Organic LST Outdoor Grow

[santacruzbluz]

Sorry to hear about the damage, but it appears healing is underway, and that's a good thing. That's a very impressive hemp plant. I'm looking forward to seeing the harvest.

You know, you might even take some of your twine and wrap it in a way to pull the two sides of the break towards each other, to close it up, maybe going 6 inches or so above the break and wrapping around the two branches. Does that make sense? That might give more support in case of another weather event.

 

[santacruzbluz]

Like the cat in the garden in the first pic. Whenever I go to my garden, all three of my cats want to come in and hang out.

 

[GreenLove]

Thats kinda what I did with that tree wrap. I bound the spilt on the main stalk below the split and used the pruning seal on whatever was exposed. Its really hard to get that deep into the plant. You have to "part the seas" and support the plant, step in, wrap it...all without falling on it and stepping on anything. With the wet weather I also worry about mold under the bandage. The humidity in the canopy is considerably higher than the surrounding area. This all kinda goes along with my organic methods. I expect some loss. Whether it is due to weather or insect damage...with the organic methods outdoors, some loss is inevitable.

Unfortunately right now the weather is going from one extreme to the next. Rain and low 80's one day....112 with full summer desert sun the next. The healthy section takes it. Yesterday, the yellow section completely wilted. I thought I was gonna have to prune that whole branch off. It is the left side of the small split. I got a good look not that long ago and it perked back up over night. No telling what it will do today. If it is strong enough to not die but not strong enough to produce good buds (which is what I figure) I will just use that for hash oil 100%

This is my first attempt at such a large outdoor grow and my first attempt at LST in the ground. From my observations it is really hard to predict what the plant will do and how it distributes its nutrients. I have watched it grow at different rates all over. No one section ever being the "top" of the plant. The shade cloth promoted different growth rates as well. It caused some stretching (not surprising) but has kept direct sun and the related heat from beating up the plant. Believe me, the desert sun is so strong. I watch real hardy plants in my garden suffer thru the hottest parts of the summer every year.

Since I planted it I have trimmed and pruned that plant to be as even as it is. I removed huge 12" long stems and had handfuls of beautiful healthy plant that I just threw into the compost pile. I hear people say this screws with the plants hormones and causes decrease in yield ect. If I hadnt removed so much though that thing would be as tall as the block fence behind it. I did not want that. This was all about a low key grow to support my own medical needs till next season.

One of the biggest things I noticed was flowering and LST/pruning. This was planted as seed around the last week of Feb. Everything else in my garden that was planted around the same time grew to around 18" tall and completed the bud cycle by the end of April to mid May. I believe that my pruning and training prevented the plant from going into bud as the light at the time was still 'round the 12/12 time. By April the plants in bud were at 13-14hr daylight.

Sorry for the long winded post but I have not really read anything similiar so I just want to document my observations for all to read.

 

[Odin]

This is my first attempt at such a large outdoor grow and my first attempt at LST in the ground. From my observations it is really hard to predict what the plant will do and how it distributes its nutrients. I have watched it grow at different rates all over. No one section ever being the "top" of the plant. The shade cloth promoted different growth rates as well. It caused some stretching (not surprising) but has kept direct sun and the related heat from beating up the plant. Believe me, the desert sun is so strong. I watch real hardy plants in my garden suffer thru the hottest parts of the summer every year.

Sorry to hear about your weather woes. Mother nature likes to fuck with us sometimes, I am convinced of it. Cannabis is a hardy plant, it won't slow it down too much.

For your first attempts, you appear to be doing excellent. There is always a level of unpredictability, be it speed of growth or attributes across different strains. When you get into larger scale plant outdoor growing like this, there will be no "true" top. Just lots, and lots of massive topS. You are doing a good job of keeping the plant large, but low and bushy. Not to mention you don't need a step ladder to handle the upper branches and colas.

