Organic Hydro nutes

[TorturedSoul]

I also have been interested in trying General Organics line of nutes, anyone have any experiences or recommendations on em? Seem a little cheaper than alot of the other organic stuff out there!

Read on a GH blog that they may produce an overabundance of microbial "foam" at the top of a DWC reservoir if the DWC system produces "big bubbles." Didn't read like it was a show-stopper - and the blog mentioned that adding a drop or two of one of their GO components would help "like adding a few drops of oil to a boiling pot" - but something to be aware of. Probably something that every DWC grower experimenting with any organic (including microbes) line would come across at some point.

Have no personal experience with the GO product line.

 

[Froglips]

In my opinion organics is the way to go!

... But using organic nutes with a hydro system can be a real pain in the butt. It typically clogs up your pumps, drip systems, and aeroponics systems... Also smells really terrible.

I stopped using them because I am researching the reality of organic nutes for use in hydro gardens. Most say they are 100% organic, but they are lying. They are made up of "Chelates" of the organic minerals, NOT the actual organic mineral already broken down for instant plant consumption.

Here is what I have found so far:

1st let me just say that when you use the word "Chemicals" to describe what is in non-organic nutrients, please understand they are not chemicals. They are "Minerals", and chelates of the organic minerals.

What I have found is that there seems to only be 2 truly organic nutes on the market at the moment. One is called "Earth Juice", but this one can be a pain to use for the reasons I described above, and Earth Juice is also the only manufacturer that has a truly organic pH Up and pH Down product on the market.

The other only truly organic nute on the market is called "Iguana Juice" by AN. This stuff is supposed to be the Shiznit for hydro organics, folks! This is the one I am going to try, along with all of their truly organic supplements as well.

I was praying that Humboldt Nutes' Organic Natural Grow and Natural Bloom would be 100% organic, but alas it is not... But they are the only manufacturer that tells you the truth about it, and they tell you right in the literature that the stuff will work in a hydro garden, but it is designed for soil, and they state that your results will be much better in a soil garden.

That is all I know for now. I will update this as I find more info.

Also, in case you care... AN offers this stuff called Sensi-Grow and Sensi-Bloom. This stuff is specifically designed for growing doobage, folks!

 

[TorturedSoul]

In my opinion organics is the way to go!

... But using organic nutes with a hydro system can be a real pain in the butt. It typically clogs up your pumps, drip systems, and aeroponics systems... Also smells really terrible.

I stopped using them because I am researching the reality of organic nutes for use in hydro gardens. Most say they are 100% organic, but they are lying. They are made up of "Chelates" of the organic minerals, NOT the actual organic mineral already broken down for instant plant consumption.

What do you find bad about that? Among other things, they keep the ingredients from precipitating out of solution and reacting/combining with each other.

Here is what I have found so far:

1st let me just say that when you use the word "Chemicals" to describe what is in non-organic nutrients, please understand they are not chemicals. They are "Minerals", and chelates of the organic minerals.

Somewhat misleading, since minerals and chelated organic minerals are also chemical substances (as is pretty much everything else that is composed of matter, including water and a piece of carbon).

What I have found is that there seems to only be 2 truly organic nutes on the market at the moment. One is called "Earth Juice", but this one can be a pain to use for the reasons I described above, and Earth Juice is also the only manufacturer that has a truly organic pH Up and pH Down product on the market.

The other only truly organic nute on the market is called "Iguana Juice" by AN. This stuff is supposed to be the Shiznit for hydro organics, folks! This is the one I am going to try, along with all of their truly organic supplements as well.

I was praying that Humboldt Nutes' Organic Natural Grow and Natural Bloom would be 100% organic, but alas it is not... But they are the only manufacturer that tells you the truth about it, and they tell you right in the literature that the stuff will work in a hydro garden, but it is designed for soil, and they state that your results will be much better in a soil garden.

That is all I know for now. I will update this as I find more info.

