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Nitrogen deficient in early flower

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
Hi guys I was hoping to pull some heads together here to try to get an idea of why my plants are N deficient. So to cover the basics...

Soil Black Gold Natural and Organic (0-05-0-0)
LIght: 400w HPS air cooled 16-18" above canopy, switched from MH on 6/3
Temperatures: high 60s to mid 70s, RH 20-30%
Nutrients: FloraNova Grow, Bloom, Humboltd's Own Crystal Burst, GH Armor Si, some organic nutrients my neighbor gave me with unknown constitution (supposedly kelp, alfalfa, bone meal, myco, and bat guano)
pH: All water and solutions pH'd to 6.5 and runoff at 6 to 6.5
Strains: Blackberry Kush, Platinum Girl Scout Cookies, Frankenberry
Plant Age: Most between 5 and 6 weeks from seed, all planted 4/30
Light schedule: 11/13 from seed
Weeks in flower: 1-2, a week or so into stretch
Container size: 1 gallon
Roots: Transplanted 5/9, checked a week or two ago and are nice and healthy

Anyway I think that's all the basic information needed. A little bit more detail about the feedings though...

Three days ago I watered with the organic mix my neighbor gave me. He had little baggies that looked like they had about 3 or 4 tablespoons of the mix in them each and he said he'd normally mix them into 5 gallons, so I used probably about 1-2 table spoons for a gallon. I can't really seem to get much information out of him on the constitution of it, some kind of secret formula or something. So anyway I'm probably just not going to use it anymore, but just trying to include the history.

About three or four days before that, I fed them with Flora Nova Bloom 5 mL/G and Crystal Burst at 5 mL/G with 2.5 mL/G of Armor Si. This was when I was first starting to see symptoms so I expected them to go away.

They've persisted since then through both feedings, so this time around I did...

7.25 mL/G Flora Nova Bloom
2.5 mL/G Flora Nova Grow
5 mL/G Crystal Burst
5 mL/G Armor Si

I am hoping that the added N content from the Grow mix helps but doesn't disrupt the proportions needed for flowering too much. if they don't improve in a few days though I am not sure what else to try, except to leach the soil to treat possible lockouts.

I don't think I have ever had a Nitrogen deficiency before and I question whether or not my Bloom nutrients are still good. They seem a lot more watery than I remember from last year, and when I mixed them the first time around I couldn't shake the bottle up very well because the cap leaks. I saw a bunch of weird flaky material at the bottom of the jug. THIS time around I put the bottle in a grocery bag and shook the ever loving crap out of it, and saw no flaky material at the bottom of the jug. So I am kind of hoping that the first time I fed with the Bloom nutrients it just wasn't mixed up well enough or they're going bad or something, and that I just didn't use enough of my friend's organic mix--as far as I know bat guano isn't that much more nitrogen rich than my bloom mix. I haven't been using very much nutrients prior to this, I think maybe two or three feedings in general and all at very low levels, so I don't think it could be salt buildup locking me out but I really don't have enough experience to say one way or another.

Beyond that, I don't know how they recover from N deficiency. Do the affected leaves stay yellow or will I notice them improve, like basically how do I know when it has stopped?

I am kind of guessing that the stretch increased the plant's nitrogen needs and am really hoping it's just lacking and there's not some kind of lockout going on. They seem pretty healthy otherwise, the red stems have persisted throughout so I think they're just genetic or due to the colder temperatures but they seem unrelated. I've also had weird hooked leaves as if there has been too much N, so that's kind of contradicting... But I did notice the plants that have stretched the least also seem the least affected.

Anyway sorry I know that's a lot to read. I am basically waiting to see if the heavier feed helps and trying to understand what happened. Like I said I haven't ever had a nitrogen problem before so it's kind of unexpected.