Since I planted it I have trimmed and pruned that plant to be as even as it is. I removed huge 12" long stems and had handfuls of beautiful healthy plant that I just threw into the compost pile. I hear people say this screws with the plants hormones and causes decrease in yield ect. If I hadnt removed so much though that thing would be as tall as the block fence behind it. I did not want that. This was all about a low key grow to support my own medical needs till next season.

One of the biggest things I noticed was flowering and LST/pruning. This was planted as seed around the last week of Feb. Everything else in my garden that was planted around the same time grew to around 18" tall and completed the bud cycle by the end of April to mid May. I believe that my pruning and training prevented the plant from going into bud as the light at the time was still 'round the 12/12 time. By April the plants in bud were at 13-14hr daylight.

Sorry for the long winded post but I have not really read anything similiar so I just want to document my observations for all to read.

While I think heavy leaf pruning has potential to slow the plants down a little bit, I don't think its enough to warrant not doing at least some leaf pruning. Cropping is vital to keeping plants low and bushy and definitely does slow the plant down a little, but typically not more than a few days to a week at the very most. Even taking 12" branches, it should recover relativly quick. Then it can easily speed up again. While I am not 100% on this, it does appear that it can prolong the outdoor growing season. I have never started outdoors in Feb. however, so I don't know about that. Where I am from, standard outdoor season is around April-May to October-November. Varies depending on the winter and summer. They have been wacky lately.

Not a long winded post at all. I am enjoying your observations and you include important details. Outdoor growers seem to be a bit out numbered on this site hehe

Keep up the good work!

 

[GreenLove]

After watching the plant on and off all day I decided to prune half of the damaged branch. I felt that the plant was putting the energy into keeping the right hand side alive. The leaves might have perked up again in the morning but why keep a dying branch alive?

The open space allowed me to LST some of the taller branches to fill in the void left by removing the one section. It also allowed me access into the canopy to prune smaller "sucker" stems and remove yellowing/dead leaves that had built up. One thing about this LST canopy. Inside the light still does not penetrate and I have been ending up with the older leaves yellowing and dropping off. But on a 5-6 month old plant, that does not really concern me.

Here are the pics...

dying section....

pruned section....

the aftermath....

trained one branch down to fill in....

second branch LST'd in gap....

final result for today....

With at least three weeks left in the veg season I think I can fill in some of that gap mostly by allowing the tighter sections of the plant to fill in and spread out. I figure half of the branch is better than losing the whole section...that was my final answer before I cut.

 

[GreenLove]

board is in area that I pruned to remove the dyiing branch

view looking down into area that was removed then had two branches tied down to fill in gap/reduce overall plant height

current view of split stalk with repair

side view

overall dimensions right now: 5'Wx 6.5'L x 4'H all taken at the largest points.

It recovered really well considering. I believe all the organics and love played big part. It really comes down to the health of the roots and the ability of the plant to repair itself and continue to feed that damaged section. It is starting to bud now. I figure eight weeks from this point. I have started feeding the flowering nutes. The last tea I brewed also had high amounts of bone meal (6-9-0) and Indonesian bat guano
(0.5-12-0.2) so I hope that it is breaking down in the soil right now. The thick layer of worm castings and compost (from my home compost pile) should help with that. Then I have been using Botanicare Pro-bloom fruit and flower for soil along with mollasses. The last week I have also been continuing the foliar feeding with botanicare.

The leaves have been covered in dipel dust again for the last few days due to a caterpillar showing up. There was one munched leaf. Turning over the leaves and looking under them, I found the single dude chowing down. I removed him and applied the dust. Nothing further has shown up. The ants are unrelenting. I do not want to apply heavy pesticides until after harvest. This way the ground can wash it out before I plant my next crop...which in this spot wont be until next March again. I may use the space for potted plants which can be moved indoors/outdoors to make good use of the sun. It is a pain to do that but the results are great.

Enjoy..and as always, comments are welcome and appreciated

 

[santacruzbluz]

Sorry to hear about the branch, but it appears the plant will be fine, and that section will probably fill back in so you can't even tell you took some out. Still an incredible plant.

