Newbie Grower, Carmen Auto x Diva, Outdoors

[CBDMed]

Without knowing what's in the mix you have and the mix properties the plants want that you want to grow you're really flying blind.

Haha, well, it is a 420 forum, and I am already pretty OT with this discussion, so I am trying not to get myself kicked off the forum by saying something like "Well, my ex-cop neighbor wants to bring me ten baby cocoa-puff plants, and I don't know how to make cocoa-puff plant soil, and I don't want any trouble. But one website recommended starting with 4 parts hydrangea mix, and then adding one part coco or other soil loosener, and one part Vermitculite (which I have not seen anywhere here). I only have some unknown 'tierra negra with rice hulls' mix, which they use for practically everything here. But they say that cocoa-puff typically plants like red soil with lots of iron and nitrogen."
So I agree I am flying blind here, just trying make sure I get enough volcano dust and iron into the soil, if I can, without having to compost (because my friend is supposed to be here this afternoon).

There are some good rules of thumb and general potting mix standard practices that will likely serve you well, at least generally, but dialing it in to maximize the plants' potential takes either more knowledge of what you have vs what you need, or lots of rounds of trial and error, documenting successes and failures to help adjust future rounds.

Sí. Gracias.

A good organic mix with sufficient aeration and some live worms tunneling around can go a long way to a generally good harvest even if it's not the absolute ideal. Most of the micronutrients are needed in very small, trace amounts so as long as they are present the plant should have what it needs.

Ok, I have never added live worms to pots. Would you add live worms to that unknown-soil+rice-hulls mix?

Most of the minerals we add to our mixes are very long lasting inputs which also take long periods of time to even start breaking down. That's one of the reason for letting an organic mix cook for a while (another being the initial heat that gets produced as the microbes begin their work).

Sí. One website suggested blood meal for the iron, but I don't have time to compost.
Back in the states I could get iron pellets (for the lawn), but I have not seen anything like that here.
If I have to I can order a small bag off of Amazon, but probably we can find iron pellets here.

So, amending them on some periodic basis, yearly in your case, is meant to supply another reserve of them that can replace the amount previously broken down and used. This is one reason why many organic soils get better with each subsequent round. Initially most of the mineral inputs are locked away in their rock form and not available to the plant, but over time the microbes release some of it and then more and more becomes available which allows for uptake from the plants. During the first round there is not much available but by reusing that soil, more is instantly available at the start of the next round than was at the start of the first.

So, most of whatever you add probably won't be used by the plants this round but you are really preparing for future rounds. Topdressing can help, but usually adding the booster into the mix for the next round is how its done unless you are doing a no-till approach.

Ok. Thanks.

Don't know but probably doesn't matter all that much as long as it's enough. Coot does 1/2 to 1 cup of many of his mineral inputs per 7 gallons of mix with the exception if basalt which is 4 times as much if I recall properly.

Ok, thank you for that! That is very helpful! I will check out his formula again.
I do seem to remember that he uses a lot of rock dust.
Thanks!

You can topdress to your hearts content with the worm castings. Just be sure to mulch over them to keep them from drying out. Or you can add some to your mix. They tend to be dense so be sure to add aeration along with the castings.

Ok, thanks.

And, a good organic soil should provide most of what's needed. Some growers use epsom salts to add magnesium. I don't because I don't like to add salts to my soils, but there are ways to do it. I'd start with the mix as is and see if you even have to add additional inputs. The plants leaves will generally tell you if there is a problem.

Yeah, that's true, although cocoa-puff plants are usually a very light green color to start with. But you are right, they should show signs of any kind of deficiency.

Ok, so, that is very helpful that Coot adds a lot of rock dust! So it should be ok.
My thought at the moment is to start with 4 parts of this mix, and add maybe 1 part coco coir (to loosen the soil).
Then I need to review Coot, and mix in Coot-level quantities of rock dust and zeolyte, plus a little Leonardite / Humic Acid, and a little activated carbon. And maybe a little (3-4%) worm castings
Then I guess I will look for some iron pellets, unless there is an easier or cheaper source for iron.

@Farmer Reading suggested a soil test, and if this stuff is standard fare and you can get it for $10 a big gunny sack all day long, maybe it might be worth springing for a soil sample just to get an idea.
Or alternately, maybe it is not worth that, because maybe not all the suppliers or batches are anywhere close to uniform?
I need to see how much a soil analysis costs. If it is cheap, it might could be worth it.

