Optimal PH and PPM from seed/clone: Harvest?

[420Steve]

Hey guys been doing a lot of research around PH levels and PPM and what is optimal for cannabis plants in DWC particularly the strain OG Kush, there are loads of different ranges out there that work for a lot of people but if someone could help me here and give me guidelines from (seed/clone - harvest), i would be so thankful and all feedback is appreciated.

Base this chart using a reverse osmosis system PPM of 0, Cal + Mag will be used aswell as Dutch Pro A+B and numerous dutch pro nutrients.

Example Chart

Seed/Clones
Day 0 - PH: 1 / PPM: 100 / EC: 0.1 / CF: 1 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Day 3/4 - PH: 1 / PPM: 100 / EC: 0.1 / CF: 1 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Day 7 - PH: 1 / PPM: 100 / EC: 0.1 / CF: 1 / Temp: 75f - 78f

Veg
Week 2 - PH: 1 / PPM: 100 / EC: 0.1 / CF: 1 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Week 3 - PH: 1 / PPM: 100 / EC: 0.1 / CF: 1 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Week 4 - PH: 1 / PPM: 100 / EC: 0.1 / CF: 1 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Week 5 - PH: 1 / PPM: 100 / EC: 0.1 / CF: 1 / Temp: 75f - 78f

Flower
Week 6 - PH: 1 / PPM: 100 / EC: 0.1 / CF: 1 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Week 7 - PH: 1 / PPM: 100 / EC: 0.1 / CF: 1 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Week 8 - PH: 1 / PPM: 100 / EC: 0.1 / CF: 1 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Week 9 - PH: 1 / PPM: 100 / EC: 0.1 / CF: 1 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Week10 - PH: 1 / PPM: 100 / EC: 0.1 / CF: 1 / Temp: 75f - 78f

Even what nutrients you use and at what strength would be a massive help any one that submits information will get a thumbs up by me and a recommendation.

 

[420Steve]

Currently got this based on the information from this post on 420 Mag for optimization, tell me if i am incorrect, i look forward to seeing your comments. What Ranges Should I maintain for my Hydroponic Nutrients pH, TDS/EC and Temperature?

Seed/Clones
Day 0 - PH: 5.2 / PPM: 500 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Day 3/4 - PH: 5.2 / PPM: 550 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Day 7 - PH: 5.2 / PPM: 600 / Temp: 75f - 78f

Veg
Week 2 - PH: 5.2 / PPM: 800 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Week 3 - PH: 5.2 / PPM: 825 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Week 4 - PH: 5.2 / PPM: 850 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Week 5 - PH: 5.2 / PPM: 900 / Temp: 75f - 78f

Flower
Week 6 - PH: 5.2 / PPM: 1000 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Week 7 - PH: 5.2 / PPM: 1050 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Week 8 - PH: 5.2 / PPM: 1100 / Temp: 75f - 78f
Week 9 - PH: 5.2 / PPM: 500(Flush) / Temp: 75f - 78f
Week10 - PH: 5.2 / PPM: 400(Flush) / Temp: 75f - 78f

 

[Papageno]

Technically there is no guaranteed recipe. The nutes specifically are really not the food rather those are like vitamins. If you gave your kid extra vitamins without enough food they would not grow. The real food for plants is the light. So understanding that... and understanding the total environment including temps and humidity (and a lot more) all matter in deciding how much light it can absorb... The nutes it needs is a function of how much it is growing... which is a result of many factors but again primarily the lights.

So if you are running a 400W or 2 1000W (1 HPS and 1 MH) you will have very different nute requirements. If you have temp controls and good fans it changes again. I can go on and on.

You have to fundamentally know the system you are using (RDWC, UC, BB, BC, DWC...) and know what different nute conditions for abundance or deficiencies look like. And after a few runs you can dial it in on a strain.

For a first run follow the manf. instructions at 1/4 -1/2 nute strength. You can't go full strength unless you have EVERYTHING dialed in and even then you may burn them.



pH...That is a whole different topic... Many people try to keep it at one small window. I don't personally believe that is correct for a lot of reasons. Look up pH cycling for nutrient absorption to read more. If you are dumping the tank weekly then go ahead and keep it in a small range. Current Culture has a great chart on this but it is for their system (UC). The pH change is probably usable on all setups DWC related.

 

[420Steve]

Technically there is no guaranteed recipe. The nutes specifically are really not the food rather those are like vitamins. If you gave your kid extra vitamins without enough food they would not grow. The real food for plants is the light. So understanding that... and understanding the total environment including temps and humidity (and a lot more) all matter in deciding how much light it can absorb... The nutes it needs is a function of how much it is growing... which is a result of many factors but again primarily the lights.

