Olive oil extract update

[fookinel]

PsyCro, I have a comment about your olive oil extraction product.

You take 400 g of fresh weed, which is roughly 100 g of dry weed, and extract it with 1 liter of olive oil.
If we make CO from 100 g of dry weed we get ca 14 g of CO.
Say the amount of goodies is still 14% from your 100 g of dry weed. So you will have 14 g in 1 liter of olive oil, which makes the final concentration to be 1,4% (14 in 1000). So in 1 g suppository there would be 14 mg (0,014 g) of cannabinoids. It is too diluted. We can not use 10 gram suppositories, they would be too big.
Or am I wrong?

I'll be interested to hear from PsyCro!

I don't think you can just assume that you'll find the same components from a concentrate made using dried material in the olive oil extraction from fresh material (in other words I don't think you can directly compare the results from the two extraction methods). The drying process will lose mostly water, but it will also lose some compounds that you want to keep. This also suggests that different methods result in different compositions in the extract.

Additionally, I get the impression that PsyCro does a lot more processing than most during their extractions. Perhaps by blending the material in to the oil the difference in surface area has an effect on how much is extracted. I'm sure someone with more experience will correct me if I'm wrong...

In the end I'm still leaning toward a combination of slow cold ethanol extraction (SCET) combined with an olive oil extraction similar to this (just a slightly lower temperature) and lecithin. My hope is this would cover your bases in terms of components present in the final product, have a relatively high bioavailability, and hopefully make more efficient use of the plant material.

FYI PsyCro suggested that there's about 0.85 litres of oil after the extraction, it doesn't make a huge difference to your calculations though...

 

[SweetSue]

PsyCro, I have a comment about your olive oil extraction product.

You take 400 g of fresh weed, which is roughly 100 g of dry weed, and extract it with 1 liter of olive oil.
If we make CO from 100 g of dry weed we get ca 14 g of CO.
Say the amount of goodies is still 14% from your 100 g of dry weed. So you will have 14 g in 1 liter of olive oil, which makes the final concentration to be 1,4% (14 in 1000). So in 1 g suppository there would be 14 mg (0,014 g) of cannabinoids. It is too diluted. We can not use 10 gram suppositories, they would be too big.
Or am I wrong?

It's not an oil you'd use for suppositories Mariamlu, and despite the dilution of cannabinoids there's the additional benefit of the synergy introduced by extracting and maintaining the terpene and flavonoid compositions. To be able to get Myrcene alone in its highest concentrations has certainly been an attractive draw for me. This is another dosing option to CCO, one that PsyCro has used to great effect. I'm intrigued enough that I intend to include it in any protocol I set in the future, to gain as much benefit as I can from the entourage effect.

 

[SweetSue]

I'll be interested to hear from PsyCro!

I don't think you can just assume that you'll find the same components from a concentrate made using dried material in the olive oil extraction from fresh material (in other words I don't think you can directly compare the results from the two extraction methods). The drying process will lose mostly water, but it will also lose some compounds that you want to keep. This also suggests that different methods result in different compositions in the extract.

Additionally, I get the impression that PsyCro does a lot more processing than most during their extractions. Perhaps by blending the material in to the oil the difference in surface area has an effect on how much is extracted. I'm sure someone with more experience will correct me if I'm wrong...

In the end I'm still leaning toward a combination of slow cold ethanol extraction (SCET) combined with an olive oil extraction similar to this (just a slightly lower temperature) and lecithin. My hope is this would cover your bases in terms of components present in the final product, have a relatively high bioavailability, and hopefully make more efficient use of the plant material.

FYI PsyCro suggested that there's about 0.85 litres of oil after the extraction, it doesn't make a huge difference to your calculations though...

SCET is new to me fookinel. I'm still very new to all of this. Something to chase down today. You're thinking right where I'm headed, so please share the process you come up with and your observations with us. I've started a study hall thread (see my signature line) to chase all this information down and try to get it into some type of cohesive self-help manual for CCO. I'd welcome your participation.

 

[PsyCro]

Any idea if the vegetable oil that you use for this extraction technique matters? I don't really like heating olive oil much and would prefer to use coconut oil. Does anyone know if this will affect the potency, bioavailability, etc?