I don't grow autos nor have I grown at your latitude so someone else will have to offer some thoughts about those. Maybe @cbdhemp808 could say if the tropics change the maturity schedule of the plants.

Yeah, I thought @cbdhemp808 and some of the other cannabis experts could help me know how things go in the tropics.
@Emilya and @Jon and @bluter and some others were having a big discussion about pistils on one of Emmie's threads, and it did not seem like the place to clog up her thread with that, so I thought I would ask here. I am way too new to know. The only thing I can imagine is that we are just heading into summer, and maybe the autos sense the lengthening days, and the warmer weather, and decided this is not the Artcic Circle, and maybe part of the Photoperiod took over and said, "Hey! Wait a minute! We have more time!"????
Dunno. Plants doing what they want? Kind of reminds me of a Stephen King novel??? (Hahaha, oy!!!!)

 

[Emilya Green]

but I don't have time to compost.

These are the words that will haunt you as you get 2/3 into this grow and the soil runs out of juice. Do you have time to spend 3 months on a failed grow? My advice is to use nutes for now and get a good compost into this soil mix. I trust the subcool mix of elements to produce a great supersoil, but I do not believe in just heading into a grow without the composting being done, expecting and trusting the soil get you through now and to be better next time. And as far as modifying the proven recipes, such as not adding Epsom Salt, I fear you might be going down the wrong road with that too. Did you know that Epsom Salt is not really a salt? It is magnesium sulfate and it is closer to being a metal than a salt. Most importantly, it is greatly needed in a cannabis soil. Subcool, Coot and The Rev and others were/are very well educated in these matters and put a lot of work into creating the recipes that they did, in the exact proportions that their repeated experiments shown them to be best for cannabis growing. They did the work so that you, without the training and experience that they had, don't have to reinvent the wheel. Take your time, follow the recipes, and do what you need to do to get through this time, until you have everything right with the new soil. Then, move forward. Organics isn't easy in a best case scenario, but it is close to impossible without first doing the prep work.

 

[CBDMed]

These are the words that will haunt you as you get 2/3 into this grow and the soil runs out of juice. Do you have time to spend 3 months on a failed grow?

Sorry, @Emilya ! Maybe I did not explain well that this is an off-topic question, as I am looking to grow a plant OTHER than our beloved cannabis with this soil?
This is more for a perennial plant that grows for many years, and turns into a perennial bush.
(Maybe is there a better thread for that?)

To explain, for this NON-cannabis plant, one source suggested blood meal for iron, but that requires composting, and I will need to put the plants in some kind of soil this afternoon (so I truly don't have time for composting). Sorry if I was not clear!

I know I do not know enough to make cannabis soil! And I don't have enough knowledge to make soil for non-cannabis plants, either! But I need to put them in something this afternoon, so I am just trying to get their rock dust, iron, and nitrogen needs met.
(Nitrogen is easy, and rock dust is easy. Iron, I dunno. I may have to look for pellets, and topdress.)

My advice is to use nutes for now and get a good compost into this soil mix. I trust the subcool mix of elements to produce a great supersoil, but I do not believe in just heading into a grow without the composting being done, expecting and trusting the soil get you through now and to be better next time.

Yeah, again, sorry if I was not clear. This is NOT for our beloved cannabis! This is for another plant.
I am using the supersoil for the cannabis plants.

And as far as modifying the proven recipes, such as not adding Epsom Salt, I fear you might be going down the wrong road with that too. Did you know that Epsom Salt is not really a salt? It is magnesium sulfate and it is closer to being a metal than a salt. Most importantly, it is greatly needed in a cannabis soil.

That is great information! And very good to know! Thank you for sharing that!
I was hesitating about Epsom salts, and now I don't need to!

Subcool, Coot and The Rev and others were/are very well educated in these matters and put a lot of work into creating the recipes that they did, in the exact proportions that their repeated experiments shown them to be best for cannabis growing. They did the work so that you, without the training and experience that they had, don't have to reinvent the wheel. Take your time, follow the recipes, and do what you need to do to get through this time, until you have everything right with the new soil. Then, move forward. Organics isn't easy in a best case scenario, but it is close to impossible without first doing the prep work.

Yes, I absolutely agree! And I glad to be using subcool's in my cannabis pots! But this is for a different plant that has different requirements (which I also don't know much about).
Sorry if I was not clear enough that this is OT.

