420 Magazine Background

MVortex's Perpetual Thread For A 4x4 Tent & RDWC

multiVortex

Well-Known Member
Welcome one and all, and bless your hearts for reading my dribble. :laugh2: :19: :laugh2:

So before you line your bird cages with my ramblings, let's see what I'm in for, shall we? :ganjamon:


First things first. At some point, I'm going to fuck this up. Let me be clear about that. :D

What we have here is the start post, and I'll add to it as I go along. I'm going with the perpetual/on-going idea in journaling for this 4x4 tent, as I kind of like that having all things in one place for me deal. Tuh-may-toe, tuh-mah-toe, whatevs.

Here's what I'm working with, schematic-style. Not exactly to scale or position, but for general reference. It's your basic setup for the most part with a few tweaks.

rdwc-final.jpg




Now for the splainin part. :D


Overview:
- (4) 5gal buckets
- Buckets use the full netpot lid
- Buckets have 3/4" supply, and 2" return lines
- Each supply and return has a control valve for bucket isolation in case of "emergency"
- Each bucket supply enters bucket from top at a 90* angle, uses "waterfall" effect
- Each bucket also has a medium airstone for even more air
- Res has 2 air diffusers (the super micro bubbles for further oxygenation
- BlueLab Guardian continuous monitoring



Additional tweaks:

- From the pump, the supply hits a cross with a valve on each side. Straight through is the main supply. To the left is a valve which is normally closed and is for draining the system. To the right is another valve which is a feedback loop. If I need to decrease flow to the buckets, I can bleed some off and back into the res. If need be, I can also direct all flow back to the res temporarily for whatever reason. Main purpose is for adjusting the flow to the buckets though.


Pump is an Eco396
Bucket air pump is a Danher
Res air pump is an Eco AirPlus2
Plumbing: from the pipe-gettin store :D:D:D



Lighting:

- Growers Choice ROI-E680 w/controller (I like toys, just sayin)


Nutrients:
2 options, undecided:
- GH Flora Trio, and friends
- Advanced Nutrients Sensi Grow/Bloom, and friends

Mega Crop (from GreenLeaf) is interesting, but not sure I want to roll it on the first run in this new setup.


Run 1 Strains:

- Grandaddy Purple (Grandaddy Purple)
- Candyland (Emerald Triangle)
- Strawberry Lemonade (Barney's Farm)
- Blue Dream (Humboldt Seed Org)


Misc Tent Supplies:

- (2) 8" USB powered oscillating fans
- (1) 8" mini floor fan
- (1) 6" AC Infinity S6
- (1) 6" Carbon filter
- various ratchet hangers
- various ventilation parts/ducting
- various connectors, power strips (w/usb ports ;)), and whatnots
- spare water and air pumps, plus tubing/connectors
- backup light in case of emergency (cheap blurple, but it's a backup not a permanent)
- and other various shit that I probably didn't need but Bezos made me :D


I have all the parts I need (yeah, right... :rolleyes:) on hand, or arriving by tomorrow (5-pack of 3/4" uniseals for the buckets, since I just changed that on the fly from 1/2".)

Now it's time to get to buildin this out. With the time I have, I'm guessing it's going to take me a couple weeks to get things rolling and seed poppin ready. Hopefully when it's poppin time, these will actually pop. Unlike (it seems as least) the "free" autos off my main seed order. ("Lé sigh" -Peppe LéPew)

Off we go, at a turtle pace.

:snowboating:
 

multiVortex

Well-Known Member
Things sure go funny when you end up at the part gettin store. :rolleyes: :laugh2: :rolleyes:

Ran into a really nice guy that was also rummaging through various plumbing parts and building something in his head. So at least I'm not the only one that zombies around doing that. LOL

So I made a few minor tweaks to what I had laid out, and now have all necessary parts for my ridiculously over-complicated 4x4 RDWC grow. Some of the things I mentioned above, but below is a full, basic schematic. Please note that it is not a to-scale rendering, nor an exact placement document. It's simply a diagram to see how things are connected, interact, and work as a whole. ;)


rdwc-final.jpg




Previously I mentioned a feedback loop, in case of too much input to each bucket. I also mentioned the drain line (for res changes), etc. I believe I discussed my isolation loop as well, and I'm now documenting it in the diagram.