The choice of oil determines where the cannabinoids get absorbed.

Coconut oil is a medium chained fatty acid, so it gets sent straight to the liver, so if you're treating liver cancer then coconut oil is the way to go.

Otherwise you want a long-chained fatty acid (LCFA) like olive or flaxseed or grape (if the disease is estrogen based, as in some breast cancers, you want to avoid flaxseed). Long-chained fatty acids are absorbed into the lymphatic system, and so they avoid the first pass of the liver and are more bioavailable.

Liver cancer, coconut oil. Anything else use a LCFA.

Yep, LCFA for absorption via the lymphatic system, best for getting the good stuff into the bloodstream unaltered. Heating the olive oil at the temperatures used isn't a problem, you're not frying it so no worries. You can judge for yourself weather or not a MCFA is better for the liver (blood route pic):

Yes with MCFA it will go straight for the liver, but i'm not so sure that such a localized approach is even beneficial with cannabis. Could be, but also could be that overall absorption in the body as a whole would be more helpful (holistically speaking if you will). Depends on how you look at it i suppose.

Okay, so you get about 0.85L, that only reduces the original 66 days to 56 days, that's still pretty impressive from 400 g of fresh material!

What was the dosage recipe from start to finish? From memory you said your mother in law was on 15 ml of this olive oil extract a day, however, what did she start out on? How much per dose and how many doses per day? If it was less to begin with how did you increase the dose up to 15 ml/day?



I'd already looked at Skunk Pharm Research! I had another look and did find something I think is interesting

This page refers to a paper I found here which looks at the serum levels of some cannabinoids and metabolites from Dronabinol and extracts (both heated and unheated).

The interesting part is that the unheated extraction with lower cannabinoids and higher cannabinoid acids had a greater Cmax, AUC, and Tmax for THC and CBD than the heated extraction (as well as lower levels for 11-OH-THC and THC-COOH).

Having said that I'm not sure if those higher values of THC/CBD refer to the cannabinoid or the cannabinoid + cannabinoid acid (earlier in the paper THCtot = THC + THCA-A and CBDtot = CBD + CBDA). If THC/CBD in the results just refer to the cannabinoid then it means that the unheated extraction achieved a higher peak level of cannabinoids in the plasma and a greater area under the curve than the heated extraction even though it had less cannabinoids in the extract.

Unfortunately the paper didn't describe the heated and unheated extraction methods....

Dosing is ALWAYS the same, start SMALL. That's the best way to go about it so as to keep the person taking comfortable. We started with less than 0.5ml 3 times a day. Every 4 days +0.5ml until you reach a limit. My mother in law was mostly at 10ml daily. Most people can't really handle much more from my experience.
If the info is of any use.. my oil was tested at 75% conversion from THCa to THC, so yes, some acids are still there. But keep in mind i went for optimum conversion, because after 75% THC converts to CBN faster than THCa converts to THC. Any oil without THCa prolly has a good amount of CBN and is therefore more 'sleepy'. Wether or not that's better is another story.
I do however, have some experience with pretty much PURE THCa, i'll share that one day when i'm not practically falling asleep on the keyboard!

PsyCro, I have a comment about your olive oil extraction product.

You take 400 g of fresh weed, which is roughly 100 g of dry weed, and extract it with 1 liter of olive oil.
If we make CO from 100 g of dry weed we get ca 14 g of CO.
Say the amount of goodies is still 14% from your 100 g of dry weed.
So you will have 14 g in 1 liter of olive oil, which makes the final concentration to be 1,4% (14 in 1000).
So in 1 g suppository there would be 14 mg (0,014 g) of cannabinoids. It is too diluted. We can not use 10 gram suppositories, they would be too big.
Or am I wrong?

I suppose this kind of extract isn't really for suppositories, as SweetSue mentioned.. aaand i don't really have much experience there anyways. Maybe depends on how much is actually needed? For example 10 1g suppositories would be sufficient using this oil method going by the dosages i'm using here. But then how convenient is that.. probably more work and concentration then tacking several times a day.
But as i've mentioned before, a dosage of this olive oil equivalent to 1g CCO daily isn't possible. The reason as to why that is is still being debated.