Also, in case you care... AN offers this stuff called Sensi-Grow and Sensi-Bloom. This stuff is specifically designed for growing doobage, folks!

Out of the 1700 products listed in the online OMRI Products List, the only AN product that I could find was Piranha. Which doesn't necessarily mean that AN's use of the term "organic" is just more of their usual marketing-speak. After all, my definition of the term is somewhat different than the OMRI's... It's possible that AN's is as well. But I've not been able to figure out what it is about their products that keeps them from being certified. If you happen to find out, please let me know.

 

[Froglips]

[/B]What do you find bad about that? Among other things, they keep the ingredients from precipitating out of solution and reacting/combining with each other.

Nothing really. Just looking for as true to organic as possible, and as I am researching this stuff I am finding that chelated minerals are not the way to organics.

Somewhat misleading, since minerals and chelated organic minerals are also chemical substances (as is pretty much everything else that is composed of matter, including water and a piece of carbon).

No shiz! I just like using the word mineral vs chems when I am talking about this kind of stuff. Sounds mo-betta!

Out of the 1700 products listed in the online OMRI Products List, the only AN product that I could find was Piranha. Which doesn't necessarily mean that AN's use of the term "organic" is just more of their usual marketing-speak. After all, my definition of the term is somewhat different than the OMRI's... It's possible that AN's is as well. But I've not been able to figure out what it is about their products that keeps them from being certified. If you happen to find out, please let me know.

I was not aware of this OMRI list. I will look at it, and also see what this Piranha stuff is all about.
I was going by the manufacturer literature of the specific products I listed because these are the only things available in the stores that I have been in. There sure as hell was not 1700 products in the store to choose from, otherwise I would have already been researching them, and that info would be herein.

I hope you are not attempting to state that Iguana Juice is NOT 100% organic. Certification these days means bupkus, as the government and the corporations that own them have already corrupted the word organic, as well as the word "Certified".

You have me really curious now though. I am wondering why I have not seen Piranha in the stores, and I sure do not want to mis-lead and/or list incorrect information here. I just listed what I have found so far, folks.

... And for the record, why does your post sound as though you have something against AN, me, and/or my post? I mean stating that everything in the world is a chemical is totally splitting hairs. In my humble opinion, it just sounds better to say minerals when we are talking about growing plants that you will eventually eat/smoke, no? That is just my opinion though.

Peace out!

 

[TorturedSoul]

Nothing really. Just looking for as true to organic as possible, and as I am researching this stuff I am finding that chelated minerals are not the way to organics.

I guess it depends on the chelating agent that is used. Many of them are, themselves, organic. But I'm the wrong person to speak on which are which and it's been a long time since organic chemistry class, lol. One thing that comes to mind is a statement that organic vs. inorganic is a pretty wide thing and that while I agree that organically-grown can be a plus, there are some inorganic substances - or at least substances that don't meet someone's current qualifications for being tagged as organic - that are harmless and some organic ones that can kill a person, lol. And vice-versa, of course. So I hope that anyone who's considering a choice between two or more products will look at the actual ingredients and not just whether the products are "organic" or "not organic." (I assume you do, but many other people will read this thread as well, lol.)

No shiz! I just like using the word mineral vs chems when I am talking about this kind of stuff. Sounds mo-betta!

See below.

I was not aware of this OMRI list. I will look at it, and also see what this Piranha stuff is all about.
I was going by the manufacturer literature of the specific products I listed because these are the only things available in the stores that I have been in. There sure as hell was not 1700 products in the store to choose from, otherwise I would have already been researching them, and that info would be herein.

The list of certified products on the OMRI website undoubtedly contains more than just the hydro-organic nutrients that we'd find in a grow-shop. Still, there are bound to be many on it. I believe that Botanicare's Organicare products are OMRI-certified. (That's not a recommendation as I've never used them and cannot say one way or the other.)