 

[Azimuth]

Ok, I have never added live worms to pots. Would you add live worms to that unknown-soil+rice-hulls mix?

You bet. And as long as there is enough organic matter in the mix they will feed and breed and you'll end up with more than you started with.

The only thing I can imagine is that we are just heading into summer, and maybe the autos sense the lengthening days, and the warmer weather, and decided this is not the Artcic Circle, and maybe part of the Photoperiod took over and said, "Hey! Wait a minute! We have more time!"????

Autos shouldn't be affected by the light/dark cycle. That's the whole point of autos. But, they are created by mixing in a certain percentage of ruderalis genetics into the mix so maybe depending on the rest of the mix flowering time could be affected? Don't really know. Maybe they all flower regardless of light cycle but some trigger sooner than others? But I would think any particular auto plant wouldn't respond to more or less light itself.

 

[Azimuth]

Growers in your area have been growing NON-cannabis plants in large fields for a long time and I doubt they have been amending those fields to the extent being proposed. Now maybe the plant harvests can be improved with some sort of designer mix but I'll bet they grow just fine using your local soils.

 

[Emilya Green]

Sorry, @Emilya ! Maybe I did not explain well that this is an off-topic question, as I am looking to grow a plant OTHER than our beloved cannabis with this soil?
This is more for a perennial plant that grows for many years, and turns into a perennial bush.
(Maybe is there a better thread for that?)

To explain, for this NON-cannabis plant, one source suggested blood meal for iron, but that requires composting, and I will need to put the plants in some kind of soil this afternoon (so I truly don't have time for composting). Sorry if I was not clear!

I know I do not know enough to make cannabis soil! And I don't have enough knowledge to make soil for non-cannabis plants, either! But I need to put them in something this afternoon, so I am just trying to get their rock dust, iron, and nitrogen needs met.
(Nitrogen is easy, and rock dust is easy. Iron, I dunno. I may have to look for pellets, and topdress.)



Yeah, again, sorry if I was not clear. This is NOT for our beloved cannabis! This is for another plant.
I am using the supersoil for the cannabis plants.



That is great information! And very good to know! Thank you for sharing that!
I was hesitating about Epsom salts, and now I don't need to!



Yes, I absolutely agree! And I glad to be using subcool's in my cannabis pots! But this is for a different plant that has different requirements (which I also don't know much about).
Sorry if I was not clear enough that this is OT.

phew!!! I am relieved. Sorry I have not been keeping up.

 

[CBDMed]

You bet. And as long as there is enough organic matter in the mix they will feed and breed and you'll end up with more than you started with.

Ok, I will add some to the pots! Thank you, @Azimuth !

Autos shouldn't be affected by the light/dark cycle. That's the whole point of autos.

Hahahaha!

But, they are created by mixing in a certain percentage of ruderalis genetics into the mix so maybe depending on the rest of the mix flowering time could be affected? Don't really know. Maybe they all flower regardless of light cycle but some trigger sooner than others? But I would think any particular auto plant wouldn't respond to more or less light itself.

Yeah, I am not sure what is happening. I have been waiting for them to finish up and they just haven't. They have more pistils now than a month ago. All I can figure is that they are responding to summer, but that could be way off.

 

[CBDMed]

Growers in your area have been growing NON-cannabis plants in large fields for a long time and I doubt they have been amending those fields to the extent being proposed. Now maybe the plant harvests can be improved with some sort of designer mix but I'll bet they grow just fine using your local soils.

Yeah, that's probably exactly right. The plants seem to be very adaptable, so as long as they get rock dust, humus, iron, and nitrogen, they should be just fine.
We shall try it!

 

[CBDMed]

phew!!! I am relieved. Sorry I have not been keeping up.

No worries, @Emilya ! You seem super busy!
Thanks for all of your help.
I will try to post what is relevant on your threads, to make it easier for you.
Thank you for all of your help!

 

[CBDMed]

Or, you could weigh it and mix it thoroughly with the same weight of brown sugar, put it back in that jar with a sugar cap and make yourself some FAA (Fish Amino Acid).  Really good stuff.

Whichever way you go, and I see you went the water route, leave an air space of 1/3 in the jar.

If you stay with the water ferment, make sure you add some worm castings or leaf mold soil in with the fish. I did some experiments that showed adding castings was much more effective than straight rain water.