 

[SAMtheAPman]

SCET is new to me fookinel. I'm still very new to all of this. Something to chase down today. You're thinking right where I'm headed, so please share the process you come up with and your observations with us. I've started a study hall thread (see my signature line) to chase all this information down and try to get it into some type of cohesive self-help manual for CCO. I'd welcome your participation.

LabRat has spoken about an SCET method here: Improved yield RSO

And to answer your competitive inhibition question... no, we're not using supplements yet. Have been looking into it and will try and track them down when I do my next supplement order.

 

[SweetSue]

LabRat has spoken about an SCET method here: Improved yield RSO

And to answer your competitive inhibition question... no, we're not using supplements yet. Have been looking into it and will try and track them down when I do my next supplement order.

Thanks Sam, I appreciate the link.

Hahaha! I got over there and realized where I was. Yes, I'm familiar with this process. Blame it on a blonde moment.

 

[fookinel]

Dosing is ALWAYS the same, start SMALL. That's the best way to go about it so as to keep the person taking comfortable. We started with less than 0.5ml 3 times a day. Every 4 days +0.5ml until you reach a limit. My mother in law was mostly at 10ml daily. Most people can't really handle much more from my experience.
If the info is of any use.. my oil was tested at 75% conversion from THCa to THC, so yes, some acids are still there. But keep in mind i went for optimum conversion, because after 75% THC converts to CBN faster than THCa converts to THC. Any oil without THCa prolly has a good amount of CBN and is therefore more 'sleepy'. Wether or not that's better is another story.
I do however, have some experience with pretty much PURE THCa, i'll share that one day when i'm not practically falling asleep on the keyboard!

Thanks for the information!

I'll be interested to hear what you have to say about pure thca when you're more awake

 

[fookinel]

SCET is new to me fookinel. I'm still very new to all of this. Something to chase down today.

SAMtheAPman beat me to it!

You're thinking right where I'm headed, so please share the process you come up with and your observations with us.

I planted an Aurora Indica seed just over a week ago and she's just developing her first real leaves I've now planted some more Aurora Indica and a Blue Blood and I'm hoping to see signs of life in the next few days. Assuming all goes well I'll then plant another Blue Blood and the Black Destroyer. As much as I'd like to plant them all and get them all going I need to be careful, so by staggering them I can hopefully catch problems on the first plant and minimise any losses. Anyway, what I'm saying is it'll be a while before I can report back with my own extracts.

I've started a study hall thread (see my signature line) to chase all this information down and try to get it into some type of cohesive self-help manual for CCO. I'd welcome your participation.

I noticed that thread

I nearly posted in it as I'm particularly interested in what you have to say about liposomal encapsulation, however, I didn't want to clog the thread with things not directly related to the information. I think having a sort of central suppository (this refers to a blunder our previous prime minister, Tony Abbott, made during his election campaign when he said "no one is the suppository of all wisdom") is a great idea.

Anyway, there are some more things that I've been looking in to...

One of the reasons I'm interested in what information there is about liposomal encapsulation is I can't see how just mixing CCO, flaxseed oil, and lecithin will create any liposomes. For example I found this document discussing methods of liposomal encapsulation which suggests more processing is required. What it suggests to me is that the mixing of CCO, flaxseed oil, and lecithin is creating an emulsion which will also increase bioavailability. This is one study I found suggesting that ALA bioavailability was increased by feeding rats flaxseed oil in an emulsion which says to me that adding lecithin and creating an emulsion is still important even if it doesn't create liposomes.

Next, I've been looking at the statements made here that long-chain fatty acids/triglycerides are not sent to the liver like medium-chain fatty acids/triglycerides. What I think I found (assuming I understood it) is that the LCTs are broken down in to monoglycerides and LCFAs which are then reesterified after absorption and incorporated in to chylomicrons which then enter the lymphatic system. However, according to this a 1:1 mix of MCT and LCT resulted in higher LCFA in the lymphatic system than LCT alone in rats. I don't know how this would translate to humans and as to which oil would be best. Should we be aiming for an oil that is highest in LCT and if so which one has the most? Or should we be aiming for a 1:1 ratio of MCT:LCT, and again, which one is closest to this ratio?

