '80s.

 

[Redcup]

You might find this literature review helpful. Look up:
“Plant-Growth Promoting Rhizobacteria in Soilless Cannabis Cropping Systems:
Implications for Growth Promotion and Disease Suppression”

 

[Redcup]

You might find this literature review helpful. Look up:
“Plant-Growth Promoting Rhizobacteria in Soilless Cannabis Cropping Systems:
Implications for Growth Promotion and Disease Suppression”

This link was removed by an admin, as it was a direct link to a pdf file. If you google the title you can find the document.

 

[Sangmang]

This link was removed by an admin, as it was a direct link to a pdf file. If you google the title you can find the document.

I saved a copy before they deleted. Thanks, thats the stuff im looking for! Much appreciated. I learned that its less the soilless media that makes the microbes unnecessary and more so the chelated nutrients that I'm using that are already available for uptake. I loosely understand this stuff and would like a stronger grasp.

 

[Phytoplankton]

Found several articles which might be the start of what you are trying to find out. Coco husks or hulls or whatever they are called can take up to 20 years to decompose if they are just piled up and most gardeners stop with that. But a bit of drilling down in the lists of links is showing some interesting articles.

The articles I am finding are from non-Cannabis growers who are experimenting with the decomposition of coco coir and similar. If the coco coir is mixed with other organic material the process speeds up. Becomes a matter of how much Nitrogen is added to the mix. Also some of the researchers experimented with adding various bacteria and soil organisms and are keying in on which ones work the best; as in which ones cause the coco to break down the fastest or will produce the best 'compost'.

Oldest article found so far goes back to 1980 or references some research for the early '80s.

When making compost, which is basically just plant matter, for decomposition into a good usable compost you want a Carbon to Nitrogen ratio of about 30 to 1. Problem is I have no idea what coco C to N ratio is. I know sawdust is about 300 to 1, so if you have 30lbs. of sawdust to decompose, you'll need to add 1lb. of 100% nitrogen fertilizer. Grass clippings have about a 15 to 1 ratio, so they decompose on their own without added N. Certain other plants such as legumes (peas/beans) have nitrogen nodules on their roots, which fix atmospheric nitrogen into a form useable to the plant, so the addition of those plans to the compost will speed decompsoition. So I did a little more research, coco coir has a carbon to nitrogen ratio of about 100 to 1.

 

[SmokingWings]

So I did a little more research, coco coir has a carbon to nitrogen ratio of about 100 to 1.

I do not have the links that I found last Monday around anymore so I can't check them.

And, 100 to 1 explains why so many people think that coco coir is inert. It is still organic just like peat-moss or shredded leaves, just a lot more carbon.

 

[Bill284]

I do not have the links that I found last Monday around anymore so I can't check them.

And, 100 to 1 explains why so many people think that coco coir is inert. It is still organic just like peat-moss or shredded leaves, just a lot more carbon.

I put bokashi and insect frass in my coco.
The microbial activity feeding and strengthening my roots is phenomenal.
I don’t need to read a study to see the increased health and productivity of my garden.
Stay safe.
Bill

 

[Emilya Green]

The problem here is that you are dealing with much more than just one type of microbe, and the various types that are needed to process all of the elements that a plant needs to survive, all feed on these different elements. Coco has none of this in it naturally, so if you want to support the microbes and keep them doing all their microbe things, you need to feed them.

Dr. Earth, Geoflora, and many others can supply the raw elements to the coco in order to allow this to happen. As long as you have this material in place, the microbes can thrive in coco and can participate in the feeding of the plants. If this organic feeding cycle is allowed to happen, then another important thing happens that also helps in the feeding and maintenance of the microbes... the plants feed them too. In the organic feeding cycle, the microbes carry their processed elements to the roots and the roots reward and communicate to the microbes through exudates... and this is another important part of the feeding cycle of the microbes themselves.

If you short circuit this natural organic feeding cycle by also giving readily available nutes in a chelated form, made available to the plant directly through the roots as long as the pH is within a certain range, the plants then get all they need through the roots. The plants are happy and no longer need to signal through the exudate system to microbes that they need this or that, and they stop rewarding and feeding the microbes. Even though raw organics may still exist in the coco to feed the microbes, without the exudate signalling and reward system given by the plants, the microbes will stop thriving and will start to die off.

You can't combine organic and synthetic methods without causing this die off... it really is all one or the other. You can add active microbes periodically to keep things going, and they will indeed process some of the raw elements and make them available to the plant, but nutrition follows the path of least resistance... if it is readily available it will be used before something that needs to be processed. If you use synthetic nutes in the grow, you may as well save your money on the organic stuff, as it is only going to add a small percentage of additional activity to your grow and I don't see a lot of cost/benefit to doing so.

 

[Sangmang]

I put bokashi and insect frass in my coco.
The microbial activity feeding and strengthening my roots is phenomenal.
I don’t need to read a study to see the increased health and productivity of my garden.
Stay safe.
Bill

I always prefer to understand why things are working. Thanks for the input What type of feed do you use?

 

[Bill284]

I always prefer to understand why things are working. Thanks for the input What type of feed do you use?

I've tried Prescription Blend, Geoflora-nutrients, GH, and a couple others.
Ever since I started using Bokashi and Frass together there has been a marked increase in production, quality and quantity.
I had a harvest every 4 weeks, the numbers just kept getting better.
Stay safe.

