Need help with my Widows

[Hypo Hippy]

What Strain is it? White Widow
Is it Indica, Sativa or Hybrid? What percentages? Sativa
How Many Plants? 2
Is it in Vegetative or Flowering Stage? Flowering, 15 days under 12/12
Indoor or Outdoor? Indoor
Soil or Hydro? Soil
If Soil... What is in your Mix? Monrovia Organic, 25% by volume perlite added, 25% by volume seed starter Jiffy mix with vermiculite (50/50 sphagnum peat moss, vermiculite)....repotted with only monrovia mix and 25% additional perlite, 25% by volume 1/8" screened and composted horse stall material with 1/2 cup dolomite lime added
If Soil... What Size Pot? 5 Gal with 2 inches of pea gravel on bottom
Size (Wattage) of Light? How Many? 400HPS, 1 light
Is it Air Cooled? No, but fan blowing across the hood
Temperature of Room/Cabinet? Daytime temps 75-80, night 62-64
RH of Room/Cabinet? 45-50%
PH of Medium or Reservoir? Runoff pH 6.58 last watering
Any Pests? Only pests observed were soil gnats but have killed off with fly paper and none observed lately
How Often are you Watering? Every three days as needed, nutes every other watering and 1 tbs molasses every water. Heavy clear water flush on 1 Mar
Type and Strength of Fertilizers used? Mostly Fox Farms nutes...we don't use Tiger Bloom (cause we couldn't get it here and bought a Happy Frog product that the guy at a nursery in New Orleans convinced me was a suitable alternative..it is 0-5-0 bat guano) Our typical nute regimen at this point of flowering is 1 Tbs of Happy Frog, 1/2 tsp of Open Sesame, 2 Tbs of Big Bloom (we are switching to 1 Tbs of Big Bloom as per FF feeding schedule...just didn't get the BB until the first week of flowering so were playing catch-up) two drops of Superthrive, and a Tbs of molasses per gallon. If the plants look a little needy for nitrogen, we will add 1 Tbs of MG organic fertilizer that is 8-0-0 and is derived from sugarbeet molasses or 1 Tbs of Grow Big....only done this once
Size or Square Footage of Room? 4' x 8'...fresh air coming in at bottom of closet and ducted out via a ceiling fan unit.

Ok. Here's where we stand. Not trying to be paranoid, but these plants are making me that way. The leaf curling is still driving us nuts..it has been going on with these two plants (it also occurred in one deceased male, but was not occurring in our two indica-dominant male plants...also deceased) since about the second week of veg'ing. Sometimes I can convince myself that it is just what these plants are going to do, but at other times I just think that it is something else and to quote my grow buddy "this shit ain't right. I don't know what it is, but whatever it is is fucked up." I guess that about sums it up. These pictures will show a clear example of what I am talking about. Light yellow leaves, curling leaves and on one plant several of the leaf petioles (stems) are starting to show red/purple. What's up? Any ideas.


Here is Gladys...she is the variagated-looking plant. Only started getting chlorotic since her stem was broken nearly in two during first transplanted injury. Ever since then her new growth comes out chlorotic and greens up to a normal looking leaf as it matures. Going to my photo gallery and zooming in on this photo will give you a better look.

Here is Lucille...This is before we pulled the top down to open up the canopy. Notice the leaf curling..especially in the new growth. The older leaves don't show this as they tend to straighten out and look "normal"

Another shot of Lucille. This is one shows one of her secondary colas that has suddenly become the main top (because of the LST bondage on her former main top). The pic clearly shows the stems that have turned red. Is that normal or from some deficiency? Also a good shot of the "eagle claw" looking leaf curl.

Thanks for the help guys....and any/all ideas are appreciated.

 

[DEAN420]

I see your temps are dropping in to the low 60's at night! Ideal night temps should be no lower than 65f. Any lower than that and nutrient uptake begins to slow, this is strain specific mind you as some can take colder temps than others... but ideally go no lower than 65f for healthy growth...

I'd also check you soil temps because if your root ball temp drops below 65f then your in trouble!

 

[Hypo Hippy]

TBD...thanks for the info. We had been running the heater at night and never letting it get much lower than 70 or so, but I had read in other forums that it is good to get temp splits in the nighttime. I will try and get some more accurate temp readings down at the floor level (root). Thanks

 

[DEAN420]

You do need day/night temperature to be different but only by 5 to 10f. The temp split plays a roll in the plants life and results in how much or less internodal stretch you'll get!

When did you stop using the heater??

