Noob's first attempt going bad, what's wrong?

[grasbauer]

Hi all,
I hope you people can help me with my first attempt on indoor growing. I planted 3x Arjan's Haze #3 (70% Sativa, 30% Indica, small sized) on the 14th, they sprouted on the 17th. The small pots have 7 cm side length. Lighting is 2x80W PL-L, about 15 cm away from the plants now (I started with half a meter, hence the thin & tall growth). Daylight temperature (18 hours) 26-28°C, nighttime 18-19, ventilation 160 m³/h duct blower running at 170V + 5W fan blowing towards the lamp, 60x60x120cm box.
The soil is Frux sowing + cutting soil, ec 0.3-0.7, ph 5.5-6.5. Tap water should be somewhere around 7-7.5 ph.
I have larger seed pots (0.7l), also 8.6l and 11l. And I have a bag of Growmix soil, ec 1.2-1.6 plus Biobizz BioGrow fertilizer.

Here is a photo from the 23rd
The second plant had problems with getting rid of its seed shell, so I manually removed it.

One from the 25th. Identical camera settings, gives you an idea about how dark the setup initially was.

And one from the 29th

Something is clearly wrong, especially with the plant in the front, which matured first. Stems are violet, and the smaller leaves are starting to get violet too. The other plants are also losing vigor. Growth has slowed down, resp. stopped for the one in front.
I've read about too much nitrogen as a possible cause, but I didn't use any fertilizer, and I don't have gauges for ph, ec values and so on.
I thought maybe I overwatered, but the soil is rather dried out now, and it doesn't seem to change anything.

I'd be happy about any ideas...

 

[BuddroGreen]

You said you didn't use fertilizer, but is there any in your soil mix?

pH could be an issue if you don't know what it is, and using tap water.

A lot of strains have purple stems, if the leaves are turning purple then it could be Phosphorus. This is Phosphorus deficiency, it would be on the lighter side for your seedlings.

 

[grasbauer]

You said you didn't use fertilizer, but is there any in your soil mix?

Little, supposedly enough in it for the first 1-2 weeks. But EC 0,3-0,7 is on the low side I guess. This would be consistent with the plant that matured most quickly starting to wither first.
The plants looked even worse today, so I just repotted them using Plagron Grow Mix (EC 1,2-1,6 - likely on the hide side for this age, hope it'll be ok).
The soil was fairly dry. The roots did not look rotten. They were stretching next to all edges of the pot.
I quickly read all about repotting I could find and hope I did it correctly in the hurry today..

 

[grasbauer]

After repotting, the plants are now recovering and started growing again!
The older leaves are still pointing a bit downwards, the new ones point up.

 

[c526]

beg borrow,but dont steal

Find a way to test the ph,or you will have troubles through out the grow.

in veg try and keep humidity up over 60% min,and a small fan helps strenthen the stems

keep lights as close as heat will allow,to reduce stretching of the stems

good luck and positive vibes



OH welcome to 420

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

It would not surprise me if it was not for a little lack of watering...

Dry soil to the point of wilting is a little to dry, should really be moist at all times but not over saturated !



I would imagine in a couple of weeks time those will need to be potted up to a larger pot size

 

[grasbauer]

It would not surprise me if it was not for a little lack of watering...

That is almost impossible, I watered regularly, probably too much. Soil was humid below the surface at all times.
I read that the surface should dry out every now and then, and that "waterlogging is fatal".
It doesn't help that over and underwatering show similar symptoms..
Every time I watered, the wilting got worse.

Here is an update on the progress. Dec 31st at night:


Dec 31st at 18:00:


Today:


The plants's older leaves are nicely spread out during most of the day, they start pointing down towards the end of the 18 hours period. I now water if the top ~1cm of soil is dry. Should I water the whole surface in those 6l pots, or is the part around the plant enough?

Anyway, I guess it was lack of nutrients, the sowing soil had less of it than even "light mix". Likely only good for the first few days, maybe a week.
We're seeing 2 different phenotypes here, aren't we? The one in the back is much different.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Mmm well those first few pic's the girls where in smaller pots & the soil looked a little dry leading to my comment off lack of water...