Pay no attention to colors, I'm not a plumbing engineer. Colors mean nothing other than visual distinction. ;)


Originally I had been kind of dreading a 2" isolation return. Seemed a bit of a waste of money (about $70 for all the parts) to me, but yet a necessary feature in my mind. So what I found, then built off of was a 2" tee, with a 2"->3/4" reducer on the offshoot leg. So the isolation return is 3/4", and 1/4 the cost. I can live with that. Originally I was planning to use 1/2", but wait just a darn minute here... the 3/4" ball valve was $1 less than the 1/2"? For real? Aight then, I'll gladly roll with 3/4" over 1/2" and save a few bucks. Not to mention I already have a ton of 3/4" pipe at the house, and a bucket of elbows and tee's. So 8 valves, and 2 crosses later, we're in business.

Now is that what I went there for? Um, yeah..... no. I went after a 3/4" pvc to garden hose connector for my drain line. LOL

Whoops.


The only operational change I may make to the above is to join up the drain lines into a common line before the end fitting for the hose connection. Not a big deal though, really. I also may put another 3/4" tee on the isolation return line, with the pipe sticking straight up about 2ft and into a valve, cap, or something like that. That way when I close the isolation valves I can open that for air and finish draining the lines. Or something along those lines. I'll have to think it out. It will be a few days before I plumb that part anyway, so I can think it up between now and then.


Well, off to drill some buckets and start the main plumbing. :nervous-guy::idea::rip:

:19::19::19:
 

multiVortex

Well-Known Member
Not much gained thus far. Planned to spend today plumbing, but it would seem a certain pup had other plans and intervened. Go to grab the carpet cleaner and the pump on it was toast. Great. Just great. Ran to the 11th circle of hell, aka walmart, and grabbed a replacement plus some more carpet juice. Stupid rain. :rolleyes:
 

multiVortex

Well-Known Member
Thanks for dropping in! It's a slow start, but work is in progress!

I've been building for 2 nights straight, and I've started putting the main return line together. Have the buckets into the tee, and buckets into the cross so far. Taking a break at the moment before I put the main trunk together. That will probably end my night, and then I'll start on the 3/4" supply line Wednesday night. May have to take a sick day before long to have a quiet, uninterrupted stretch of time. :D
 

multiVortex

Well-Known Member
And just like that, we hit a wall. Well, a self-imposed wall.


Hi, I'm multiVortex and I'm a Grow Builder-aholic. How y'all doin?


Right, so after a little back and forth in @Dano999's grow build thread (we're building very similar setups) about side reinforcement bars, this and that, he mentioned he was starting to get a little concerned from his tent pole bending slightly from the weight of his equipment; and he wasn't done yet.

Then came mentions of pole thickness, upgrades, and I had been planning on upgrading my 4x4 to a Gorilla after the first of the year sometime.

Long(er) story short, I ended up on the LED Grow Lights Depot site and now have a 4x4 Gorilla on its way. I'll be hanging as much stuff off my ceiling too, so what the heck. It was going to happen anyway, so might as well suck it up and get it over with now instead of trying to take apart my system and change tents next spring after the first run completes.

Throwing a little salt in the wound, I also hit the Gorilla site for a set of High CFM reinforcement bars. The bars themselves weren't bad at around $22, and they were nice enough to throw a 20% discount in, but then $20 for shipping was a bit much. lol

However, $305 for a 4x4 Gorilla (not shorty, not lite, but the full meal deal) was good by me. So there's that.


So, what now?

Well, plumbing-wise I'm about as far as I can go without the new tent being here. So far I have plumbed the 2" return line from each bucket to the main trunk, and the main trunk is cut and ready to glue up to and including the turn towards the ducting port. The Gorilla has a similar port, but I will wait until it arrives to finish plumbing the rest of that line. Would hate to be half an inch off and end up having to waste pipe.


New additions to the scheme:

So I got to thinking earlier today, "what if I need to take this crap apart and move it?"

Yep, off to the parts gettin store this evening for some flexible couplings. Of course they don't make them in 3/4", so I grabbed some unions instead. Slip x slip, screws together.


For the 2" return line I'm putting one between the tee and cross where the buckets join, and another after the turn towards the duct port.