Hi @Azimuth .
I had to heat the panela (brown sugar) to get it to dissolve. Then I poured it over the fish guts, with maybe 1 heaping teaspoon of wc.
I tried putting panela on as a cap, but it just sank.
So basically I have fish guts sitting in sugar-water without a cap.
Is it worth maintaining the experiment?
Or what should I do?
Put a lid on it and check it again in six months?
How will I know if it worked without the sugar cap??

 

[Azimuth]

Hi @Azimuth .
I had to heat the panela (brown sugar) to get it to dissolve. Then I poured it over the fish guts, with maybe 1 heaping teaspoon of wc.
I tried putting panela on as a cap, but it just sank.
So basically I have fish guts sitting in sugar-water without a cap.
Is it worth maintaining the experiment?
Or what should I do?
Put a lid on it and check it again in six months?
How will I know if it worked without the sugar cap??

I have no idea. The way the granulated sugar works is it pulls liquid out of the fish/plant material osmotically, meaning it pulls the goodies from inside the cells through the cell walls. But the sugar needs to start out dry for that to work. What you've got there, I have no clue.

Maybe you're making a fish wine. Be sure to let us all know how it tastes when you try it!

 

[CBDMed]

I have no idea. The way the granulated sugar works is it pulls liquid out of the fish/plant material osmotically, meaning it pulls the goodies from inside the cells through the cell walls. But the sugar needs to start out dry for that to work. What you've got there, I have no clue.

Maybe you're making a fish wine. Be sure to let us all know how it tastes when you try it!

Hahahahahahahaha!
Um.... isn't it fish wine, for fish?? Haha.
I am sure I will NEVER try it!
Well, I guess I can wait six months, and try it on some plants in veg, 1:1000? Hahahaha! (Hopefully it does not kill them!)

 

[Azimuth]

Yeah, you're on your own with this one. Good luck!

 

[CBDMed]

Yeah, you're on your own with this one. Good luck!

Hahaha, yeah, next time it will just be plain fish guts!
We are hoping to get some more trout next week.
What is the application rate if I just use straight trout guts, and a teaspoon of wc?
Thanks.

 

[Azimuth]

The native Americans taught the settlers how they buried whole fish underneath their corn seed to help feed the plant through its growth cycle. But are you asking if you can just apply the fish guts in some percentage straight to your plants?

Ahhh, no. Don't do that.

 

[CBDMed]

The native Americans taught the settlers how they buried whole fish underneath their corn seed to help feed the plant through its growth cycle. But are you asking if you can just apply the fish guts in some percentage straight to your plants?

Ahhh, no. Don't do that.

Hahaha! No, sorry!
We can buy trout when we go into the small town here. They sell three farmed trout for like $4 USD, and it is a nice change from eggs and fish (and the beef is like shoe leather here--serious mountain cows), so the trout makes a nice change.
So we can get some next week, and then I can put all three heads and guts in liter jars, and just put a teaspoon of wc in each one, cover with water that has set out for 24 hours, and then cap her, and put her in the shade for six months.
Then each time we do fish (maybe once a month or two?) we can start a new jar, and set it aside for six months. But it would be great to know the application rate (1:200??), so I can mark the jar at the time the ferment is made.
So are there recommended ratios for application?
Sorry, I was scrolling back to look and see if you already gave me the ratio. I am not real sure how to work the advanced search.

 

[cbdhemp808]

I don't grow autos nor have I grown at your latitude so someone else will have to offer some thoughts about those. Maybe @cbdhemp808 could say if the tropics change the maturity schedule of the plants.

Autos are autos, so they are going to progress through their lifecycle, and flower roughly at the same time, regardless of location. That's my understanding. That said, of course light, temperature, water, soil all play into their development. But this probably translates more into: plant health, plant size, yield.

Here's the the rundown on my custom organic soil mix for my outdoor greenhouse grow in the tropics:

• compost soil
• fine volcanic cinder (mostly black cinder)
• coco coir (high-quality, pre-washed)
• perlite
• fresh worm compost from our worm bins

Organic nutrients from the company, Down to Earth*...

• bat guano (N)
• seabird guano (Ca, P)
• dolomite lime (Ca, Mg)
• oyster shell powder (Ca)
• greensand (K, Fe, Si)
• gypsum (Ca, S)
• potassium sulfate (K, S).

*all checked for low heavy metal content

I also use Mycos root booster "in the hole" when I transplant into a larger pot.

