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New grower, new to forum, not sure what is causing this

Ima Paradox

Well-Known Member
Growing 2 White Widow from seed in Fox Farm Ocean Forest Soil with Mega crop Plant Food during flower. Plants did well in veg but something has come up recently that has me stumped. I have checked the leaf charts but cant seem to tie this problem to any of the issues that are generally listed. Will describe the problem first and then go on about the plants environment.
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As you can see the lower fan leaves in plain light don't appear too bad but they are dying, under the purple light you can see the polka dotting of a leaf that is still attached, and under plain light lowest fan leaf dead center shows the little brown spots but are more difficult to recognize.

Now to describe the environment, growing in a closet in a 2'x4'x5' tent, with two very cheap 600 watt COB lights from a Roleadro knockoff, purchased a year and a half ago, Plants are about 18 inches from the lights, and as you can tell from the pictures they are in cloth pots. I water the plants about every 6 days right now with about 1/2 gallon of water that is enhanced with 6 grams of mega crop per gallon of PH 6.6 water , I get a runoff of PH 5.9 last checked 1 week ago. Watered today but did not check the run off because i didn't want to over water.

I am currently at Week 3 Day 7 with from the first sign of flower. So I have about 6 weeks to go and am hoping i can get this figured out before it is too late. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
 

stoneotter

Member of the Month: July 2019, Sept 2020 - Grow Journal of the Month: Nov 2019 - Plant of the Month: April 2020
Hi ima, I went to the problem solver link below and found pics that resembled your issue. It leads me to think there's a Phosphorus lack. The reading makes a lot of sense describing what the plant is doing with it and why. Take a look and see if you agree. I think she's just making buds and is hungry for what you're feeding for flowering food. Whoh MC huh? @InTheShed do you have any opinion on this little issue?
 

Emilya

Member of the Month: Mar 2019 - Grow Journal of the Month: Jan 2020
Hi @Ima Paradox and welcome to our forum! :welcome:

Your leaf problem seems to me to be a magnesium deficiency, and fairly severe at that, so you will need to get onto a fix to this soon. This is common when running strong LED light and also with filtered water, so don't think it is something you have done wrong... these plants are just magnesium hogs. Get some calmag+ and start adding it to your nute program, and this problem won't get any worse from here on out.
I have a couple other suggestions that I would like to make, and thank you for such a good description of your grow so I could really center in on these things.
First, the pH that you adjust to is just .2 away from the upper edge of the soil pH range, and FFOF soil has a strong upwards drift to 6.8 pH. Not long after you water, the buffers in that soil are moving the pH of your fluids upwards and before long the working pH in that container is at such a point that magnesium is not quite as mobile as you would like it to be. Try adjusting down to 6.3 pH ... FFOF soil loves it right here. Don't worry about runoff pH... it is a meaningless number.
 

Ima Paradox

Well-Known Member
I forgot to mention that this problem seems to be mostly on White Widow #1 (the one on the right) and that it had been occurring for about the last 7 weeks (which is before moving into the flowering tent or about last 4 weeks of the veg phase) it appears to be getting slightly worse as time goes on, but now plant number two also appear to be suffering a little bit as well.

stoneotter
I started the Mega crop watering when i moved the plants into the flowering tent 3 weeks ago, hoping that mega crop would correct the issue on Plant #1 and i am pretty confident that it isn't a cal mag issue because mega crop at 6 grams per gallon should be enough to handle that. Would love to hear from InTheShed on this, I know he uses mega crop.

Emilya
I am probably off on my PH readings I have a Blue Pancellient PH meter but I really dont trust it, and I am not sure where to test, I use the water from my Dehimdifier which tests out just like bottled Distilled water but the readings seem to change from time to time, I can and have calibrated the meter but it just seems to be such an unreliable way to read ph, (not much else out there that is better though). I will try buying another ph meter and then compare readings between the two and see if that is where my problem has been.

I think my lighting distance is ok because i have had the as close as 3 inches from my plant tops on my prior grow and the plants never browned out or anything but they didn't do very well as far a potency, but that may be more about when i harvested than anything else, the manual says 12 to 18 inches and i am running 18 to 20 inches from the tops of the plants.

As for the cal mag issue, maybe, but i don't see how i can add Mega Crop at 9-6-17 during flowering at 6 grams per gallon and the guaranteed analysis of of calcium 5.6 and magnesium 2.3 so if i go out and purchase calmag+ do i use it instead of mega crop or do i use it in addition to the mega crop?
 