 

[Roy Growin]

I use micro fungi too and pre rinse coco (or plugs) in a weak Rhizo and organic Gro/Bloom, + Enzyme from week 2/3
Seems to work ok for me

 

[Redcup]

Here are some points from the paper posted above, this may help put things together.
There are a few categories of microbes that are of main interest in coco or other hydroponic substrates.

The first is the mykorrhiza which usually comes in a blend of endo and ectos. For coco, the main species we are interested in are the glomus spp, especially the intrardices. This is an endo arbuscular fungi, which means it enters the cells and colonizes the roots (“endo” means inside), and branches out like a tree (“arbus”). These form a symbiotic relationship, and get fed by the plant roots with carbohydrate exudates. They help the roots uptake minerals especially phosphorus. In an environment with high amounts of available phosphate they will become dormant. Its possible these will help the young roots as they grow and become less useful after the seedling stage. Anything other than the amf are not useful in cocoo but just get included in a general mix.

Another category are the plant grown promoting microbes. These are notably bacillus, psudomonus, and trichoderma among some others. The bacillus are bacterial symbionts which colonize the root surface and will provide root protection from pathogens such as fusarium (root rot). They also produce aminos and other growth stimulants for the plant, and induce systemic immune response, assisting overall plant health.

Another type of pgp microbes are the trichoderma, which are fungal symbionts, free living and do not colonize the roots but are existing in harmony with the plant, living near the roots but not within.

Most innoculates will be a consortium of these spores. The idea is to have a community of a few compatible species that provide the benefits and out compete any non desired microbes. It is a different approach than using a compost tea or frass that provides a spectrum of microbes, most of which to not effect the plant directly. There are innoculants specifically chosen and cultivated for suitability in hydro, such as urb or tribus, and will thrive in the inorganic feed solution.

A lot of the biological additives are an attempt to provide the products of these pgprs, such as aminos, enzymes, vitamins etc. There more to the symbiosis that simply nutrient uptake.

So by providing regular innoculation, we can keep the desirable population in healthy colonization. Sporulated forms will be inert until in the root zone, and so they will have a decent shelf life.
Hope this is helpful sorting the terms out.

 

[Roy Growin]

Here are some points from the paper posted above, this may help put things together.
There are a few categories of microbes that are of main interest in coco or other hydroponic substrates.

The first is the mykorrhiza which usually comes in a blend of endo and ectos. For coco, the main species we are interested in are the glomus spp, especially the intrardices. This is an endo arbuscular fungi, which means it enters the cells and colonizes the roots (“endo” means inside), and branches out like a tree (“arbus”). These form a symbiotic relationship, and get fed by the plant roots with carbohydrate exudates. They help the roots uptake minerals especially phosphorus. In an environment with high amounts of available phosphate they will become dormant. Its possible these will help the young roots as they grow and become less useful after the seedling stage. Anything other than the amf are not useful in cocoo but just get included in a general mix.

Another category are the plant grown promoting microbes. These are notably bacillus, psudomonus, and trichoderma among some others. The bacillus are bacterial symbionts which colonize the root surface and will provide root protection from pathogens such as fusarium (root rot). They also produce aminos and other growth stimulants for the plant, and induce systemic immune response, assisting overall plant health.

Another type of pgp microbes are the trichoderma, which are fungal symbionts, free living and do not colonize the roots but are existing in harmony with the plant, living near the roots but not within.

Most innoculates will be a consortium of these spores. The idea is to have a community of a few compatible species that provide the benefits and out compete any non desired microbes. It is a different approach than using a compost tea or frass that provides a spectrum of microbes, most of which to not effect the plant directly. There are innoculants specifically chosen and cultivated for suitability in hydro, such as urb or tribus, and will thrive in the inorganic feed solution.

A lot of the biological additives are an attempt to provide the products of these pgprs, such as aminos, enzymes, vitamins etc. There more to the symbiosis that simply nutrient uptake.

So by providing regular innoculation, we can keep the desirable population in healthy colonization. Sporulated forms will be inert until in the root zone, and so they will have a decent shelf life.
Hope this is helpful sorting the terms out.

An interesting read, thanks for the info

 

[Redcup]

When making compost, which is basically just plant matter, for decomposition into a good usable compost you want a Carbon to Nitrogen ratio of about 30 to 1. Problem is I have no idea what coco C to N ratio is. I know sawdust is about 300 to 1, so if you have 30lbs. of sawdust to decompose, you'll need to add 1lb. of 100% nitrogen fertilizer. Grass clippings have about a 15 to 1 ratio, so they decompose on their own without added N. Certain other plants such as legumes (peas/beans) have nitrogen nodules on their roots, which fix atmospheric nitrogen into a form useable to the plant, so the addition of those plans to the compost will speed decompsoition. So I did a little more research, coco coir has a carbon to nitrogen ratio of about 100 to 1.

This is one of the reasons coco coir should be pretreated with calcium nitrite, the microbial immobilization of nitrogen (the main reason is to remove the sodium).
Coir is mostly lignin which is fairly stable but will provide a carbon source for microbes that will also consume N, so often coco specific nutrients will have a slight bump in nitrogen also. The rhizosphere in coco is lively, even if h2o2 or high frequency feeding is used it is far from sterile.

 

[gr865]

In past grows I have used only green waste Compost tea, but have yet to use it on this grow. Need to make a batch.
Usually I will do three to four mini flushes during a grow and I add CT at the end of the flush. At the end of the grow I do a major flush and use CT big time.