Five of my plants have started flowering, with four that haven't shown a sign of wanting to flower yet. Sativas, no doubt.

I have a question. When y'all talk about molasses, are you just talking about molasses you buy at the grocery store?

 

[GreenLove]

Sorry to hear about the branch, but it appears the plant will be fine, and that section will probably fill back in so you can't even tell you took some out. Still an incredible plant.

Five of my plants have started flowering, with four that haven't shown a sign of wanting to flower yet. Sativas, no doubt.

I have a question. When y'all talk about molasses, are you just talking about molasses you buy at the grocery store?

Yep. Unsulphured. Blackstrap molasses. Probably the reason the ant problem is bad this year. But the last plants I did this to smoked so good compared to plants I didnt use molasses on.

 

[santacruzbluz]

Yep. Unsulphured. Blackstrap molasses. Probably the reason the ant problem is bad this year. But the last plants I did this to smoked so good compared to plants I didnt use molasses on.

Thanks! I guess I better try it out. How much and how often?

 

[GreenLove]

To be honest I dont really measure it. One Tbs per gal may be a good starting point.

I really dont measure or keep track of how much of anything I use. Thats one of the thing about an outdoor organic grow. I really try to go by how the plant looks, what its doing, what I feel it needs. I do tend to follow the directions on the boxes/bottles of ferts for application rates though. But not always. Sorry I cant be a little more specific.

nice shot of the canopy

 

[santacruzbluz]

No worries. I did some Googling. Seems like a lot of people use a tablespoon or two per gallon. I'm going to get some and give it a try.

 

[GreenLove]

Tradgedy. The ant invasion was worse than I thought. I have lost 2/3rds of the plant. I would wake up in the morning and everything would be fine. Then by mid afternoon an entire branch would suddenly wilt and die. All that is left is the main stalk. Anything that was LST'd to the sides has died and been pruned off.

As a last resort to try to save the plant I resorted to pesticides. It is more of an experiment at this point to see what the plant can take and to see if I can get rid of the ants. I never would have guessed that they could be so destructive. I think that the stress of being split by that storm coupled with high heat and ants caused it to die. I also noticed that the die off was occurring on days where the temps were over 108-110.

I think the ant invasion came from my squash patch as they were all over the vines. When I removed the vines (since the season was over) they needed somewhere else to go. Well, my big green was right next door and she took the brunt. The hard part was tracking down their mound. I would find it, apply pesticides and like any good ant colony they would pop up somewhere else. That is the reason I has to resort to liquid pesticides to cover the entire area rather than the spot treatment. I also believe that the ants were attracted to the molasses in the teas I used.

Any one have any idea what they were eating off the plant? I never saw leaf or bud damage but they were all over every branch and running up and down from top to bottom. The little bastards never touched the ground either. They ran around on my lattice and avoided all the granule poisons.

Overall it has been very disappointing. The plant was just heading into bud. That may have been a triger as well. The branch that split hurt the nute delivery to the rest of the plant. Oh well. This is the deal with organics. Losses are to be expected. I do have multiple raised gardens with a few plants sprinkled in here and there as well as some potted ones. So a total loss is not something I am looking at. It sure was a beautiful plant. Next season! When I do plant in ground next year it will be in a raised bed where I can apply chemical pesticides to the base of the raised bed to prevent insect invasion.

I will post some pics of this heart breaker when I get a chance.

Thanks to all who followed along!

 

[Captain Kronic]

Greenlove... that is a sweetie of a plant... CHEERS! I did some LST this Summer although I stopped it once I had what I wanted as for looks and body.
I am working a strain this year that seems quite brittle, I don't think they particularly like the LST.
Best of luck in the future and thanks for sharing!

 

[Odin]

Tradgedy. The ant invasion was worse than I thought. I have lost 2/3rds of the plant. I would wake up in the morning and everything would be fine. Then by mid afternoon an entire branch would suddenly wilt and die. All that is left is the main stalk. Anything that was LST'd to the sides has died and been pruned off.