That's it, and I am getting very good results. hit me up for amounts/ratios if you are curious. the amounts I'm using now produce good yields and decent size buds – I may make some adjustments over time to maximize.

I also water with a readily available, high-N liquid fert, which you can read about here, here, here, here. It has an N-P-K value of about 11-2-4. The N is mainly from ammonia compounds. The fert also contains Na, Cl, S, Mg, Ca. Plants love it. The fert is added to a 5 gal bucket of rainwater and stirred clockwise vigorously, then counter-stirred to oxygenate, and then poured into 2 gal bucket to further oxygenate.

 

[Azimuth]

Oh, OK. Good.

The fish water ferments (Jadam style) are applied at a rate of 1:100 up to 1:1,000.

They are stronger than the plant extracts that often start out at 1:20 and so need to be diluted more.

 

[Azimuth]

Autos are autos, so they are going to progress through their lifecycle, and flower roughly at the same time, regardless of location. That's my understanding. That said, of course light, temperature, water, soil all play into their development. But this probably translates more into: plant health, plant size, yield.

Here's the the rundown on my custom organic soil mix for my outdoor greenhouse grow in the tropics:

• compost soil
• fine volcanic cinder (mostly black cinder)
• coco coir (high-quality, pre-washed)
• perlite
• fresh worm compost from our worm bins

Organic nutrients from the company, Down to Earth*...

• bat guano (N)
• seabird guano (Ca, P)
• dolomite lime (Ca, Mg)
• oyster shell powder (Ca)
• greensand (K, Fe, Si)
• gypsum (Ca, S)
• potassium sulfate (K, S).

*all checked for low heavy metal content

I also use Mycos root booster "in the hole" when I transplant into a larger pot.

that's it, and I am getting very good results. hit me up for amounts/ratios if you are curious. the amounts I'm using now produce good yields and decent size buds – I may make some adjustments over time to maximize.

Hey cbdh,

I'm curious as to the amounts/ratios. I make my own mix as well and am always curious about others' mix, especially the amount of castings you use.

 

[CBDMed]

Autos are autos, so they are going to progress through their lifecycle, and flower roughly at the same time, regardless of location. That's my understanding. That said, of course light, temperature, water, soil all play into their development. But this probably translates more into: plant health, plant size, yield.

Here's the the rundown on my custom organic soil mix for my outdoor greenhouse grow in the tropics:

• compost soil
• fine volcanic cinder (mostly black cinder)
• coco coir (high-quality, pre-washed)
• perlite
• fresh worm compost from our worm bins

Organic nutrients from the company, Down to Earth*...

• bat guano (N)
• seabird guano (Ca, P)
• dolomite lime (Ca, Mg)
• oyster shell powder (Ca)
• greensand (K, Fe, Si)
• gypsum (Ca, S)
• potassium sulfate (K, S).

*all checked for low heavy metal content

I also use Mycos root booster "in the hole" when I transplant into a larger pot.

that's it, and I am getting very good results. hit me up for amounts/ratios if you are curious. the amounts I'm using now produce good yields and decent size buds – I may make some adjustments over time to maximize.

@cbdhemp808 , I am pretty new, so my knowledge level is pretty low, but I recognize most of those components from Subcool's Supersoil.
That looks like super good stuff!!

About my autos, maybe I should write the breeders?
I think Barney's Farm is a sponsor, so it should be ok to post the strain data from their website.
It says seed to harvest in 65-70 days, so maybe I should ask them why I am still growing colas at 93 days or whatever?

LSD AUTO™ Cannabis Seeds Strain Specifications​

Type: Feminised
Photoperiod: Autoflowering
Characterisics: .
Genetics: LSD x Super Magnum Auto
Effect: Social, Vivid and Psychedelic Body High, Euphoric, Uplifted, Calming, Relaxed
Outdoor Yield (g): up to 400 per plant
Indoor Yield (g):up to 650 gr/m²
Autoflowering Harvest Time From Seed (days): 65 - 70
Height (cm): 90-120cm
Height Indoor (cm): 90cm
Height Outdoor (cm): 120cm
Height: Medium
Indica %: 70%
Sativa %: 30%
Indica/Sativa: Mostly Indica
Taste: Earthy Chestnut, Mango, Citrus, Sweet & Sour
Aroma: Musky, Earthy Flower, Herbal, Skunky, Pungent