 

[ledtester]

What Strain is it? White Widow
Is it Indica, Sativa or Hybrid? What percentages? Sativa
How Many Plants? 2
Is it in Vegetative or Flowering Stage? Flowering, 15 days under 12/12
Indoor or Outdoor? Indoor
Soil or Hydro? Soil
If Soil... What is in your Mix? Monrovia Organic, 25% by volume perlite added, 25% by volume seed starter Jiffy mix with vermiculite (50/50 sphagnum peat moss, vermiculite)....repotted with only monrovia mix and 25% additional perlite, 25% by volume 1/8" screened and composted horse stall material with 1/2 cup dolomite lime added
If Soil... What Size Pot? 5 Gal with 2 inches of pea gravel on bottom
Size (Wattage) of Light? How Many? 400HPS, 1 light
Is it Air Cooled? No, but fan blowing across the hood
Temperature of Room/Cabinet? Daytime temps 75-80, night 62-64
RH of Room/Cabinet? 45-50%
PH of Medium or Reservoir? Runoff pH 6.58 last watering
Any Pests? Only pests observed were soil gnats but have killed off with fly paper and none observed lately
How Often are you Watering? Every three days as needed, nutes every other watering and 1 tbs molasses every water. Heavy clear water flush on 1 Mar
Type and Strength of Fertilizers used? Mostly Fox Farms nutes...we don't use Tiger Bloom (cause we couldn't get it here and bought a Happy Frog product that the guy at a nursery in New Orleans convinced me was a suitable alternative..it is 0-5-0 bat guano) Our typical nute regimen at this point of flowering is 1 Tbs of Happy Frog, 1/2 tsp of Open Sesame, 2 Tbs of Big Bloom (we are switching to 1 Tbs of Big Bloom as per FF feeding schedule...just didn't get the BB until the first week of flowering so were playing catch-up) two drops of Superthrive, and a Tbs of molasses per gallon. If the plants look a little needy for nitrogen, we will add 1 Tbs of MG organic fertilizer that is 8-0-0 and is derived from sugarbeet molasses or 1 Tbs of Grow Big....only done this once
Size or Square Footage of Room? 4' x 8'...fresh air coming in at bottom of closet and ducted out via a ceiling fan unit.

Ok. Here's where we stand. Not trying to be paranoid, but these plants are making me that way. The leaf curling is still driving us nuts..it has been going on with these two plants (it also occurred in one deceased male, but was not occurring in our two indica-dominant male plants...also deceased) since about the second week of veg'ing. Sometimes I can convince myself that it is just what these plants are going to do, but at other times I just think that it is something else and to quote my grow buddy "this shit ain't right. I don't know what it is, but whatever it is is fucked up." I guess that about sums it up. These pictures will show a clear example of what I am talking about. Light yellow leaves, curling leaves and on one plant several of the leaf petioles (stems) are starting to show red/purple. What's up? Any ideas.


Here is Gladys...she is the variagated-looking plant. Only started getting chlorotic since her stem was broken nearly in two during first transplanted injury. Ever since then her new growth comes out chlorotic and greens up to a normal looking leaf as it matures. Going to my photo gallery and zooming in on this photo will give you a better look.

Here is Lucille...This is before we pulled the top down to open up the canopy. Notice the leaf curling..especially in the new growth. The older leaves don't show this as they tend to straighten out and look "normal"

Another shot of Lucille. This is one shows one of her secondary colas that has suddenly become the main top (because of the LST bondage on her former main top). The pic clearly shows the stems that have turned red. Is that normal or from some deficiency? Also a good shot of the "eagle claw" looking leaf curl.

Thanks for the help guys....and any/all ideas are appreciated.

Your temps are ok I think it's a nute def. problem. Flush with straight water first and try making sure your ph is ok after mixing nutes. add some cal/mag and concentrated h202 at 3ml/gallon evry feeding Give them nutes every watering and flush once a week. Nutes once a week is not enough as you can see.

 

[Hypo Hippy]

TBD...thanks for the advice. We stopped turning the heater on about four nights ago. This leaf-curling business has been going on with these plants (remember we had two indica-dominant plants that turned out to be males that never exhibited this trait) since about 15 days into veg. As soon as the plants started growing in a vertical fashion the new growth showed this "raptor claw" looking pheno.