So if you are running a 400W or 2 1000W (1 HPS and 1 MH) you will have very different nute requirements. If you have temp controls and good fans it changes again. I can go on and on.

You have to fundamentally know the system you are using (RDWC, UC, BB, BC, DWC...) and know what different nute conditions for abundance or deficiencies look like. And after a few runs you can dial it in on a strain.

For a first run follow the manf. instructions at 1/4 -1/2 nute strength. You can't go full strength unless you have EVERYTHING dialed in and even then you may burn them.



pH...That is a whole different topic... Many people try to keep it at one small window. I don't personally believe that is correct for a lot of reasons. Look up pH cycling for nutrient absorption to read more. If you are dumping the tank weekly then go ahead and keep it in a small range. Current Culture has a great chart on this but it is for their system (UC). The pH change is probably usable on all setups DWC related.

PH for this graph seems to be really high it looks more like a soil mix graph but most information stays the same RH day and night ect? If you have any other useful information please share

 

[Papageno]

I would say pH is something Cannabis growers get really anal about in hydro but they really should relax a bit.

The reason it is is high in the beginning is it helps Calcium uptake and for many plants that only veg they run up there. Below is one nute absorption chart I found on the web. Basically nutes absorb better at different pH's. If you maintain it at one pH then you are favoring uptake of some nutes over others. Then you have to do some overdosing to compensate

here is another one that suggests 6.3 is best... I believe that is for lettuce. So that is a veg only regimen. So that also explains why for cannabis maybe it is okay to also run higher in veg.
pH Chart NFT hydroponic hydroponics NZ

I wont start dropping mine back down to 5.4 (my bottom) until I am at least 6.3 but many times I will go to 6.5 before recycling it if I want certain uptake I am not seeing naturally. Typically my tea stabilizes and I don't have to touch it after one or 2 cycles and I run a batch for 4-6 weeks. I definitely change at bloom. I am going to try a new regimen the next run myself as I am trying to do some things to reduce res change frequency. Also I brew up living teas and use bacteria and fungi and a few chems like Fulvic acid which totally change nute uptake. There are many other things you can do as well. So that affects PPM... Are you using a good Fulvic acid?

Root density and root quality (do you have a good symbiotic fungus in there to aid in uptake?) affect uptake rates as well which in turn impact how much you need. So like I said there are a lot of things that impact how many PPMs you need for any one week and it all depends on what and how you are doing it. Undercurrent systems typically run at 1/4 the concentration of standard DWC. Now they may need to keep adding more frequently but the uptake rates are so improved that you can easily burn plants at the same PPM.

If you venture outside the cannabis world to look at hydro you will find that most people will run much looser and allow for the pH to cycle up and down to get a wider variation of nutrient absorption. You really wont damage your plants until you are well off that chart. Many beneficial microbial teas and bacteria like to be much closer to 7.0. And cannabis itself is not hurt by a pH of 7.0, the only thing is the nutes may get locked out or you may not get the uptake you want. Many times lets say you want to put in some beneficial bacteria and microbes to say prevent pythium... You may dump your res and put in the tea at 7.0 for a few days then lower it back down and add some nutes back. That is common and great to block unwanted bacteria and microbes. So just to be clear. Canabis is not negatively impacted by having a more neutral pH...the nute uptake is hampered by this and that, if left unattended, can cause problems.

All that said...If you are dumping your res once a week, running sterile and putting in all fresh stuff then you can ignore all that and just run it tight at 5.8 as it wont matter so much if you aren't using it all up. The problem is if you go a long time you can have build up of some nutes while others are used up. If you keep adding and you don't get even absorption then you get out of balance. Decent or better nute products are a complete well balanced set of macro and micro nutes that when absorbed together are the right amount.

I have a friend who never dumps until the end of harvest. He has it dialed in and just tops off every few days. I think most people couldn't do that... I haven't attempted that yet. But I run a very large res and he is running a small one.



Anyway about humidity. The issue isn't so much that night and day are not that much different... The issue is that night and day are very similar. I have a monitor that tells me max and min for temp and humidity in the tent. If I do not run an exhaust fan at night the RH goes to 100%. So the point I am really trying to make is if I did that and let the humidity get bad then I do not have an optimal environment. I will not use as many nutes as I will not grow as well as if I maintained a tight "good" RH. I may get mold and stunt growth and my nute concentration has to go down or I burn them.