Ima Paradox

Well-Known Member
This is a close up of one of the Fan Leaves under normal lighting, it looks much worse under the reddish purple light, and under the grow light it appear to be ALL of the fan leaves are this way on this plant and only a very small amount of fan leaves on the other plant, the sugar leaves around the buds look fine right now but I still have about 6 weeks to go, this may be just the plant is feeding itself but I should be able to make the fan leaves last until harvest time.
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Emilya

Member of the Month: Mar 2019 - Grow Journal of the Month: Jan 2020
that last leaf has scared me considerably... have you considered spider mites?
 

Ima Paradox

Well-Known Member
I can not see any thing ever moving, and i have looked over and over , i would think if it were spider mites, they would move or travel to the smaller leaves as well rather than just hitting the lowest fan leaves and then slowly moving up the plants towards the top but only on the fan leaves and never hitting the smaller leaves.
 

Ima Paradox

Well-Known Member
All right, well, the lack of help is making me wonder if you guys just want the easy problems, but it has been a week now and nothing new to report, my plants are growing, i am not over watering them, nor am i over feeding them, and the ph is right on the watering (when i water) the plants appear to be doing ok, still it is just the fan leaves , slightly more of them now, but nothing really bad, under normal light they actually look pretty good. I Would still like someone who has had a similar problem chime in, but i don't know what else to write.
 

Emilya

Member of the Month: Mar 2019 - Grow Journal of the Month: Jan 2020
if it were spider mites it would have been a lot worse by now... so lets see some current pictures of this problem. I want to know which part of the the plant it is occuring in, top, bottom or middle, or all over...
Lets solve this. Sorry I forgot about this, but I really figured that you would be saying more soon, wondering how to get rid of the little bugs. Based on what you said here tonight, I am going to assume we are looking at a nutrition problem... expect lots of questions :)
 

BigD13

Well-Known Member
That second picture looks like spider mites to me too. Now, I've never had them on my cannabis plants, but I have them on my canna lilies. On my canna lilies, it always starts on the lower leaves. They usually aren't on the upper or new growth. Even though I have them, the canna lilies still grow, they put out blooms, they propagate and produce new plants, etc. After a while, the lower leaves start looking like your first set of pics. So to me, just because your plants are still growing, doesn't mean they aren't mites, especially since you say there are slightly more. You may need some sort of magnification to see them. Best of luck, and I hope I'm wrong and it's not mites.
 

Ima Paradox

Well-Known Member
Just completed watering the plants, i do have a whole grow journal from seed to now, i am on week 5 day 3 of flowering for these two plants and they are holding up well it is absolutely just the fan leaves even now, buds are a little bit small based on comparison to other growers but appear to be ok in general, i need to ask if it would be right to post the while grow log in here it is rather lenthy and there are lots of pictures so i figured i that would not be appropriate. but since you said you wanted lots of pics i will post the whole grow log to this point.


White Widow Multi Topped
Started 3 seeds in July sometime

August 5th and I am on my second topping so I should have 4 branches so far, one seed didn't sprout so only have two plants and each plant weighs 2 lbs 3 oz when they need water, right now I water them until they weigh 3lbs 3 oz (so they end up with 16 oz of water ) and this is the second feeding I have measured so far.

11 Aug, weight back down to 2lbs 3 oz so watered them today, it is now back up to 3lbs 3 oz each. Growing very slowly, but growing, am thinking next water I will add some Miracle Grow fertilizer
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15 Aug. weight down to just under 2.3 lbs this evening so watered the back up to 2.3 lbs each added a little bit of miracle grow to them this feeding just to see if it helps them grow and faster, they are currently growing just fine, but seem to be a little slow, it is possible the plant is developing more roots as opposed to leaf.

20 Aug Noon, time for watering, down to 2.1 lbs today, so watered and took a couple of pictures, plant was pruned on the 16th and it is beginning to grow a bit now even though it looks a bit ratty right now

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24 Aug Noon, weight down to 2lbs 3 oz and 2 lbs 1 oz, watered them back up to 3lbs 3 oz each. Plants aren't looking quite so scrappy now, but will let them grow some more before any more pruning or training.
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26 Aug Evening. Watered plants back up to 3lbs 3 oz ea. Pruned up a few leaves that were trying to grow outside the edges.

31 Aug evening. Watered Plants each plant received 16 Oz water with 1/2 tsp Tiger Bloom Fertilizer 2-8-4 Plant back up to 3lbs 3 oz each now. Removed 3 small fan leaves from early growth that were damaged. PH of drain water at this time is 4.5 this is way too low. will try to bring it up next watering.