LED....thanks for the reply. We have been following the FF recommended feeding schedule and to be frank have probably been erring to the lighter side vs heavy. Have you ever used epsom salts for mag deficiency? I haven't looked for cal/mag anywhere but if it isn't too hard to find I could pick some up. So you rec feeding with nutes every feed? If we are only watering every three days...a flush once a week would essentially be the same thing we are doing. Feed then clear water basically once every six days. BTW..pH has been good, with the last watering runoff right at 6.58

 

[Bandit420]

Hi Hypo!
I just noticed this thread and saw the problem still going on so I dug out the book on this one!
I'm using the Bible by Jorge Cervantes.

The purple stems could be a result of one of many different micro/macro nute defincies

The leaf wilt could possibly be what's known as Fusarium or Verticillium Wilt.
Do a Google search and try to do some comparisons with some of the infected plants photos.
Apparently a plant will survive the wilt but it will have a significant decrease in weight and quality of the yield.
Jorge recommends destroying the plant and it's medium to prevent further infections.

 

[PitViper]

purple stems mean nothing as a whole...sorry Jorge.....yes mag def will cause purple......sometimes but more of the time its strain dependent FWI

 

[Hypo Hippy]

OB...thanks for the input. I hope it isn't the Fusarium or Verticillium wilt. Once again I must stress that these leaves are not actually wilting...they are curling down and only in the new growth. As the leaf matures it gets less and less noticeable until it is completely gone as the leaf nears the full-grown size. No symptoms of the curling AT ALL on the mid to lower leaves. I hope you and Jorge are wrong my man...lol.

Pit Viper..thanks for chiming in as well. I appreciate your inputs my man

 

[ChicagoJoe]

... Have you ever used epsom salts for mag deficiency? I haven't looked for cal/mag anywhere but if it isn't too hard to find I could pick some up. ...

I used Epsom Salts to help a deficiency. I dissolved a tbsp of Epsom in a cup of water, I made sure to shake it up and also crush the undissolved pieces. Once dissolved I put this solution into the gallon of water along with my other nutes.

I gave 2 applications in 1 week with great results noticed during the following week. After that I switched to cal mag plus and give 1-2 tsp / gal every feeding.

 

[Bandit420]

Have you taken any clones yet?
I'm curious if the clones would do the same thing since they get to establish their own root system away from the Mother plant.

 

[ledtester]

OB...thanks for the input. I hope it isn't the Fusarium or Verticillium wilt. Once again I must stress that these leaves are not actually wilting...they are curling down and only in the new growth. As the leaf matures it gets less and less noticeable until it is completely gone as the leaf nears the full-grown size. No symptoms of the curling AT ALL on the mid to lower leaves. I hope you and Jorge are wrong my man...lol.

Pit Viper..thanks for chiming in as well. I appreciate your inputs my man

Your run off is ok but ph for soil should be 6.2-6.5 no higher.

 

[Hypo Hippy]

Chi-Joe...thanks for the help. I am going to look for the cal/mag plus. I do have Epsom salts here at the house and if enough of you guys think a mag deficiency is likely I will use it. I don't want to get into a situation where I am chasing my own tail treating deficiencies that may/may not be occurring. Remember that the red petioles are only on one plant and really only showing on a couple of leaves.

OB...we took some clones this week and it's funny you asked that because I told my grow buddy the exact same thing. At least for the chlorosis in Gladys. I think that problem will go away when it gets it own new vascular system. The leaf curling is just weird. Go and look at my photo gallery and the trait starts showing up in three of my five plants (only have two now since giving the dudes the axe).

Led...our runoff was running in the low sixes and even as low as 5.89 before we added the dolomite lime when we transplanted to the 5 gal pots. The roots on all the plants looked very healthy and vigorous with thick, white roots coiling around the entire bottom third of the 3 gal pots they were in.

 

[Bandit420]

Hey Hypo, I have to disagree with the guy in NO saying the 0-5-0 BG is a good alternative to Tiger Bloom.
The guano is pretty much only p where as Tiger Bloom is a 2-8-4 that packs all of the micro and macro nutes needed like cal, mag, zinc, etc. When TB is combined with Big Bloom and Grow Big all the nutrient needs are met making defincies rare.
Maybe something mild yet nutrient rich like a compost tea over the next few weeks will get the secondary nute needs where they should be if that's what the plants are lacking.

 

[Jasonlee247]

sometimes certian nutrient toxicities will create lockout or deficiencies of some micronutrients making it hard to diagnose the problem, but as a 'general' rule droopy leaves curling down is a toxicity were upward curling is deficient. If this is the case and you use calmag to correct the lockout you could be adding an extra 2-0-0 to an already toxic soil. I agree with some of the above posts that you should flush with 6.0 pH water for a few days at least to see. If it gets worse than its definatly deficient, if it gets better it was toxic. I highly doubt that your night time temps are hurting your plants much at all. were I live It drops to the 50's at night and our outdoor crops do just fine.