For the 3/4" supply line, I'll use only one, just inside the tent before it splits lines. I can take those pieces off the buckets as a single piece. Same for the isolation supply line. Where it gets interesting is the isolation return. I haven't plumbed it yet, obviously, but I've already deviated (slightly) from the layout above.

I had to rotate each bucket 90-degrees from the image above. Why? Well, divide a 4x4 into 4 2x2 sections. The center of each bucket being in the middle of that grid. (So 1' away from it's 2 closest walls.)

With the return line facing towards the center, I had exactly 6.5" from the edge of the bucket to the center line, and had to go into a tee, then a valve, then the center tee (or cross for the front 2 buckets). Um, yeah, that was a bit longer than the 6.5" available. However, turning the buckets and changing the layout of the first tee was just about on spec. I needed an extra inch in there somewhere to hit the center connection, so that was cake.

Where the issue lies now is with that first tee. It comes out of the bucket into the top of the tee, so the flow can turn left or right. The direction towards the outside is the 3/4" isolation line, towards the inside is the main 2" return.

So now the isolation return will run around the outside, instead of meeting in the middle. Probably works better this way in the long run, as I won't have to work around the 2" line as much. Still thinking this part through, but the short of all that wall of text is that it's probably going to take 3 of the unions just for that isolation return. One on each side to disconnect the back buckets from the front, and then most likely one to disconnect it somewhere around the duct port of the tent.


Heck, at this point even capping the 3/4" bushing off the 2" tee and just using a uniseal on each bucket is on the table. Have to think it through and see where best to work around the 2" line will be. At some point there will have to be a little up and over for it. My best guess is the buckets on the right (the top two in the diagram) will run around the outside and turn towards the duct port as soon as they can, and then over the main line in the center, stay at that level, and join into the other side to go out through the duct port.

"Think think think." - Pooh Bear
 

multiVortex

Well-Known Member
See that wall of rambling above?

Let this be a reminder, kids: Use proper ventilation with PVC glue and solvents. :D :D :D



a320.gif




:19: :19: :19:
 

multiVortex

Well-Known Member
So while I wait on the Gorilla to show up, I'm guessing it will be the first half of next week as it's already Wednesday, I have a minute or two to think through this one glaring question:

"What in the flying fuck am I going to do with TWO damn 4x4 tents?"

So far, here's a short list of ideas:


a) pack it back in a box, save it as a backup

Easiest solution for space, saves me from listening to the wife yap about it, but also seems like a waste of money and usable grow space.



b) leave it out, but put it somewhere out of the way and use it as a trim and dry space

Not terrible, but leaves it barely being used, as well as it would be taking up space somewhere and sitting empty most of the time.



c) make that my new "one-off" space, replacing the 4x2

This is probably the most useful idea, and many pros to it. However, the big drawback is I would have to get another light. Whether that's another 4x2 light, or what, I don't know. The one I have for my 4x2 now isn't the greatest, but isn't terrible. On a 1-10 scale, it's probably a 5 or 6. Good enough, but could definitely be better.

The rest of the stuff would carry over from the 4x2 (exhaust fan, carbon filter, etc.) Although they were purchased for that, it would still work out in a 4x4 for a while.

The additional height gain of 20" (60" 4x2, up to 80" with the 4x4) would also be nice if for nothing more than headroom when I'm working. lol


d) combination of "b" and "c"

This is probably the better overall option. I won't feel like I've completely wasted the money on the original tent, and can still have some practical use for it as well. Not to mention I should be able to work a little better inside when trimming, and be able to run the exhaust enough to keep the house from reeking of that sweet, sticky sticky weed.


Short of all that, is I still don't know for sure. I'll have to look at lighting options, and see what the deal is. In theory I could just get a twin to what I have, or a different light all together. I do think I would stay with separate fixtures, just for ease of hanging and adjusting. Also if I only wanted to run 2 plants, or whatever.

If only using part of the tent, I could hang a sheet of reflective material to narrow the space down a bit and not be losing the reflective capability the wall provides. If it were needed, of course. On a single plant, it probably wouldn't be a big deal as the light can be right over it.

But, there is also the wife factor and "I thought this wasn't going to take that much space" chatter. :rolleyes:
 

multiVortex

Well-Known Member
I'm either going to rock the crap out of a 4x2, or the 4x4 is going to do pretty well with that board and my backup light combined.