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dirt mcgert

Nug of the Month: Dec 2016 - Creme de la Creme Photos: Nov 2016
I would continue to use the grow. I used the Lucas formula when I first started growing(gh miro, gh bloom) if I recall the gh bloom had 0 for n but the micro had enough n to get through the grow. Hope this helps
 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
I would continue to use the grow. I used the Lucas formula when I first started growing(gh miro, gh bloom) if I recall the gh bloom had 0 for n but the micro had enough n to get through the grow. Hope this helps

I think this might be part of the problem, I switched straight from Grow formula to Bloom. I don't know if I quite got the gist of the Lucas formula, but it mixes the Micro and Bloom formula? For the entire cycle?
 

dirt mcgert

Nug of the Month: Dec 2016 - Creme de la Creme Photos: Nov 2016
I believe (I could be wrong I haven't used bottles in a while) that gh micro,grow ,and bloom are used all together as a 3 part nutrient set Gh has a feeding chart on their website that might be some help.
 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
I believe (I could be wrong I haven't used bottles in a while) that gh micro,grow ,and bloom are used all together as a 3 part nutrient set Gh has a feeding chart on their website that might be some help.

Ah I see I always wondered why people referred to it as 3 part. I think the Flora Nova must be different because it's just two parts.
 

dirt mcgert

Nug of the Month: Dec 2016 - Creme de la Creme Photos: Nov 2016
Ah I see I always wondered why people referred to it as 3 part. I think the Flora Nova must be different because it's just two parts.
Sorry, the flora is 3part and the flora nova is 2 part. I just checked the feeding schedule and it says to stop the grow at the 2 week 12/12 mark. The bloom has n in it so not sure why the lower yellowing so soon. Maybe your could try upping the bloom a little more, it might help giving it a little more n without having to use the grow. Just a suggestion.
 

Emilya

Member of the Month: Mar 2019 - Grow Journal of the Month: Jan 2020, Aug 2021
Your plants appear to be starving...

Their needs have also changed now that you have started flowering... they no longer consider N to be their main nutrient! Now the name of the game is to build buds and change growth tips into flowers. This puts a huge potassium and phosphorus load on your plants, as well as magnesium and calcium.

You are on the right track, but you need to feed these plants. Forget your neighbor's secret mix... look at your plants. He is obviously on the wrong track. Follow the instructions on your new nutrients to the letter, based on the age of your plants. Feed them on the heavy side... they need it. Make sure you adjust your pH for SOIL at 6.5, not the 5.8 suggested for hydro.

Then, look seriously into getting the proper nutes. GH... what does that stand for? General Hydroponics. They make hydro nutes. Sure, they say they can be used in soil... but it is the best you can do for your plants? Not even close.
 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
Your plants appear to be starving...

Their needs have also changed now that you have started flowering... they no longer consider N to be their main nutrient! Now the name of the game is to build buds and change growth tips into flowers. This puts a huge potassium and phosphorus load on your plants, as well as magnesium and calcium.

You are on the right track, but you need to feed these plants. Forget your neighbor's secret mix... look at your plants. He is obviously on the wrong track. Follow the instructions on your new nutrients to the letter, based on the age of your plants. Feed them on the heavy side... they need it. Make sure you adjust your pH for SOIL at 6.5, not the 5.8 suggested for hydro.

Then, look seriously into getting the proper nutes. GH... what does that stand for? General Hydroponics. They make hydro nutes. Sure, they say they can be used in soil... but it is the best you can do for your plants? Not even close.

So are you saying they're NOT nitrogen deficient?

What line of bottled nutrients would you suggest?
 

Emilya

Member of the Month: Mar 2019 - Grow Journal of the Month: Jan 2020, Aug 2021
So are you saying they're NOT nitrogen deficient?

What line of bottled nutrients would you suggest?

No. Nitrogen deficiency is something that happens generally to vegging plants. They are deficient in their macro nutrients, as clearly shown by the upwardly progressing yellowing, but now it is more complex than just N, now they also need P and K in amounts as large as they once needed the N.