As a last resort to try to save the plant I resorted to pesticides. It is more of an experiment at this point to see what the plant can take and to see if I can get rid of the ants. I never would have guessed that they could be so destructive. I think that the stress of being split by that storm coupled with high heat and ants caused it to die. I also noticed that the die off was occurring on days where the temps were over 108-110.

I think the ant invasion came from my squash patch as they were all over the vines. When I removed the vines (since the season was over) they needed somewhere else to go. Well, my big green was right next door and she took the brunt. The hard part was tracking down their mound. I would find it, apply pesticides and like any good ant colony they would pop up somewhere else. That is the reason I has to resort to liquid pesticides to cover the entire area rather than the spot treatment. I also believe that the ants were attracted to the molasses in the teas I used.

Any one have any idea what they were eating off the plant? I never saw leaf or bud damage but they were all over every branch and running up and down from top to bottom. The little bastards never touched the ground either. They ran around on my lattice and avoided all the granule poisons.

Overall it has been very disappointing. The plant was just heading into bud. That may have been a triger as well. The branch that split hurt the nute delivery to the rest of the plant. Oh well. This is the deal with organics. Losses are to be expected. I do have multiple raised gardens with a few plants sprinkled in here and there as well as some potted ones. So a total loss is not something I am looking at. It sure was a beautiful plant. Next season! When I do plant in ground next year it will be in a raised bed where I can apply chemical pesticides to the base of the raised bed to prevent insect invasion.

I will post some pics of this heart breaker when I get a chance.

Thanks to all who followed along!

Noooo......

I have to admit, this took me by suprise... I am familiar with ant damage to roots and the soil around your plant, but they are actually "attacking" the plant itself? Can you get some pictures of these ants and their activity on the plant? I have never experienced that in any of my or other outdoor grows. Last year my corn was destroyed by ants, but they never even bat an eye at my ganja plants.

Really sorry to hear the news... lets hope we can figure this out and still pull through to the end... such a beautiful plant to go to waste..

 

[GreenLove]

Odin...
I cant for the life of me figure out what they were after. But I can't deny that it was healthy even after the split until the ants invaded. I could'nt see any damage from them. Their numbers just increased and they were all over the plant. The ants were all over the main stalk and went from there to the tops of the buds. I observed them coming out of the split where I had not gotten any pruning seal, yet when I pruned the dead branches there were no ants inside. I was thinking carpenter ants but I am not really sure.

I have tried Spectracide granules for fire ants, that didnt work. Next I applied Triazicide which I thought would be the end for them...nope. Today I applied Ortho home defence max to the perimeter of the shade structure and all the potted plants that are under it as well. I have noticed that my mint, oregano, and a few tomato plants that are in pots had these little guys living in them.

I dont know. Root damage from the ants? I suppose that is the only unanswered area. I never really probed the soil to see. The weird thing is they never ran to the ground from the main stalk. They ran all over the LST branches. They used the lattice from the flagstone, ran up from the stone (never touching the dirt) walked across from one end to the other (keep in mind the plant was 6 feet across) and ran down the lattice on the other side using the leaves that were up against the lattice.

We also had some squash bugs all over but they were never on the MJ. I did find their eggs constantly on the MJ though. They also reeked havoc on my watermelon patch. My corn and black eyed peas did not suffer insect damage or attack. There is also oleanders in the same bed. Lots of variety for cover is what my goal was for all that.

It pains me to use so much insecticide. I dont have much recourse. I used "organic" pesticides as much as possible but I think that is the biggest downfall of all organics. Invasions are hard to stop once in full force like these ants. I honestly thought the whole plant was going to die today. But its still there. Pics in the morning. I was so busy running all over today getting more supplies for the next crop. I will be doing veg indoors for one month then outdoors for flower all winter. Everything will be in pots. I have had my best luck with that. This was my first attempt for a season long in ground plant.