Still not 100% square on what is what yet, BUT... I'm about to get into some @BudgetLED action with their 250w, 2-board model. Not 100% sure on full spec or R spec, but we'll see. I like the splash of UVA on the full specs, but also like the red bump from the r-spec. Ideally I would wait it out for their v3's to hit, but sounds like that may be spring or so from their other thread on it.

I could mix the boards and do one of each, but I'm concerned over the spectrum across the footprint and it not being the same. So guess there are some decisions to make.

In a perfect world I would just grab the 4-board and be done with it. But I dunno. I wasn't planning on another 4x4 setup, but thanks to weight, gravity, and bendy poles, here we are.
 

Dano999

Well-Known Member
I made use of the first 4 x 4 tent by using the floor liner under the reservoir and chiller area. it doesn't have the support needed to hold water so I may build something out of PVC. The old tent support tubes are too big since they are designed to go outside the liner and I would prefer the support to be inside.
 

multiVortex

Well-Known Member
I've thought about some type of water containment for under the new tent. I have some 1x4's laying around without any purpose yet, as well as some spare pond liner. It crossed my mind to use those and make a square that is approximately 5x5, then add the pond liner. A sort of mini containment area.

I probably won't bother with it in the end though. Can't really use the tray from the other 4x4, as that tent is going to see some use and become my backup space. (And where I'm dropping an auto run late this week.


Right now I'm pondering over my carbon filter setup.

Common sense tells me to use stick with it as an exhaust style. Filter in the tent, fan pulls through the filter.

My other common sense tells me that since the filter can also run with air being pushed through, that I can gain some head space (about 12" total) and by using it outside the space.


filter-setup.jpg



Nothing revolutionary by any means, but shows my thinking.

I would need to ensure I tape up any connection points, but certainly doable. Probably better than a long duct run to the outside, or a new hole in the outside wall. I can run the ducting between the joists, over to my shop, and hook the filter up there. If need be, I can add some ona gel in the shop (which probably wouldn't hurt anyway) and be in pretty good shape.

Now if I were smart, I would have just purchased an 8" filter, and ran both tents through that instead of two separate filters. I'm alright with that though. I have options, and that's not a bad thing.
 

multiVortex

Well-Known Member
I run the filter outside on the dry ( baby) 2x4 tent . Draws out into filter . I was told it
Won't last as long but it only runs about 3 weeks a year . But for sure adds space and effective .

My guess on that is from the lack of prefilter. When you suck through the filter, air hits that baffle around the filter first, and kicks out larger particles. Thus the filtering life of the carbon is extended as it doesn't have to deal with that gunk.

On the flip side is when you flow the other way and push air through it, the carbon is now exposed to any gunk which would have been trapped by the prefilter.

Obvious answer: prefilter on the duct in the tent.

I'm looking into options for this right now, and will update once I have something figured out.

You're right though, you don't really need carbon for the whole grow. I may skip venting across into my shop, and keep it in the same side of the basement. I would really like to just tap into one of the vents that go up and out. I would have to do a little engineering on that though. And I start doing that, things get a little more bulky, the wife rolls her eyes, so on and so forth. :19::19::19:

My first thought, before just reversing the filter flow, was to:

- run ducting to a box
- put filter in box
- put fan outside of box

Fan pulls through filter, which pulls air through the ducting hooked to the tent. If I did something like that, I could then hook into one of the roof vents, or run up to the attic, or something like that.
 

multiVortex

Well-Known Member
junction-box-airflow.jpg




Not exact routing, but gives you the idea I was rambling about. :)


Think of a box, similar to how a junction box works. A duct is connected from a tent duct to the box. Inside the box is a carbon filter. It is connected to more ducting, and an inline fan. Box is sealed so air is pulled from the tent into the box, and through the carbon filter into the fan, and out to wherever.


You could, in theory, also add a second tent connection to the box, and use one filter/fan for multiple tents. Doing that, I'd think a bump to an 8" filter and fan would be better though.
 

multiVortex

Well-Known Member
Alrighty then, Señor Gorilla has arrived and is in fine shape. I will start putting that up sometime tomorrow evening most likely, and then get back to plumbing.