The OMRI website is:
Welcome to the Organic Materials Review Institute | Organic Materials Review Institute
and the link to their two lists is on the left side of the main page. It seems to be updated regularly (as in a couple of days ago).

I hope you are not attempting to state that Iguana Juice is NOT 100% organic. Certification these days means bupkus, as the government and the corporations that own them have already corrupted the word organic, as well as the word "Certified".

No, only that it has not been certified as such by the non-profit Organic Materials Review Institute (OMRI). Or, AfaIK, by any state or other governmental agency either. While this absolutely does NOT mean that a product that is not so certified isn't organic, it did cause me to wonder. AN tends to be quick to take advantage of any possible positive thing that they can use in their advertising and I would have expected them to submit as many of their products as they thought could be certified as possible. After all, there are bound to be people who look for OMRI certification on products when they shop.

You have me really curious now though. I am wondering why I have not seen Piranha in the stores, and I sure do not want to mis-lead and/or list incorrect information here. I just listed what I have found so far, folks.

... And for the record, why does your post sound as though you have something against AN, me, and/or my post? I mean stating that everything in the world is a chemical is totally splitting hairs. In my humble opinion, it just sounds better to say minerals when we are talking about growing plants that you will eventually eat/smoke, no? That is just my opinion though.

Peace out!

Last two first: I have nothing against you and am enjoying the discussion. I do tend to nitpick somewhat or "split hairs" as you put it from time to time, but a large part of that is that we're discussing things on a forum with over 50,000 members and countless thousands of "guests" who may not understand that the statement isn't technically true (and may therefore get the wrong idea). It's like when I sometimes gripe a bit about people discussing CFLs by their so-called "equivalent wattage" instead of their wattage - in that case, it's only equivalent(sic) to a like wattage of incandescent light that is used by people (not plants) for area-lighting, reading, washing the dishes, and so forth and not for growing plants and therefore the term shouldn't be used in any discussion dealing with horticulture. I know that, you probably know that - perhaps even the majority of people reading might know it - but I've also seen cases where people saw grows with, say, a few 250-watt CFLs and went out & purchased the same number of "300-watt equivalent" CFLs thinking that they were getting something even better. Basically, someone once told me that when making statements that would be seen by an unknown audience, to word them so that the least-informed in the audience would be able to clearly understand your meaning. I did not mean any disrespect.

As for AN... Their products obviously seem to work. As for whether or not they work better than 100% of the cheaper alternatives, I have no idea as I have not - nor has anyone, to my knowledge - used every product line under controlled circumstances. As far as that goes, a manufacturer has a right to offer a suggested retail price (MSRP) and to set the actual wholesale price that it charges for its products. And considering that the price of a good ounce of cannabis is $300 or more in many areas, a quarter-pound grown with their products is probably (I'm guessing) enough value to offset the cost of the grower's nutrients even if he/she used the most expensive set that AN offers. I don't much care for the way they've named many of their products and their labels, but they aren't the only ones that do that (just the leader of the pack, lol).

I DO have issues with their telling retailers that they must sell AN products for at least a certain minimum price and that if the retailers are caught selling them for less they might no longer be able to sell those products. That seems like one of those "unfair business practices" to me, but since the FTC hasn't stepped in and sued/etc. AN over it, I have to assume that it's not illegal to do so. Other than that... I just am not all that comfortable around marketing/advertising guys, lol, and AN was founded and is run by people who are exactly that and who's background is (chiefly) in marketing/advertising - and it sure shows. I mean... It's great that they have a "staff of scientists and plant people" working for them, but there are nutrient companies that were founded by scientists and plant people and who likely put far more into their R&D budget than in their advertising budget.

So, no, I'm not really an AN "fanboy" as such. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't consider using one of their products - only that I'd take their statements with a grain of salt and look for independent verification first. (But we should all do that with ANY type of product.) Actually, I've read about their new electronic HID ballast and would consider using one - even though it's fire-engine red with black accents, has a graphic of an alien head (or possibly a skull?) on the middle of it, and is creatively named/spelled Baddass Ballast, lmfao - if what I've read about it turns out to be true in practice. It does seem to have a lot going for it. And is priced accordingly, of course.