 

[Hypo Hippy]

OB....I agree with you. In hindsight, I wish I wouldn't have bought the Happy Frog bat guano and would've gone ahead and ordered the Tiger Bloom. I am sure there are lots of combinations of nutes that guys give their plants and I am sure there are as many opinions on what's the best as there are members on this site, but the Happy Frog stuff doesn't have the micro/macro nutes added to it. I know that Big Bloom has quite the cocktail of additives and micronutes and I think Superthrive has a bunch of goodies too, but it is hard to quantify. Live and learn I guess. We have top-dressed with worm castings and are thinking about making worm casting tea to use....don't know if that would address these issues.

JL...thanks. We are going to take all these inputs in and try to figure out the best course of action. I would tend to agree that the leaf curling was a nutrient problem if it didn't go away as the leaves matured and if it was something that just showed up. We have been seeing this for weeks and scratching our heads.

 

[Jasonlee247]

ok, I did a little more research about this and all signs DO point to an Iron or Magnesium deficiency or both, maybe even a little zinc. You could spray with the calmag+iron or use a little epsome salts in the water. If you spray you should see quicker results but its recommended to do with lights off. I hope that you keep us updated once you get this taken care of!!

 

[ledtester]

sometimes certian nutrient toxicities will create lockout or deficiencies of some micronutrients making it hard to diagnose the problem, but as a 'general' rule droopy leaves curling down is a toxicity were upward curling is deficient. If this is the case and you use calmag to correct the lockout you could be adding an extra 2-0-0 to an already toxic soil. I agree with some of the above posts that you should flush with 6.0 pH water for a few days at least to see. If it gets worse than its definatly deficient, if it gets better it was toxic. I highly doubt that your night time temps are hurting your plants much at all. were I live It drops to the 50's at night and our outdoor crops do just fine.

I found this interesting from the nute study." I found additional Magnesium and Calcium made substantial improvements with bud growth generally and actually improved individual plant harvests when applied." This when feeding with chem nutes!
Also:"...Frequently, plants can process more calcium than is available. It also washes out of the leaves that are sprayed with water...."(p.253 of Jorges Bible, 5th addition.)

 

[Leary]

It seems that a similar "claw leaf" problem is happening to my plant. It has been happening for the last 4 or 5 days. The curling is not happening to any of the older growth just like your plants, but my leaves are dark green so we may not have the exact same problem... anyways, I flushed and the new growth seemed to be completely normal and healthy, no claw or curling. Yet the entire middle region of my plant is still covered with these claw leaves... the flush hasn't seemed to have fixed the majority of my plant, just the new growth (which is still good news but I would like to help all of my plant). I thought I would throw in my two cents to this thread since we seem to be struggling through the same problem. Good luck with your plants and keep please keep us updated

 

[Hypo Hippy]

Led and Leary...thanks for the advice/comments. Leary, our plants get that look and as the leaf matures it straightens itself out so that it is not prevalent or even noticeable in the large, mature leaves.

Here is a entry in my grow journal from last night that adds some to this thread...see what y'all think.....

Thanks for the inputs guys.

TS....to answer your question, I don't know. The lime was added just last week when we put the plants in 5 gal buckets, the leaf curling was first noticed on Feb 12.

Here is a shot of Lucille with the first early signs of the leaf edges curling down Feb 12

Here is a pic of Gladys that shows the first signs of her chlorosis (yellowing) her leaf curling didn't show up for another couple of days. Also on 12 Feb. I am convinced her chlorosis is due to a vascular problem from a stem break as a seedling....I have stated this many times in earlier posts, but know many people don't like to go back and read 13 pages of stuff...apologies to you that do.

After serious brain-storming we are thinking about a heavy flush and switching back to store-bought distilled water since the first signs of this "problem" started about 4-6 days after we switched to the Brita filtered tap water. Don't know if it is a coincidence, but makes you go "hmmmm." I have difficulty believing we have a toxicity problem as light as we have gone on nutes, but won't hurt to put the water to 'em. Our pHs have been running fairly decent the whole grow and since the lime is looking real good. Our temps have been pretty consistent both day/night, but if anything may run a little low on the night temps....we will fix that. The leaves don't show any of the classic signs of a single textbook nutrient deficiency. Oh well, we will see how they respond to the clear water.....lots of it!!!!! Thanks guys