Finally, I had a thought about these cold extraction methods which I can't find any evidence of but would be interested in people's thoughts. From my understanding, delta-9-thca is metabolised in to similar metabolites to delta-9-thc. By this I mean that delta-9-thc is metabolised in to 11-hydroxy-delta-9-thc and delta-9-thca is metabolised in to 11-hydroxy-delta-9-thca. Is it possible that be retaining more of these cannabinoid acids in a colder extraction method they are preferentially metabolised by the liver allowing the cannabinoids to circulate for longer?

Anyway, more questions for the resident brains trust

 

[SweetSue]

SAMtheAPman beat me to it!



I planted an Aurora Indica seed just over a week ago and she's just developing her first real leaves I've now planted some more Aurora Indica and a Blue Blood and I'm hoping to see signs of life in the next few days. Assuming all goes well I'll then plant another Blue Blood and the Black Destroyer. As much as I'd like to plant them all and get them all going I need to be careful, so by staggering them I can hopefully catch problems on the first plant and minimise any losses. Anyway, what I'm saying is it'll be a while before I can report back with my own extracts.



I noticed that thread

I nearly posted in it as I'm particularly interested in what you have to say about liposomal encapsulation, however, I didn't want to clog the thread with things not directly related to the information. I think having a sort of central suppository (this refers to a blunder our previous prime minister, Tony Abbott, made during his election campaign when he said "no one is the suppository of all wisdom") is a great idea.

Anyway, there are some more things that I've been looking in to...

One of the reasons I'm interested in what information there is about liposomal encapsulation is I can't see how just mixing CCO, flaxseed oil, and lecithin will create any liposomes. For example I found this document discussing methods of liposomal encapsulation which suggests more processing is required. What it suggests to me is that the mixing of CCO, flaxseed oil, and lecithin is creating an emulsion which will also increase bioavailability. This is one study I found suggesting that ALA bioavailability was increased by feeding rats flaxseed oil in an emulsion which says to me that adding lecithin and creating an emulsion is still important even if it doesn't create liposomes.

Next, I've been looking at the statements made here that long-chain fatty acids/triglycerides are not sent to the liver like medium-chain fatty acids/triglycerides. What I think I found (assuming I understood it) is that the LCTs are broken down in to monoglycerides and LCFAs which are then reesterified after absorption and incorporated in to chylomicrons which then enter the lymphatic system. However, according to this a 1:1 mix of MCT and LCT resulted in higher LCFA in the lymphatic system than LCT alone in rats. I don't know how this would translate to humans and as to which oil would be best. Should we be aiming for an oil that is highest in LCT and if so which one has the most? Or should we be aiming for a 1:1 ratio of MCT:LCT, and again, which one is closest to this ratio?

Finally, I had a thought about these cold extraction methods which I can't find any evidence of but would be interested in people's thoughts. From my understanding, delta-9-thca is metabolised in to similar metabolites to delta-9-thc. By this I mean that delta-9-thc is metabolised in to 11-hydroxy-delta-9-thc and delta-9-thca is metabolised in to 11-hydroxy-delta-9-thca. Is it possible that be retaining more of these cannabinoid acids in a colder extraction method they are preferentially metabolised by the liver allowing the cannabinoids to circulate for longer?

Anyway, more questions for the resident brains trust

Loved the suppository comment. Where would we be without the unintended hilarity of our politicians? Lol!

You raise some provocative points. This is exactly the type of discussion that I'd like to see spring up in the study hall. This phase of the project is brainstorming and translation of the mind-numbing information. Next step is to make it into something cohesive. The study hall is intended to encourage debate on these matters. If we can answer these questions then we can find better dosing methods.

I've suspected all along that diversity in the dosing might be more effective, in the same way that cannabis used as a whole plant offers the entourage effect, so the fatty acid mix makes perfect sense to me. I also believe that any oil protocol should include both CCO and an extraction like this olive oil one. We need all of the components in play, and the CCO doesn't fill that bill on its own.