I've been discussing with @Dano999 on his build thread about overcoming the "hump" in the plumbing return line. Or at least mitigating it's height as much as possible. The bottom of the duct port is at the 7" mark. So if the system gets lower than that, watch out for issues. I'm considering building a little riser out of 1x4, and on edge that's a 3.5" height. Add plywood to that, and now we're pushing 4" (assuming 1/2" ply, or just shy with 3/8" or 1/4") which would take out about 5" - 5.5" of that 7" hump after accounting for the height of the pipe in the bucket. If I'm doing that, might as well use 1x6 and just get it over with.

I really hate to give up that height though.

The buckets are 14.5" so after the lift, that puts them about the 20" mark. Assuming a 6" gap at the top for lights at their highest point, since the fan/filter is moving outside, and now we're looking at being down to 4'9" of height for growth space from the top of the bucket to the light. That might work, but those extra 6" may come in handy with a nice sativa. With a SCRoG at 12" over the bucket (may set it at 8") that's just under 4' of stretch height, effectively. I think that should be OK for the most part.

What I'll do is make this so I can change it back if I find the height to be an issue.


On the other side of sports, I'm considering putting together a little peg board deal for hanging power strips, etc. May also pick up some wire to extend the dimmer switches to outside the tent, but not sure it's really necessary.

I buzzed-ordered some crap off amazon last night that I thought I had to have. Whoops. (I did need it though, but ya know.)

- (2) 15' 14AWG extension cords
- 3-pack of 6' 14AWG extension cords
- 3-pack of 3-outlet adapters rated for 20A (1 plug turns into 3)
- 2-pack of 3-port USB adapters
- big surge protector power strip
- 7gal (round) fabric pots (on sale 6-pack for $10, $5 off)
- ratcheting pipe cutter (cuts up to 1 1/2")

Went there to get an extension cord and a pair of USB fans. (Still need the fans. :laugh2:)

I would have ordered the rest of that stuff next week anyway though.
 

multiVortex

Well-Known Member
The new tent is here, and put together!

IMG_2549.jpg


IMG_2550.jpg



No real point in showing build pics. Everybody's seen a tent go together. :)


So what the hell else is going on?


Well, let's see:

a) Getting the second tent squared up.

I've been waiting on some beans for the secondary tent (autos, fast buds) to get that rolling after the freebies never popped. made the order 2 weeks ago, and it's been stuck in the post-customs spot for close to 2 weeks now. Tracking says it cleared customs, so I dunno. Whatever. Middle of last week I made a backup order from another bank, which should ship mid-week and be here Friday/Saturday I'm guessing.


b) Diddling with the ventilation stuff.

After all this crap, I've decided to move air filtration/exhaust out of both tents and into a custom exhaust box. You may have been witness to the madness in another DIY thread.




Relevant setup explanation:



I will be building this in the next couple of weeks, I think. Have to figure out where I want the exhaust to go. Right now, it's just out the back of the cabinet. I'm not 100% sure if that is going to be a problem or not, since the cabinet will be in the same room as the tents. Granted the room is approximately 15x60, give or take, but the tents are both at one end of that. I could put a duct on the box exhaust and run it to somewhere else, but still undecided. Same room also has a couple pilot lights in it (water heater, furnace) so should add to the CO2 levels, but still would like a little trickle of additional outside air coming in. Don't really want to run ducting clear across the 60ft span to the natural air draws, but also don't want to put a hole in the side of the house.


c) Finalizing the plumbing on the RDWC for reality.

Trying to manage the intersection of the isolation return line and keep it at bay from the main return. Thus far the only issue is the intersection of that line with the main return line. The return line from the buckets on the right (looking at the tent) will come up to the middle at the front and hit the main return. So it's either up and over, or some other weird routing. That all may be moot because of the other issue: the hump. That's the return lines having to rise 5-6" above their natural plumbed height to get out through the tent duct.

With moving the filter/fan out of the tent, that gives me almost an extra foot of room back. (Filter is about 9" wide total, plus a safe 3" clearance between the light and the filter.)

What I'm highly considering is raising the buckets up just enough to where the return pipe is even with the bottom of the duct and can then go straight out. I've got some 2x2's laying useless, so what I'm thinking of is cutting 6" legs, then 12" cross bars. Make the cross bars in an X pattern, and mount them on the legs about 1/2"-1" down. This would but the bottom of the bucket at the 5"-5 1/2" level, plus the natural height of the bottom of the pipe, should be just barely enough to clear the duct. At which point I will either have to raise the res, or use a slightly taller one. Maybe both. I'll have to measure and see. I think my res is either the same height or a couple inches taller than a bucket. Accounting for the net pot depth as well as an inch or two of air below, it may work out without a riser on the res. We'll see when I get to that part of the plumbing.