1 Sep Evening, mixing 3 grams of pelletized lime to 1 quart of water, and let it sit over night, measures 7.75 ph at midnight will check tomorrow.

2 Sep Noon, water measures 7.85 ph going to water plants a little early today and see if I can bring up the ph.
WW #1 weighs 2 lbs 10 oz before watering with 16 oz of 7.85 ph water, runoff water measures 4.53 ph, and plant weights 3lbs 10 oz after watering
WW#2 weighs 2 lbs 9.4 ox before watering with 16 oz of 7.85 ph water, runoff water measure 4.62 ph, and plant weighs 3 lbs 5.8 oz after watering

Next quart of water measures 6.5 ph adding 6 grams of pelletized lime measures 8.6 ph.
WW#1 weighs 3 lbs 10 oz before watering with 16 oz of 8.6 ph water, runoff water measures 4.68 ph, and plant weighs 3 lbs 14 oz.
WW#2 weighs 3 lbs 5.8 oz before watering with 16 oz of 8.6 ph water, runoff water measures 4.59 ph, and plant weighs 3 lbs 11 oz.

Next Quart of water measures 7.0 ph adding 6 grams of pelletized lime measures 8.6 ph.
WW#1 weighs 3lbs 14 oz before watering with 16 oz of 8.6 ph water, runoff water measures 4.53 ph, and plant weighs 3 lbs 14 oz.
WW#2 weighs 3 lbs 10 oz before watering with 16 oz of 8.6 ph water, runoff water measures 4.45 ph, and plant weighs 3 lbs 11 oz.

Next Quart of water measures 7.0 ph adding 36 grams of pelletized lime measures 7.5 ph.
WW#1 weighs 3 lbs 14 oz before watering with 16 oz of 7.5 ph water, runoff water measures 4.78 ph, and plant weighs 3 lbs 14 oz.
WW#2 weighs 3 lbs 11 oz before watering with 16 oz of 7.5 ph water, runoff water measures 4.88 ph, and plant weighs 3 lbs 12 oz.

Going to stop here for today and see how things progress, Let the plants get used to that level of Lime and see if the PH levels go up on next watering which should be about 3 or 4 days, I have liquefied a total of 51 grams of pelletized lime and that amounts to 0.9 oz of lime for each plant and I only see a slight difference in the runoff water from 31 Aug.

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6 Sep 1 PM
Plant #2 weighs 2lbs time for water, watered with 6.6 ph water, runoff measures 5.1 ph so going to add some 8.3 water now, runoff is at 5.0 going to add another pint of 8.3 ph water.. run off is now 5.3 ph going to add another run of 8.6 ph run off at 5.70 next run 8.6 ph in runoff at 5.7 ph.

Plant #1 weighs 2 Lbs even watering for first overflow of 5.18, second runoff at 5.28 ph, third runoff at 5.36 ph, 4th runoff at 5.48ph, 5th runoff at 5.5 ph and 6th runoff at 5.8 ph

going to let them grow

9 Sep Evening:
Plant # 1 weighs 2 lbs 8 oz, watered with 1 pint water 1/2 oz pelletized lime and 1/2 tsp tiger bloom for a final ph of 6.1 and runoff water measures 5.8 ph.

Plant # 2 weighs 2 lbs 1 oz, watered with 1 pint water 1/2 oz pelletized lime and 1/2 tsp tiger bloom for a final ph of 6.1 and runoff water measures 5.75 ph.

11 Sep Big day Transplanted both plants into their flowering pots and moved them into the grow tent, built a trellis for manifolding the plants, watered with 3 quarts of 7.5 ph water and got runoff water at 5.6 on plant #1, and 3 quarts 7.5 ph water and got runoff water at 5.75 on plant #2.

18 Sep soil still damp, but getting dry, fist sign of flowers on both plants little white hairs in places, mega crop should be here Saturday, am hoping to be able to wait that long on water. will get pictures after I water with mega crop.

20 Sep 5 pm, mega crop arrived in the mail, put together 6 grams mega crop and one gallon water, and watered 1 quart per plant today here is a picture
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25 SEP 9 AM
Took pictures this morning, watered day before yesterday with 6 grams mega crop and 1 gallon of water only gave each plant 1 quart of water each.
This is the end of the first two weeks since switching lighting to 12-12 cycle and the end of the fist week of actual flowering so tomorrow will be week-day 2-1
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27 Sep 4:00 pm week-day: 2-2
Took Pictures today, watered plants with ½ gal each of mega crop water, re arranged the grow tent and turned on both lights plants look like they are growing pretty good right now.