We're not making liposomes. Liposomes are created in specialized labs using expensive equipment. We're creating a lipid coating that more easily fascilitate absorbtion.

I'm going back to the video I was watching on synergy and terpenes. It's on the Society Of Cannabis Clinician's site. If you haven't seen this yet I think it'd interest you. There's another good one on fatty acid transporters that SlowToke shared on the study hall thread. Here's the link if you're interested.

Minor Cannabinoids and Cannabis Terpenoids

 

[fookinel]

I've suspected all along that diversity in the dosing might be more effective, in the same way that cannabis used as a whole plant offers the entourage effect, so the fatty acid mix makes perfect sense to me. I also believe that any oil protocol should include both CCO and an extraction like this olive oil one. We need all of the components in play, and the CCO doesn't fill that bill on its own.

I'm in two minds. On one hand there could be synergistic effects of various compounds while on the other hand there could be antagonistic effects. As we've already touched on this it could probably be worked out with proper testing which is sadly lacking. For now it's a best guess and that seems to be to include everything which would come from a combination of extraction methods...

We're not making liposomes. Liposomes are created in specialized labs using expensive equipment. We're creating a lipid coating that more easily fascilitate absorbtion.

I just assumed with all the talk about liposomal encapsulation and bio bombs that was the case! Okay, so now I understand it's just for absorption

I'm going back to the video I was watching on synergy and terpenes. It's on the Society Of Cannabis Clinician's site. If you haven't seen this yet I think it'd interest you. There's another good one on fatty acid transporters that SlowToke shared on the study hall thread. Here's the link if you're interested.

Minor Cannabinoids and Cannabis Terpenoids

I watched the video, it was very interesting

It lead me to this paper with the various effects from the terpenes in another plant! I'm not suggesting this should be included with cannabis oil, it's just something of interest

 

[PsyCro]

Thanks for the information!

I'll be interested to hear what you have to say about pure thca when you're more awake

Well, maybe not 'pure' but close. I once made a 'warm' extract using temperature ranging from 60-80 degrees Celsius, but for about 6 hours. Some conversion from THCa to THC probably happened, but probably not much. The end result was interesting, and different from my decarbed extract.
It was a very twitchy nervous kind of feeling, not so much euphoria, rather darn annoying to be honest. I've read that CBD has a similar effect to THCa, and actually use a high CBD plant for mixing a more wakeful oil.. so in that respect yes, they are similar. I'm sure a cold/warm extract has its purposes, but at the moment i don't have a use for it.

aaaand that's about it.. guess i was pretty tired when i couldn't put together just a few more sentences!

 

[SweetSue]

I'm in two minds. On one hand there could be synergistic effects of various compounds while on the other hand there could be antagonistic effects. As we've already touched on this it could probably be worked out with proper testing which is sadly lacking. For now it's a best guess and that seems to be to include everything which would come from a combination of extraction methods...

Testing is going to give me fits. There must be a way around this. *sigh*

I just assumed with all the talk about liposomal encapsulation and bio bombs that was the case! Okay, so now I understand it's just for absorption



I watched the video, it was very interesting

It lead me to this paper with the various effects from the terpenes in another plant! I'm not suggesting this should be included with cannabis oil, it's just something of interest

Interesting read. It had me thinking about PsyCro's extraction and the inexplicable potency as compared to the traditional CCO. I suspect it's due to the synergistic effect of the terpenes and flavonoids that have been retained.

PsyCro, do I understand you correctly, you use a high CBD plant to make a daytime wakeful oil? May I ask what strain you use? Is this an olive oil extraction?

 

[fookinel]

Testing is going to give me fits. There must be a way around this. *sigh*

Haha! I think I didn't explain myself very well. I have no doubts that cannabinoids and terpenes have a synergistic effect, however, as Donald Rumsfeld referred to there may be "unknown unknowns". That's the bit I'm concerned about when trying a different method such as combining two extracts together. I've already seen from PsyCro's previous post that too much thca could be problematic for side effects...