 

[Froglips]

WOW! I thought I was long winded. LOL! I think I like you! )

I had no idea about the history of AN. I have never used their stuff either, but will be using Iguana Juice Grow/Bloom, Organic B, Wet Betty Organic, and Nirvana in about a month when this harvest is complete. I will definitely read more carefully when I read about their stuff from now on though, as they do seem to boast a lot, where as the others really do not.

I am certainly no expert, and I really do not know much at all other than what I have stated herein. I am just getting back into this again after 8 years off. I am like 3.5 weeks into my 1st garden since then, and the only things I really remember are the technical stuff on my lighting, air circulation, and stuff like that.

The organic hydro nutrients have come such a long way in 8 years. Back then I think there was only Earth Juice, and I remember it being a real biatch to try to deal with in an Areoponic system I was using then.

Anyway, I am still learning about Chelates, and I am quickly coming to the conclusion that they are a necessary evil in Organic Hydro nutes.

All I can say is that I was real excited when I read about Iguana Juice, and the other Hydro Organic lines from AN. I can not wait to see how they work out in my garden, as I am trying really hard to achieve the closest thing to 100% Hydro Organics I possibly can.

I am just a little worried about the rumors I am hearing though... That is while Hydro Organics will definitely make your harvests taste much better than "Chem Nutes" ), the yields are substantially smaller, and the harvests could take a little longer than normal.

Hope to talk to you about this stuff again sometime, Bro!

 

[TorturedSoul]

WOW! I thought I was long winded. LOL!

You're not kidding. I clicked the button to post that, saw the length of the post, and thought, "Whoops!"

I think I like you! )

That's scary. You should probably go have that checked, lol.

Wait a second... I thought you stated you think like me.

I had no idea about the history of AN. I have never used their stuff either, but will be using Iguana Juice Grow/Bloom, Organic B, Wet Betty Organic, and Nirvana in about a month when this harvest is complete. I will definitely read more carefully when I read about their stuff from now on though, as they do seem to boast a lot, where as the others really do not.

Always read what you can. Make up your own mind. Then try what you want to and decide afterwards if you made the right decision or if you want to try something else.

Just because they boast a lot... Doesn't necessarily mean that their products aren't worthy of boasting about. Let me know how they work for you. Like I stated, they've definitely worked great for some.

I am just getting back into this again after 8 years off. I am like 3.5 weeks into my 1st garden since then, and the only things I really remember are the technical stuff on my lighting, air circulation, and stuff like that.

I took some time off - far less than eight years - and I'm worried that I'll forget something basic. Sounds like you remember the basics and that's important. Best of luck on your grow. Do you have a journal? If so, you might wish to put a link to it in your .SIG so that I and others can easily find it, subscribe, and follow along & cheer, learn, and maybe offer a suggestion or two along the way.

The organic hydro nutrients have come such a long way in 8 years.

You're not kidding. Lots more choices. Many of them probably work very well if used in a grow that's tailored to their properties. I don't have the knowledge that I need to realistically even guess about which of them work best - or even in what kind of setups, really.

Anyway, I am still learning about Chelates, and I am quickly coming to the conclusion that they are a necessary evil in Organic Hydro nutes.

In a week you'll probably know more than I do about them because it seems like one of those "important concepts to know.". I pretty much stated what I knew about them in my other post. Properly-chelated nutrients are more likely to remain dissolved in suspension instead of precipitating out (which might not be a problem for the plants, but as you observed in the past, can be a nightmare when the grower is using small-diameter lines/orifices). It also keeps two or more components from reacting with each other. Probably much more important when dealing with nutrients/et cetera that are more of the "metallic salt-based" variety than with "organic" ones, but still.