I see now that you have recently potted up into larger pots to which i may believe to be of 6l (liter) size ?

I myself use 6.5l (liter air pots) i know that it takes about 1.5l to 2l of water etc to fully water the pot when dry with a a good size plant like this every 2 to 3 days with given temps 26/28c & RH 50%...

A plant your size a seedling doesn't really require that much water so ya more than likely on track with over watering & that both over & under watering show the same symptoms


So ye if ya going by surface soil being dry to a depth of 1cm or 2 ya more likely over watering a plant that size... it is bad for root development... roots need to grow and go in search of water, so it is a little bit better to allow soil to dry out a lil more !

If the soil is moist 1 to 2 cm down the roots will go in search for it it is simple as...


It would be more practical to learn the weight of ya pot when dry to when watered to plant size... little plants drink less bigger plants drink more over a given period of time & what ever temperature


Learn & adapt to ya plants.



Ya well i often make a reply to info given or by pic as these may paint a thousand words to what i may understand from what ever info given or perceived... some times i get response others not !

But it is better to reply with new info to help solve problems as it may gain new insights !



Ya know in real life i'm just some guy, i've been working in horticulture for some 20 years & i am just trying to pass on some practical advice as best as i can or at best reply to question at hand with what ever information is given to me to help or assist in the matter !

 

[grasbauer]

Very nice pics! Well, this is not only my first attempt on Cannabis growing, but my first attempt on growing anything at all. Very hard to estimate how much I should water.. as the small plants still need so little of it.
The pots are 6l, yes. I also have round 9l and 12l, though these cannot be positioned as in these pictures right below the CFL tubes, as only 2 will fit in a line in the box. I only have about 95 cm of space from bottom to top in there (1,20m high box minus tube fan etc). I think I will repot to the 9l ones at some point, they're not as high because of the round shape.

Below another image from today. The one in the back is way larger than the other ones and grows more quickly too I think. Darker leaf color as well.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

The girls look happy today & makes me smile to see that


I'll do my best to offer some practical info as best as i can, also i've briefly looked over past replies & seen some stuff i may have ask some questions on !

Lets go back to watering...

One of my own from awhile ago.

Those pots are more likely roughly the same size as you started in, i would water those either once or twice a week being a good soak or in till run off occurs for a plant that size every few days should be alright.

I do check by lifting the pot to gauge weight when well watered & when dry as it helps build up a physical means over time to gauge when to water, i also like to look at the bottom of the pot where the drainage holes are as you can see the soil/compost & should be able to see colour difference between moist soil and dry soil also it may suggest how much moist/water is till down in the base of the pot.

A seed from sprout or rooted clone will take about 2 weeks to spread its roots well in a pot of that size !

Now ya in a larger pot with more soil & can hold more water a plant of that size like the above will more than likely only going to need a watering once a week...

Keep a check on weight of pot when watered to dry & this helps build up a time frame on when to water... this changes with plant size and temperature !

So it is a little learning curve for ya



You mention some extra colour in girls a bit more perky green well that is extra nitrogen nutrients being used by the girls... i noticed some info ya written, ya bag of compost/soil had an EC rating 1.2 or 1.6 i think ? that suggest it has nutrients available in the compost for a period of a few weeks at best...

You should start seeing improved plant vigor soon aka growth


On a side note -I'm not saying it is gonna happen, but just pointing out !

EC 1.2 or 1.6 relates to strength of nutrients in the compost/soil ! on a off chance it might cause a little nutrient burn on such a young plant ? we're just gonna ride this out & if any think happens i suspect it will be in a few days time... i'll help sort it out, if or when it happens ?

2. Ya got more than one strain on the go, right back to EC levels 'n' nutrients... not all strains respond the same to EC or given amount of nutrients as some may like high amounts of nutrients whilst others like less, so you could experience slight difference's in plant health between strains at some point !


Sorry just thinking ahead beyond a normal response on this one, bit like being one step ahead...



Right onto some other stuff - some questions...

1. Mmm i'm not sure about your choice of light bulb PL -L 80w i'm really not sure what that is ? i don't suppose ya know what colour spectrum it is ?