That graph, like I said, is from the Current Culture web site, which is in many peoples opinion, the manufacturers of the best cannabis hydro system available. It may not work for a different system (like I mentioned) that is not growing as fast or as big of plants. But for optimal growth in the best system available ... that is what they recommend. They have studied it a lot more then I have. They are probably using top of the line lights and filtered intake and tight temp and humidity controls and CO2 properly ventilated...

So again if you are not running at optimum settings then your recipe may vary.

 

[420Steve]

Villageidiot Thanks for all this information what are you currently growing and your method?

 

[Papageno]

Well as to what I am growing that is a bit unknown. I used to breed about 10 years back. I stopped 10 years ago and just recently restarted. I have hundreds of seeds in a many bags from various stages or cross breeding and some F1's and some full blown stable strains. The oldest bag had a label of 1996 but I don't know if that was the oldest seeds I had. I started last November or so and started putting down some seeds I had using methods that had worked for me for years. Nothing worked. I tried this and that and the other and before i knew it I had seeds from all sorts of bags in various types of starter mediums and it got out of control and unlabeled. I finally gave up and ordered some new seeds from a seed bank and then of course about 10 of my seeds sprouted. I think the ones from 1996 might be some of these so woho!!!! But anyway I have no idea what I have going right now.

As to what is my method... Primarily top drip RDWC...but I am doing a bunch of experiments and tests on this run to see what happens when I do this or that. I am trying different hydro methods and different nutrient programs and I am trying to dial in something that is both easy to manage and low cost but does not impact final quality or yield too much. But since I am growing from unknown seeds and had to yank males in the res that mixed roots with others and bla bla this run is more of a "pants on fire" run to see what is just stupid to do. For example I brewed a real strong microbial tea and just dumped a ton of it in to see what would happen. I did get some nute burn but not too bad and my plants sure loved it...

I used to grow in soil and I was able to match or beat my hydro friends no problem but I knew what I was doing in soil. I would grow indoor and get final product faster than my friends running hydro with 4 foot tall plants with forearm sized kolas. I used very basic nute programs and I had a soil mix that needed nothing in veg. So I never thought much of the hype.

Now that I have genetically identical female clones from the same mother I am going to build some independent buckets and do some side by side comparisons. I will even run some side by side soil to see what that's all about. Then I will know if the nute program I want to run is significantly worse or not then following the directions. If I can get something to work that uses a fraction of the nutes and I change out the res 3 times instead of weekly and I only have marginal yield reduction and same potency and similar grow times then I will be happy. I am just doing it for myself not for money. So anyway I can save some cash on this is good for me.

Once I have something good I will try those new expensive designer seeds I got from Holland.

 

[420Steve]

Cant wait for you to share the results what country are you in and isit for medical purposes?

 

[Papageno]

I live in the U.S. of A.

Well I use it medicinally but not really for what I had a script card for. When I lived in Cali I got one for chronic pain in my leg from a bad accident I was in. That allowed me to grow legal. I still have a bunch of metal in my leg permanently and I have some crazy pains from it and my knee is totally a mess and will never be right again. Sometimes I can't even walk right. But honestly I don't use it for that. I use it more because it regulates me emotionally. I get high strung and crazy. I am a loud type A personality. When I smoke, even just a little once in a while, I am laid back and normal and easy going. I find it easier to concentrate. I don't drink when I am regularly smoking... and when I drink I can get mean but my wife never complains about me being high. It really is a great drug for hyperactive people. I am an electrical engineer and I have worked on some really complex important stuff in my career. I have spent tons of years writing code as well. My problem solving and code development is much easier if I am a little high because I focus better and things are fluid instead of all over the place. I know lots of engineers who are this way and weed helps.

I live in a state where medical is legal but also in a few months it will be legal to grow your own for recreational. No license or anything. As long as you are a resident you can grow 4 plants as long as the neighbors can't see them. Now in my state most of the people live where it is not good to grow outside anyway. I have a buddy down south where it is good to grow outside. He is just an hour from northern California just over the border really from the emerald triangle. People everywhere down there do it outside. His neighbors kids planted some just off my buddies property one year and just when it was ripe my buddy stole it out from under these kids. I asked him if he was going to get back into growing and he said it is just too available there for him to care. Out west is the best!!!!