Unfortunately my background is scientific (just not medical), so for me I'll never be completely satisfied until the proper tests are done!

Interesting read. It had me thinking about PsyCro's extraction and the inexplicable potency as compared to the traditional CCO. I suspect it's due to the synergistic effect of the terpenes and flavonoids that have been retained.

It could very well be! And to think just a few weeks ago I would have thought someone was crazy for suggesting the compounds that give certain things a distinctive taste/smell could have any therapeutic effects, let alone in the treatment of cancers!

 

[PsyCro]

Interesting read. It had me thinking about PsyCro's extraction and the inexplicable potency as compared to the traditional CCO. I suspect it's due to the synergistic effect of the terpenes and flavonoids that have been retained.

PsyCro, do I understand you correctly, you use a high CBD plant to make a daytime wakeful oil? May I ask what strain you use? Is this an olive oil extraction?

CBD Nordle, extract the same way but using 120 degrees celsius for a somewhat shorter time. Then i mix the oil 50/50 later on with the high THC oil. I also mix it 30/70-20/80 for normal use so that i have some cbd in there.. better for night time use. I find the CBD:THC ratio is quite important.

 

[PsyCro]

double post...

 

[SAMtheAPman]

Just on a side note, researchers in Australia have discovered how lavender (smell) affects bees (and probably humans) in ways that you wouldn't think: Catalyst: Honey Bee Brains and Lavender - ABC TV Science

It not only calms them (as anyone who uses essential oils already knows), but can also help them make long term memories and even change/affect their DNA.

Seems that just the smell of different cannabis strains could have huge effects on humans that we don't currently know about.

 

[fookinel]

Just on a side note, researchers in Australia have discovered how lavender (smell) affects bees (and probably humans) in ways that you wouldn't think: Catalyst: Honey Bee Brains and Lavender - ABC TV Science

It not only calms them (as anyone who uses essential oils already knows), but can also help them make long term memories and even change/affect their DNA.

Seems that just the smell of different cannabis strains could have huge effects on humans that we don't currently know about.

There seems to be a lot we don't really know about the compounds in this plant!

 

[SweetSue]

CBD Nordle, extract the same way but using 120 degrees celsius for a somewhat shorter time. Then i mix the oil 50/50 later on with the high THC oil. I also mix it 30/70-20/80 for normal use so that i have some cbd in there.. better for night time use. I find the CBD:THC ratio is quite important.

Thanks for the response PsyCro. Sorry I took so long to find it. Got caught up in life and the study hall. I have a Nordle seed that I plan to run at some point in the future, but this run I have a CBD Critical Cure, a CBD Critical Mass and a Med GOM 1.0, all strains I was growing for people who have opted out of the oil because of social concerns tied to prohibition. I'm going to try your mixes and see how they go. I have a friend who's husband just got diagnosed with RA, and he may be interested in something to help with the pain and inflammation. It'll be a trick getting him to accept cannabis that isn't intended to get him high. I may give him a bit that will, to offset the shock. Lol!

 

[SweetSue]

Just on a side note, researchers in Australia have discovered how lavender (smell) affects bees (and probably humans) in ways that you wouldn't think: Catalyst: Honey Bee Brains and Lavender - ABC TV Science

It not only calms them (as anyone who uses essential oils already knows), but can also help them make long term memories and even change/affect their DNA.

Seems that just the smell of different cannabis strains could have huge effects on humans that we don't currently know about.

They're discovering that the terpenes and flavonoids may be the determining factors in the efficacy of the cannabinoids. So yes, those flavonoids and terpenes are a much more important part of the equation than anyone suspected. It has us now searching for ways to retain as many components as possible in the production of oil.

This method is one of my favorites so far, for those values. I can't wait to try it.

 

[fookinel]

I have a friend who's husband just got diagnosed with RA, and he may be interested in something to help with the pain and inflammation. It'll be a trick getting him to accept cannabis that isn't intended to get him high. I may give him a bit that will, to offset the shock. Lol!

So you're saying you don't just invite them round and give him edibles without his knowledge? I guess your friend would get suspicious when you don't offer them any