Spectrum of light just a thing about growing whilst in veg 'n' flowering !

2. Just out of interest brand name of compost/soil please.

3. Biobizz nutrients ya mention, which bottle have ya got ? ( i use to use em myself)

4. Limited growing height - might have to offer suggestions in another post

 

[grasbauer]

Those pots are more likely roughly the same size as you started in, i would water those either once or twice a week

See, I watered them almost every day at first. I also didn't put enough soil into the already small pots, so when it was compacted by watering, they were only 2/3 filled. Interesting to see though how large they can get in that pot size.

i also like to look at the bottom of the pot where the drainage holes are

I'm reluctant to water the 6l pots until water starts to drain, only have been watering near the center. Do you think I should soak the whole soil?

bag of compost/soil had an EC rating 1.2 or 1.6 i think ?

Possible conclusion: The sowing seed in the small pots had only 0.3-0.7! I guess that was the problem, together with overwatering?

on a off chance it might cause a little nutrient burn on such a young plant ?

I thought I had seen some of it yesterday. Some time after I took the photo, leaves started started to curl up, and the largest ones of the plant in the back got a bit of a greyish texture. It's mostly gone away now though.

Ya got more than one strain on the go

All 3 are Arjan's Haze #3 (Laos X Haze), supposedly a Haze strain with very Indica-like growth.
They are just two different phenotypes. The one in the back is much larger. I've made a photo from further away and cropped it so you can better see the size difference.
You might not be familiar with the soil brands as I'm from Germany. The sowing soil is "Frux" with EC 0.3-0.7. I planted the whole thing into the new pot without shaking or rinsing anything off, so there is now little nutrients in the center and EC 1.2-1.6 from the Plagron Growmix around it.
Fertilizer is Biobizz Biogrow. I first used it when repotting last Monday. I read it takes 1-2 weeks to become active, which I didn't know. People weren't thinking ahead, thought "nothing happens" and killed their plants... I've used it another time yesterday before reading that and added some clear water, hopefully it won't be a problem.
Because of the delay, it's best to follow Biobizz' schedule, but it refers only to their Lightmix and Alllmix. Nutrient content in Plagron Growmix is in between.
I ordered a humidity meter and PH testing paper btw. I also have Biobizz Bio-Bloom for the flowering period.

1. Mmm i'm not sure about your choice of light bulb PL -L 80w i'm really not sure what that is ? i don't suppose ya know what colour spectrum it is ?

It's a chassis with 2x80W T5HO CFLs and ballast, output 12000 lumens. I've attached a pic where you can see it. I have 840 (4000K) tubes for vegetative phase and 830 (3000K) for flowering. (edit: I guess 865 would be better than 840, but it's only available in 55W)

And now the pics from today. Third one is the one with the different perspective, from farther away. That pheno in the back really is a lot larger than the others. As you can see, it has rotated itself a bit?!

 

[c526]

I'm reluctant to water the 6l pots until water starts to drain, only have been watering near the center. Do you think I should soak the whole soil?

yes,you have to get some runoff or buildups occur,if you only water the center,the roots wont search for it,everything in the pot must get wet,in soil I start watering from the outside inward.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Ye good write up & i like the style, i was stunned for a few minutes to be honest whilst i digested the information


Mmm some of those plants in the little pots where clones the ones sitting in a rectangle tray where seed grown.

1. Seed grown are about 1 to 2 weeks old.

2. Clones take about 2 weeks to root & those will be the bigger looking plant in the pic's i might say they are 3 weeks old off the top of my head since the cut/trim date.


Right the flower pot... the rim off the pot is the very top & most pots should have a lip at X given distance below the rim depending on size ! If not like your bigger square pots leave about 1/2 inch space to the rim aprox.

When filling the pot with soil/compost fill it up the lip or 5mm below the rim on very small pots to 1/2 inch to 1 inch on larger pots.


Another tip for watering, now ya got a little distance between rim of pot & soil/compost level is when watering if required is apply enough water so it wll fill remaining area/distance to rim - this should provide enough water to give a well watered status most of the time.

As c526 kindly pointed out about run off, ye i do this 9 out of 10 times... saves daily watering really most of the time, things change a little when ya have a more mature plant in flowering tho !