 

[McCdive]

Mr. Villageidiot, your name couldn't be more unsuited to you! You've put out an extremely detailed and informative responce for 420Steve. I've just started my first DWC grow. I stuck some clones in a couple weeks ago just for a learning experience. Not that I want to fail, but I don't expect much on my first go around. I didn't change nutes the first time for 2 weeks. Just doesn't make sense to. So little groth so why bother? Well that's how I felt. Right off I can say I'm not a fan of DWC. For sure my next time around will be RDWC. I'd much rather have a larger rez to make even nute mixes and better/easier control of rez temps and root health.
Currently I'm growing in rockwool in a recirculating system. I'm getting fairly good at maitaining nutes/temps/lights. So I took some clones and just figured I'd fuck around and see what happens.
I was thrilled to have run across this thred, VI, you're a fountain of information! Thanks for sharing the wealth, man.
Have you given any thought to a video journal as a companion to a regular journal? I'd love to see the side by side trials and perhaps emulate them myself. Just a thought.

Thankyou Mr. Smartest Village Idiot I've ever met!, Andy.

 

[Papageno]

LOL

Well thanks.


So I just got a new grow tent and new 1000W setup and carbon scrubber and fans. My ducting just showed up today. I am getting speed controllers for the fans next week (those took like 4 weeks on back order). So I am still a ways from getting a stable controlled environment built. I have the tent up and moved my grow there anyway but it was about 3 weeks into flower and without proper venting...I should have just left it where I had it. Problem was the smell. I gots a Phresh in the tent and that is nice. But I still am needing to do some things in there.

Basically like I said this run is going to be nice but not great. I am just getting back into growing. I really stressed the plant moving locations and environments so I probably added 2 weeks to the run or just tanked my yield. Either way this will all get turned into butter I might keep like 1 Z for the bong.

So all that said I wont be running a real controlled experiment for a while. In fact I have some Fem'd autos in the pack of seeds I got from Holland. Those wont be good for experimentation. I probably will put those in soil for my next run and do them like I used to and see what I can get from those. They didn't have anything like Fem'd or Autos back in my day. Sooooo much has changed! I remember when Skunk came out and that was the big rage. Man now there are more designer weeds then I think I can get too before I croak.

Anyway, so I may not get back to experimenting on this until fall. Or I might save those seeds and continue with these clones. I figure the seeds I got from Holland have to be way better then my 15 year old stuff so why waste my time. Just bang out the autos and then try some of the standard photo ones and find a mother and start over.

But when I do get around to it...I will post results here on 420mag. I owe it to the community.

 

[McCdive]

Absolutely, VI, please do a journal.
I know what you mean about the weed today, lol. I remember when skunk weed came out. Until last week, I had never "bought" a seed in my life. Now I have 10 lovely Fem (never had them before) seeds coming from down under.
When did we get 2,672 different varieties of weed???
But I honestly can say there fantastic Hybrids out there now. Wish we had had them when I was a kid!


Stop by my journal sometime. I just posted some pics of my new light setup.

Stay stoned, my friend, Andy.

 

[Papageno]

if you got time to kill I have another thread running here about everything else you should be using in DWC (not the nutes). It is getting long though so you may need to get out the pipe. And if you know about microbes, bacteria and fungi and enzymes then it wont be worth your time.

Introducing Benes to my DWC for the first time

 

[McCdive]

if you got time to kill I have another thread running here about everything else you should be using in DWC (not the nutes). It is getting long though so you may need to get out the pipe. And if you know about microbes, bacteria and fungi and enzymes then it wont be worth your time.

Introducing Benes to my DWC for the first time

Absolutly, I'll check out that thread. Thanks.

 

[420Steve]

Im a new grower aswell and i didnt realize how complicated hydroponics is, sort of wish i did soil now hassle free

 

[Papageno]

LOL

There are a lot of hydro guys who say it is easy as hell. I think it is... once you know what you are doing, but the ramp up is much steeper. You have to learn everything you need to grow in soil plus a bunch of stuff you need for hydro all at once. I think everyone should start in soil then transition to hydro. First off it is way cheaper to start because half the equipment is the same. You need vent fans and lights regardless. But if you start in soil you just get a fabric pot and some stuff for a soil blend. You can do your first couple of runs with a basic nutrient line or even just miracle grow like we did in the 80's, while learning about all the fun stuff like how to brew a good microbial tea. Once you know how the plant life cycle is and what nute burn looks like then you can start on Hydro. In soil it is hard to screw things up but you have added problems related to pests. In hyrdo you wont have near the pest problems but you can loose the whole batch in a day if something gets outta whack and you are not there. It is easy to underfeed in hydro and near impossible in a decent soil mix.

So there is a lot to learn and I think soil is the way to go in the beginning. Once you have that 80% down you can try learning the 20% extra that is hydro. All you really need to learn about hydro that isn't something you learn in soil is nutrient regimen. But everything else that you must learn can be done with less risk and easier in soil...except for pests.