Getting back to the isolation return line. If I'm going to raise the buckets (and it's either that, or turn the damn tent upside down, which don't think for a second I haven't considered), then that would let me put a dip in the isolation line and go under the main return. Problem solved. Whoopity dooooo.

Now I have also been thinking about the isolation loop. Sure, 3/4" for a single bucket (remember it comes out of a 2" line) is ok, as the pump for the isolation probably won't be moving near the water the main pump is. Alrighty then. However, if I have more than one bucket on the isolation loop (I figure a max of 2 will be on it) then the return flow would most likely exceed the capacity of the return line. Well, I've already got it set for a 3/4" transition at the split from the bucket, and 3/4" valves too. Which, for the record, should be fine individually. So what I'm going to do is this: run the isolation from each bucket into a 2" pipe. I'll try to explain a bit with top/bottom and left right, as you're looking into the tent. So the main trunk comes down the center, and turns to the left out of the tent.

Top left bucket, isolation return goes off to the left side of the tent, turns and comes forward. Top right does similar, but to the right.

These two lines I will keep as 3/4".

When they get to the front bucket where its isolation loop joins, I will convert from 3/4" to 2" and run back to the isolation bucket in 2".

This works well because I can still use the 3/4" valves, and just run from there into a 2". No sweat.

So on the agenda for later today is to build the bucket risers, then maybe make a run to the parts gettin store for a few minor things.

Heck, I may sneak out for that part early, so I don't have to get out later and can keep working through it.

So, there we have it.
 

multiVortex

Well-Known Member
Heck, I may sneak out for that part early, so I don't have to get out later and can keep working through it.

Done did it, there and back again. Running the isolation return in 1.5" instead of 2". Also sweeping around from bottom right bucket to top right, over to top left, down to bottom left, then turning left and out of the tent. Saves the trouble of doing a dip under the main return, and saved maybe $8 in parts. Added a rubber coupling, but took out the parts to go under the main. so there we go and that's that.


Also have a light and wind speed meters coming in the post.
 

multiVortex

Well-Known Member
Been putting in some time off and on. Wish I had more time to put into it, but it's coming along, albeit slowly. :)

First and foremost, let me offer a little tip. These ring things are awesome. Slip over the bars on your tent roof, and easily pop your ratchet carbiner thingy to them or whatever. They're cheap and can take the weight.

ring.jpeg




So to minimize the hump of the return line I threw together some little stands for the buckets. I was only going to do a 4" rise, but figured what the hell and went a full 6". What's 2 more inches at that point? (Combined with the level of the pipe from the buckets, it clears.)


bucket-stand.jpeg




So with 4 of those ready to roll, I went ahead and hung the light.

For reference, again, it's a Growers Choice ROI E680, and it's a bad ass, bright SOB. :laugh:


light1.jpeg



light2.jpeg



light3.jpeg



controller.jpeg



I went ahead and sprung for the controller. I like toys. :laugh::laugh::laugh:



Then it was back to plumbing.

plumb1.jpeg



Buckets on their stands, and the start of the main return is connected.


plumb2.jpeg



At this point I've added the turn to towards the duct. The rubber couplers are for ease of separation if I need/want to take the system down. No need to go cutting things apart.




plumb3.jpeg



I also threw together a little platform for the reservoir (main and isolation, shown below.)



plumb4.jpeg




No, the outside stand is not as tall as the stands the buckets are on. It didn't need to be because with a 2" gap at the top of the res, I only needed to raise the reservoir 4" to set the water level an inch below where the net pots will be in the buckets.

The pipe will come out the duct, turn at a 45* and go down, then into another 45* and into the back corner of the res.


The isolation reservoir (bucket) is sitting behind the main reservoir, but I may need to raise it a tick to get the water level right. I will have to double check this before I get much further.


Well, I guess break time is over. I think I'll go see how much more I can push out, plus I have some seeds to get started for the Lab tent. :D :D :D
 
Top Bottom