As c526 mentioned about build ups ! well that is in general referred to nutrient build up in the soil, bit more of minor problem with salt/chemical/synthetic based fertilizers etc

As most nutrients are off a mild to medium acidic nature...

Ya see a plant is only going use what nutrients it needs... the rest sit in the soil which might lead to a build up which may cause a PH imbalance leading to nutrient lock outs, plant problems and defs (deficiencys).

The rule of the thumb to prevent this, is to use a feed, water, feed, water regime etc



On to feeding...

Well i'll just cover this area quickly about ya compost !

Frux EC 0.3 to 0.7 seems to be a bit random with EC levels but how ever is suitable for seedlings and young plants, i should be able find this on the internet & use a language translator for additionally information if required ?

Plagron EC 1.3 to 1.6 i believe this is organic as it use's a guano from bats from what i remember !


As your soil/compost contains nutrients i would go easy with using liquid nutrients for the first few weeks or so !

Being inclined to only feed once a week for the time being at either 1/4 to 1/2 strength of application rate as suggested by the label on the bottle to be on the safe side... another rule of thumb suggestion !


Biogrow not going to be very suitable for flowering so i may suggest getting their bloom... difference in NPK value ya see and what nutrients a plant use's during the veg & flowering cycle to what it needs at these times !


As you mentioned about activation time of nutrients organic stuff takes a little longer any defs which might happen take a little while to sort out with organics compared to the salt/chemical based counter parts... ye i used Biobizz for nearly 2 years before changing to Hesi.


Mmm PH ah !

Soil/compost is in general self buffering by nature... providing the soil/compost is between PH 6 & 7 ya should not have to much problems.

I would not really bother with PH correcting organic nutrients or even bother with run off PH as run off is just the leached remains of the water poured through the growing medium.

Some of this PH stuff, well lets call it a big grey area... a lot of hearsay, decades of this & that confusing stuff ?

I'm a gardener by trade for 20 years, i grow veg & all sorts of flowers many thousands of them in my time but have never once PH corrected any water or nutrients in my professional career for such use !

Or seen it in any book ?


Very sorry about that rant, it is rather large pet hate thing for me


Mmm ye slowly coming to an end perhaps the mj flapjacks have made me waffle more than normal


I wanted to cover this so many words ago but got into the idea of a slow trickle of info, step by step thing i must admit there are so many areas to cover...


Yes it was about the bulbs & light spectrum stuff.



I'm sorry i can not do the whole 5000 word bit right now, those darn flapjacks are kicking in... it's music time for me

 

[grasbauer]

If not like your bigger square pots leave about 1/2 inch space to the rim aprox.

Yes, I left a large rim because I expect to repot one more time anyway.

Another tip for watering, now ya got a little distance between rim of pot & soil/compost level is when watering if required is apply enough water so it wll fill remaining area/distance to rim

Oh, that's a lot of water. I guess a lot 2-3 a week is better than a little each day then.

plants, i should be able find this on the internet & use a language translator for additionally information if required

I can translate the available info for you, but it really doesn't say all that much, just that it's for seedlings with mild nutrient levels.
The Plagron soil contains worm castings, perlite and several forms of peat.
Thanks for all the info!

Biogrow not going to be very suitable for flowering so i may suggest getting their bloom

I wrote that I also have their flowering fertilizer.

I read about the ph buffering, just trying not do anything wrong. Well, not more wrong than I already did. ;P

Had to look up what flapjacks are, alright, sounds tasty.

The plants had some fast growth today. Leaves went over the thermometer you saw in some of the pics. Starting to get fun. Hopefully the plants will stay ok. Maybe we should continue this thread in the normal grow forums?

Thanks for helping me out with this, to all who replied.

 

[Dan Ultra]

Maybe we should continue this thread in the normal grow forums?

Start a grow journal and let us follow along. That way if another problem arises down the road, you (and we) have a history of how things progressed.

 

[grasbauer]

Alright, let's continue here. Next issue came up already.

 

[Fuzzy Duck]

Alright, let's continue here. Next issue came up already.

An excellent choice