All I can say is that I was real excited when I read about Iguana Juice, and the other Hydro Organic lines from AN. I can not wait to see how they work out in my garden, as I am trying really hard to achieve the closest thing to 100% Hydro Organics I possibly can.

AN is very likely to be the #1 brand for stirring feelings of excitement, lol. Maybe that's got something to do with the way I regard them; say you're just some guy (gal? IDK and it's not important) who's never grown cannabis - or possibly never grown anything - before but who's decided you want to... You walk into a hydroponics shop and there's 15 different product lines but one's in-your-face and from looking at the labels you'd almost think that you could bring it home, mix it up, pour it on a seed and the seed would turn into a pile of buds. I'd be happier to see that new grower start with something simpler (and cheaper) that's been around long enough that there are many different recipes/methods available (most of which work to one degree or another) and that the grower can also use to grow just about any other plant for decoration, medicinal use, food, et cetera (I suppose that the AN line could be used for all of that too, don't get me wrong). The grower can purchase a much cheaper line, maybe something with two or three different main components that will work ok by themselves and related optional supplements that may be of benefit if/when the grower feels ready. He/she can then safely learn the concepts that would be applicable to any method/style/nutrient and do so cheaply. If he/she does well, he/she (es?) will have some idea that there may be better - or at least better in one way or another - brands/lines out there, and es might be likely to experiment with them in the future, perhaps even using them and their original brand on clones from the same mother to see for themselves not only which produces the most, but which best fits the style that they are developing. And if something happens and the grower is not happy with es first harvest, es knows that there are other possibilities out there. But if es started with the most expensive stuff and still couldn't have a satisfactory harvest, es just might get disappointed and find another hobby.

Yeah, I guess such an attitude does make me a little prejudiced. I'll try to keep that in mind in the future.

I am just a little worried about the rumors I am hearing though... That is while Hydro Organics will definitely make your harvests taste much better than "Chem Nutes" ), the yields are substantially smaller, and the harvests could take a little longer than normal.

IDK if the harvests would have to take longer to get to. As for the others (both the positives and negatives), a lot of that probably would have to do with tailoring the grow so that everything works well together instead of trying to make one part - be it the nutrients or something else - work with a setup that would be best served by using a different thing. For example, I've read that a lot of organics work best with microbial life. Maybe to break down ingredients which might not be already broken down into a form that the plants can immediately uptake and use? But if a reservoir contains such life and someone like me comes along... I like mad levels of aeration and the resultant super-saturated levels of dissolved oxygen in my reservoirs. If I tried to run such a system with, say, General Organics (again, not recommending that line, I've just seen it happen with it), I'd quickly end up with extreme amounts of foam and probably a runaway population of micros because I'd have a great environment for them with none of the natural checks and balances. So if I wanted to use GO, I'd need to modify my growing method accordingly.

Hope to talk to you about this stuff again sometime, Bro!

It would be a pleasure. Make sure to remind me when I'm being long-winded. Speaking of which, I better stop typing now.

 

[Thew1sest]

My .02 cents!!! I stick generally with Lucas Formula with Advanced Nutrients Sensi Bloom and have nothing bad to say. I think for the most part getting opinions on nutrients here is like asking who the best team in the NFL is you'll get 50 different answers why it's so fun! But there are excellent journals and reviews of past growers comparing and using most nutes mentioned above.

 

[Trunk5]

ok well i know not all are in favor of these nutes high pricing, propaganda, or what ever your gripe may be this isnt a post about that. this is just a list that i know of that are advanced nutrients organic products. all others will have some sort of synthetic substance.

Base : organic iguana juice grow/bloom

organic B1

benificial microbes : taranchula , piranha, voodoo juice

sensizym

grandma enggy's - F1 - H2

bud ignitor

bud factor x

bud candy

nirvana


i priced all this out at about $600 from my local hydro store... i dont work for them and im not promoting them so please dont flame me, i just knew about this info and wanted to share it so anyone who does use there product understands whats what.