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Ima Paradox

Well-Known Member
03 October 4 pm week-day 3-1

Watered Plants today with 3 quarts each of 6 grams mega crop per gallon additional 1 teaspoon molasses and ½ half teaspoon of Tiger Bloom, Blossoms are looking good. Pictures below, runoff at 6.25 ph on WW#2 and 6.1 on WW#1.

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6 October plants growing, but don't need water just yet, here are the pics
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09 October week 3 day 7

Watered with ½ gallon each of mega crop 6 grams added to 1 gallon water and 4 tsp unsulphered molasses, took a bunch of pictures but not much has changed.



19 October week 5 day 3

leaves just starting to wilt, so watered with ½ gallon of nutritious water each (1 gallon water was mixed with 6.5 grams mega crop fertilizer and 4 teaspoons of unsulphered molasses) dry weight of each plant was right at 8lbs even.

latest pics from outside the tent in plain light
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and from inside the tent under the growlights the plants look horrible every single fan leaf is covered with little dots the picture doesnt show it very well but it is on every one of the leaves and i figure it is just the plants using up the fan leaves energy now but i would still like some confirmation.

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Homer Simpson

Grow Journal of the Month: August 2019 - Photo of the Month: June 2020
Sorry for the late reply but I was out all day and just got your message. To be honest when I have a nute problem I rely on the experts because I have not been growing that long recently but my simple system seems to work pretty good for me so I do have a little advice.

First of all, I screwed up one of my first grows by trying to adjust my pH with a cheap unreliable meter so adjusting pH can do a lot more harm than good and a while back @InTheShed posted a thread from some expert who said adjusting water pH was futile because alkalinity of the water and growing medium are the determining factors. So I don't adjust my pH anymore and have had much better results. Do we need to pH adjust our nutrient solutions?

I don't think you have spider mites because if memory serves when I got them decades ago there were small spider webs and I don't see any in your pics.

If I were you I would stop with the pH adjusting and just use tap water that has been aired out for 48 hrs to clear the chlorine and use 6g/gal of MegaCrop and see what happens. I am still having trouble dialing in my nutes but I think following MegaCrops recommendations are best to get stabilized. This is their feeding schedule. I truly believe usually growing this stuff less is more especially when starting out.
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Also, I believe that damage from nutes tends to be latent often so after you solve the problem things still look worse for a while. I didn't give this plant enough nutes to start with because the tips were burning, which usually means you have too much nutes, then I got leaves yellowing and turning much like yours which is a sign of not enough nutes so I was getting conflicting signs. Then I read a shortage something I forget also gives burned tips so I upped things again and that seems to have improved them a bit. So you can get burned tips from too much or too little nutes; who would have thunk it?

So I am still having some setbacks but I am doing much better than I was. With the plant I am currently flowering I am still getting some good buds despite it still turning yellow so all may not be lost with yours either. I know it is frustrating but everyone is here to help and you will get there. I have only been growing about a year and I am getting the hang of it. Once you get good results it is a lot of fun.

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Emilya

Member of the Month: Mar 2019 - Grow Journal of the Month: Jan 2020
from inside the tent under the growlights the plants look horrible every single fan leaf is covered with little dots the picture doesnt show it very well but it is on every one of the leaves and i figure it is just the plants using up the fan leaves energy now but i would still like some confirmation.
more pictures please... definitely looks and sounds like spider mites. You dont have to have visible webs to have spider mites.
 

Homer Simpson

Grow Journal of the Month: August 2019 - Photo of the Month: June 2020
more pictures please... definitely looks and sounds like spider mites. You dont have to have visible webs to have spider mites.
You may very well be right about that Emilya I just mentioned it because I remember seeing the webs but what also made me not think it was them was the fact it seems to be starting from the bottom like deficiencies often do. But I admit the pin marks do look like them. Also, my problems, when I started, were nutes and pH and mites were suggested as the culprit so maybe that is swaying me too?
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Homer Simpson

Grow Journal of the Month: August 2019 - Photo of the Month: June 2020

Jack420

Well-Known Member
Lol sorry brotha I hate mite I get them once a year down south it gets supa hot n there always evrey were witch sucks I’ve herd of things u can do witch I have never done so late in flower best of luck man those yellow bug fly traps helps big time hang a few up u will b surprised the next day how many are on them
 

Homer Simpson

Grow Journal of the Month: August 2019 - Photo of the Month: June 2020
All good bro. For his sake, I was hoping it wasn't them because I have never been able to beat them. I tried the soap sprays and that seemed to kill the plant more than the mites. Never tried the traps tho.
 
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