One thing more to note.

Hydro is good when you have limited space. You can use a much smaller res then a soil pot for the same size plant. But most industrial huge for profit growers like the warehouse growers in Colorado are doing it in soil. If you are doing a perpetual grow there is no point in doing hydro. But if you are doing 1 run at a time like most of us home growers then Hydro is the way to go. The only real way to run perpetual is to have a bunch of independent bubble buckets, Hempy buckets, or soil. Since the nute profile changes weekly if you want to run a multi-plant hydro system they should be the same strain and age for best results. However if you want to run many strains you need to run them separately. And hauling a nicer hydro system than a bubble Bucket back and forth from a veg room to a bloom room is just the worst if even possible. So large scale perpetual grow ops do soil.

 

[McCdive]

Steve, I can't tell you how many frustrating days in veg that I said the same thing, bud! Make no mistake, it's not a simple task. I'm doing my first hydro grow right now and it's been a bumpy ride, to say the least. I didn't have much guidance at first. I was doomed from the start. The store I bought all the equipment from did me wrong. Instead of a simple 2 part nute system, I was given a Dyna -Gro product line that requires 5 different bottles that you combine in different amount at different points in the grow. BIG FUCKING MISTAKE! Talk about confusion!
I started my first hydro grow November 18th of last year. I am NOW in my 4 week of flowering. It's been tough, but worth it! A guy like VI to nurse you along is absolutely critical. I know that without the help from this comunity there is no way I could have made it alone. I have outdoor (limited) growing experience that helped, buy hydro is a different animal. Don't be disscuraged. I also did what VI said not to. I am growing 3 different strains in the same Rockwool tray. Big mistake! Stick to one type at a time, for sure! Trying 3 separate plants in the same grow you will never have the same groth and highth or timing . WAY more complicated.
Simple nutes. Separate pots. Good lighting. Good venting. Good, reliable testing equipment. A pen and paper and camera are the basic tools. The essential tool is 420Mag and guys like VI.
Good luck in whatever you choose to do, Steve.
Andy.

 

[McCdive]

Handy tools for hydro....

If you have a couple bucks, this will help boat-loads!!

 

[420Steve]

Steve, I can't tell you how many frustrating days in veg that I said the same thing, bud! Make no mistake, it's not a simple task. I'm doing my first hydro grow right now and it's been a bumpy ride, to say the least. I didn't have much guidance at first. I was doomed from the start. The store I bought all the equipment from did me wrong. Instead of a simple 2 part nute system, I was given a Dyna -Gro product line that requires 5 different bottles that you combine in different amount at different points in the grow. BIG FUCKING MISTAKE! Talk about confusion!
I started my first hydro grow November 18th of last year. I am NOW in my 4 week of flowering. It's been tough, but worth it! A guy like VI to nurse you along is absolutely critical. I know that without the help from this comunity there is no way I could have made it alone. I have outdoor (limited) growing experience that helped, buy hydro is a different animal. Don't be disscuraged. I also did what VI said not to. I am growing 3 different strains in the same Rockwool tray. Big mistake! Stick to one type at a time, for sure! Trying 3 separate plants in the same grow you will never have the same groth and highth or timing . WAY more complicated.
Simple nutes. Separate pots. Good lighting. Good venting. Good, reliable testing equipment. A pen and paper and camera are the basic tools. The essential tool is 420Mag and guys like VI.
Good luck in whatever you choose to do, Steve.
Andy.

Hey Andy some great advice, i am in a similar boat when it comes to my local hydroponic store they ripped me off as-well, it is to late for soil now and it is going to be hydro all the way for me succeed or fail i will succeed!

When is comes to that monitor its great but i am going to have 6 single 25 liter buckets and it looks like that monitor is for a reservoir for it to be accurate, how ever i do have a PH pen and a EC pen and will check it every few days from veg to flower as the PH and EC changes.

I am now about 2 weeks in for my biggest seedling and growth is really slow i think this is down to the temperature of the room being low around 58f - 70f night and day, its winter here so it gets cold and the tent ent that insulating, so to combat this issue i am getting some small heaters to warm up the tents to the right temp hopefully boost growth.
PH is around 5.8 and EC at 48ppm, i have tried to give some regen-a-root nutes to the seedlings at 1/4 strength but i seem to of burnt them, here are a few recent pics:

The 2 biggest ones are the oldest ones at 2 weeks, talk about slow growth hey!

 

[420Steve]

This is my journal i am currently updating stay in touch would be helpful for all your feedback!

Hydroponic DWC Grow With 420Steve! - First Journal