There are many good lines of soil nutrients out there. I used Fox Farms entire line for several years, but I hesitate to endorse any of the commercial nutrient companies now, because as soon as I do, someone else will have a different opinion and a different line to suggest to you, and you will end up possibly confused. I know I was... and for years I was on the quest as to what was the best nutrient line.. or at least the best that I could afford. Here is another one, Jack's Classic from JR Peters. This is a professional grade synthetic nutrient shipped in powder form. It is very cheap, and very effective, used by professionals all over the world. You do have lots of good options, but it is up to you to figure out what is best for you and your growing style. For me, having given up on synthetic nutes, I make my own naturally and organically.
 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
No. Nitrogen deficiency is something that happens generally to vegging plants. They are deficient in their macro nutrients, as clearly shown by the upwardly progressing yellowing, but now it is more complex than just N, now they also need P and K in amounts as large as they once needed the N.

There are many good lines of soil nutrients out there. I used Fox Farms entire line for several years, but I hesitate to endorse any of the commercial nutrient companies now, because as soon as I do, someone else will have a different opinion and a different line to suggest to you, and you will end up possibly confused. I know I was... and for years I was on the quest as to what was the best nutrient line.. or at least the best that I could afford. Here is another one, Jack's Classic from JR Peters. This is a professional grade synthetic nutrient shipped in powder form. It is very cheap, and very effective, used by professionals all over the world. You do have lots of good options, but it is up to you to figure out what is best for you and your growing style. For me, having given up on synthetic nutes, I make my own naturally and organically.

Well I certainly haven't been skimping on the P and K, I have been giving them Crystal Burst which is 0-15-15 with every feeding plus the levels in the Bloom formula. Flora Nova also has a wide range of the macro nutrients at about 2% ranges.

I never had problems with it on my last grow, and that was with much bigger plants and less light even. Maybe I just need to use a bigger concentration because the heavy feed I detailed giving them didn't even slightly burn the tips.
 

Emilya

Member of the Month: Mar 2019 - Grow Journal of the Month: Jan 2020, Aug 2021
Well I certainly haven't been skimping on the P and K, I have been giving them Crystal Burst which is 0-15-15 with every feeding plus the levels in the Bloom formula. Flora Nova also has a wide range of the macro nutrients at about 2% ranges.

I never had problems with it on my last grow, and that was with much bigger plants and less light even. Maybe I just need to use a bigger concentration because the heavy feed I detailed giving them didn't even slightly burn the tips.

that combined with the problem that GH nutes are chelated to break their salt bonds at 5.8 pH, and not 6.5 as needed in soil. They say their stuff can be used in soil, but there are many people like you having problems using the stuff in soil... I tried it once too as I wrapped up my excursion into hydro and had extra GH stuff sitting around. And yes, I think I too would try upping the concentration a bit to solve this problem... you know what to look for. If the tips start burning, back it down again, but I think you are sort of behind on things at the moment and are going to have to play catch up with the nutes for several waterings to get things back in check. You can fix this... just read the plant and what it is telling you and react to that.
 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
that combined with the problem that GH nutes are chelated to break their salt bonds at 5.8 pH, and not 6.5 as needed in soil. They say their stuff can be used in soil, but there are many people like you having problems using the stuff in soil... I tried it once too as I wrapped up my excursion into hydro and had extra GH stuff sitting around. And yes, I think I too would try upping the concentration a bit to solve this problem... you know what to look for. If the tips start burning, back it down again, but I think you are sort of behind on things at the moment and are going to have to play catch up with the nutes for several waterings to get things back in check. You can fix this... just read the plant and what it is telling you and react to that.

Were you using the Flora Nova or the regular Flora?

This is what I have
FloraNova — General Hydroponics
 

Emilya

Member of the Month: Mar 2019 - Grow Journal of the Month: Jan 2020, Aug 2021
I used Flora... so what feed chart are you using, since none of them address soil?

Also, look very carefully at any of their feed charts about what they say about pH. They insist that you must keep your pH between 5.5-6.5 to use these nutrients. This should raise a big red flag.