For this season I had aphid attacks in spring, worm attacks on and off all year, and lastly the ants and squash bugs ( the latter I never saw feeding on the MJ.) I used neem oil and organocide on the aphids only to really find that a hose and water works best. I used dipel dust for the worms which worked great as well as physical removal. I tried diatomaeous earth for ants and we all know how that turned out.

Once again....sorry for such a long post but I just want it all out there for a best possible solution for the next crop. I will be using that area as a cold frame for the few winter nights we do get a freeze.

 

[GreenLove]

all that remains....

best view of storm damage and pruning

So.....this morning the garden smells of poison but the ants have finally departed. I picked up some of the smaller containers and banged them on the ground and no ants fell out of the drain holes. A little late, lesson learned.

That storm damage started it all rolling downhill. If I had supported the plant from above a few days earlier when it was suggested I may have avoided it all. I did notice as Oldschooler said that some branches were brittle and did not like to LST. Overall the plant took to it just fine but I may have not exactly done LOW STRESS to those branches early on which may have been a clue. But that was back in April and the plant was small. I also topped quite a bit to keep it low ( I did not want dirtfarmer monsters) which it seems made quite a thick undergrowth and small spindley branches.

At this point I can second guess everything I did. It was near success. Just have to apply that to the next go 'round. The only other major loss I suffered was at the beginning of summer with a 3 month old plant the was LST'd in a 18 gal rubbermaid container. The sun torched the sides and baked the roots on the one of the first days of summer and it never recovered.

With that in mind...anyone growing in the desert needs to use large containers over 22" in diameter to help insulate the roots. I know others grow in the desert but do not use the shade cloth....if any of you are reading...please chime in as to your methods. I am talking about USDA zone 9-10 with sustained temps of 107-112 degrees for over four months.

Thanks for the support

 

[Odin]

Hmmm. I don't have any experience with Fire Ants (they can't hang with the colder N. CA temps so they stay in So Cal) but the root damage I spoke about was caused by carpenter ants. Basically, unlike termites, carpentar ants don't eat wood. They can't bore into solid wood like a termite can. However, they like rotting wood, and sometimes beneath the ground they will have strongholds that have spread over from a long burried log or a soft, woody area of soil, perhaps next to your bed. As their nest expands, they can and will eat (bad term, cuz they dont actually eat wood, just excavate nests through it) through roots of any plants, not just ganja to expand their garden. All of a sudden one day the plant falls over and low and behold, there is a giant carpenter ant nest underneath. I have also seen this with some small termites we have in the hills of CA, but I only ever saw that happen once and I think it was because my friend used old, old wooden planks to build his grow beds... and they were a magnent to termites which then proceded to munch the tasty bud roots. Same thing, plant falls over, termite nest underneath.

Fire ants have been know to do vast crop damage in search of supplies for winter. What exactly they'd want from a cannabis plant is beyond me. In fact, I'd have expected them to do far more damage to your veggies than your herb.

If you are able to get any pictures of these little buggers, maybe at the least we can figure out a way to be proactive about this next year.

 

[GreenLove]

here is one of the little guys on a black eyed pea bush that is next to the MJ. Appear to be just chewing on the plant for the juices

 

[Odin]

here is one of the little guys on a black eyed pea bush that is next to the MJ. Appear to be just chewing on the plant for the juices

Let me dig into my insect library and see what kind of ant that is. How large would you say they are? Looks to be much smaller than an inch. Also, what state are you in?

 

[GreenLove]

I've been looking for a positive ID on them for a few days. But there are a variety of ants that live in AZ and narrowing them down is tough. I would say they are between 1/16"- 1/8" tops. Some sort of harvester ant is my guess. I have carpenter ants in my orange tree not far away. They are definately not fire ants. Too large for that and these guys live under my flagstone so I never see a true mound. They do remove the sand from under the flagstone and seem to be able to dig through the grout around the edges of the flag since some if it has settled over the years.