This is the entire problem that I told you about earlier... the range that soil pH must go through to pick up all of the macro nutrients is 6.3-6.8. Note that the upper portion of this is not covered by GH products, so for a period of time, namely, when your soil begins to dry out above the water table line, the pH is out of the range where these nutes function.
 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
I used Flora... so what feed chart are you using, since none of them address soil?

Also, look very carefully at any of their feed charts about what they say about pH. They insist that you must keep your pH between 5.5-6.5 to use these nutrients. This should raise a big red flag.

This is the entire problem that I told you about earlier... the range that soil pH must go through to pick up all of the macro nutrients is 6.3-6.8. Note that the upper portion of this is not covered by GH products, so for a period of time, namely, when your soil begins to dry out above the water table line, the pH is out of the range where these nutes function.

I use the drain to waste schedule.

I think GH specifies 5.5-6.5 in general because they believe that's the best range for plant growth. I have their pH test drops and there's a big chart that recommends the 5.5-6.5 range so I think that's just like a guideline they suggest and probably not very specific to cannabis it seems.
 

Emilya

Member of the Month: Mar 2019 - Grow Journal of the Month: Jan 2020, Aug 2021
I use the drain to waste schedule.

I think GH specifies 5.5-6.5 in general because they believe that's the best range for plant growth. I have their pH test drops and there's a big chart that recommends the 5.5-6.5 range so I think that's just like a guideline they suggest and probably not very specific to cannabis it seems.

:)

Alrighty then... I told you what I know to be true, and you are certainly free to believe what you will. I do want you to consider that I am really trying to help you here though, not lead you down some stray path. This is not the hydro store where some "expert" has your ear, and has no peer pressure to guide him in the advice he gives. If I was blowing smoke at you, someone would quickly jump on here and correct me, for the online world is quite brutal when it comes to people handing out mis-information. I want you to at least consider that you have some understandable misconceptions, because you are new at this... and that someone is really and truly trying to help you understand what is wrong.

GH does not have a secret formula for growing plants. They have not figured out a special pH range that works best for plant growth. Good hard science shows us why soil needs to drift through a 6.3-6.8 range and why hydro must stay more acidic, from 5.5-6.1. You are using the wrong stuff. Sorry. It is time to be blunt. Get online tonight and order some Jacks. It is cheap... $9 will get you enough to get through your next 2 grows. Jacks Classic and Jacks Blossom Booster. Good stuff. Do a side by side... soil nutes vs hydro nutes. Don't believe me. Do the experiment. Then you will know for sure.

Good luck no matter how you go on this...
Blessings from my garden to yours,
Emmie
 

TheFertilizer

Well-Known Member
:)

Alrighty then... I told you what I know to be true, and you are certainly free to believe what you will. I do want you to consider that I am really trying to help you here though, not lead you down some stray path. This is not the hydro store where some "expert" has your ear, and has no peer pressure to guide him in the advice he gives. If I was blowing smoke at you, someone would quickly jump on here and correct me, for the online world is quite brutal when it comes to people handing out mis-information. I want you to at least consider that you have some understandable misconceptions, because you are new at this... and that someone is really and truly trying to help you understand what is wrong.

GH does not have a secret formula for growing plants. They have not figured out a special pH range that works best for plant growth. Good hard science shows us why soil needs to drift through a 6.3-6.8 range and why hydro must stay more acidic, from 5.5-6.1. You are using the wrong stuff. Sorry. It is time to be blunt. Get online tonight and order some Jacks. It is cheap... $9 will get you enough to get through your next 2 grows. Jacks Classic and Jacks Blossom Booster. Good stuff. Do a side by side... soil nutes vs hydro nutes. Don't believe me. Do the experiment. Then you will know for sure.

Good luck no matter how you go on this...
Blessings from my garden to yours,
Emmie

I think you misinterpreted what I was saying, but I really don't want to get into an argument. Thanks for your help.
 
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